UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #501
If I recall correctly the letter was penned by a right handed person using their left hand.

I personally can’t see JC doing this, he clearly has no empathy with his victims, and this goes against what appear to come naturally to JC.

Again if I’m remembering this correctly an article in the press said that someone else had owned up the the Sandra Court murder.

It’s all very confusing because where she was dumped has JC’s MO all over it.
On other very distant possibility is that JC had an accomplice and it was that person who penned the note.
Just a few ideas on the subject.
sandra court was abducted on what would have been SLP 25th birthday.
 
  • #502
Agree (and welcome to the discussion BTW). However, as DV points out, you really would think someone would have asked MG and colleague how they had got into the property to look for SJL if she really had gone there taking the keys. There is not a single contemporary mention of there being multiple sets, it wasn't normal practice to have more than one, and if there were still a set in the office, who was it who asserted that this was the extra set out of two that they had for that property? Who swore to that off the top of their head?

The next problem is that HR did not say he saw SJL; he said he saw a blonde and a man who was about 5'8" or 9" emerging from the house. It was the police who said this was SJL. How were they emerging if she didn't have the keys? If she did, well, did she leave any prints? The perp could have walked around not touching anything, but someone had to open doors, and if it wasn't him, it was her. Yet we never hear that there was fingerprint evidence proving a visit by her. If there are no prints then she was never inside, which means HR cannot have seen her emerging.

The other witness usually cited, ND, said he saw a couple but it could have been 4pm. HR identified a 44-year-old Belgian as Mr Kipper. Taken together it looks IMO like HR has no idea what he saw or when he saw it, and that ND probably saw the search party, MG and colleague, not SJL herself.

Another strike against the involvement of the 5'8" man supposedly seen outside is that the Fiesta's seat was found pushed all the way back. A man of that height would not need to do this IMO. If he did, then given that this is the average male height, it would mean that 50% of males would find the front seat of a Fiesta cramped. From what I recall of small cars, the front seats fit anyone and it's the occasional seats in the back where space is saved. So the driver of the car probably wasn't anyone of the height of the man supposedly seen outside 37SR.

Cannan was never put on an ID parade and the case against him (that the CPS does not buy) consists of insinuation and perfect recall decades after the fact. The only bit of "evidence" that he was involved is the opinion of some police officers that one of the artists' sketches looks like him.
yes, HR went to belgium to ID kiper who was innocent. he was telling the press what they wanted to hear because they gave him a holiday taking him away. it was weird.
 
  • #503
Isn’t it likely that DL visited HR and coerced him into changing his story to get a higher police focus? I’m sure MG would have done this on DL’s behalf.

CV from the PoW said he was surprised at the amount of police focus on the disappearance of an adult, a child okay, but so much effort so soon?

It doesn’t explain why he picked out the diamond dealer, after all he looks nothing like the police sketch.
All in all it completely undermines him as a witness.

If we face facts (and the polices MB said this) all we know for sure is that SJL left her office at approximately 12.40pm and her abandoned car was found at 10.03pm.

We know both else related to what happened in between these times.

Sadly the mileage covered by her car on the 28th July won’t have been logged. Back then keeping a detailed record for tax purposes was not as focused as it became in later years.
 
  • #504
Isn’t it likely that DL visited HR and coerced him into changing his story to get a higher police focus? I’m sure MG would have done this on DL’s behalf.

CV from the PoW said he was surprised at the amount of police focus on the disappearance of an adult, a child okay, but so much effort so soon?

It doesn’t explain why he picked out the diamond dealer, after all he looks nothing like the police sketch.
All in all it completely undermines him as a witness.

If we face facts (and the polices MB said this) all we know for sure is that SJL left her office at approximately 12.40pm and her abandoned car was found at 10.03pm.

We know both else related to what happened in between these times.

Sadly the mileage covered by her car on the 28th July won’t have been logged. Back then keeping a detailed record for tax purposes was not as focused as it became in later years.
what about the client requirement card that SLP did not fill out for mr kipper. in AS book it says the normal procedure when clients book a viewing is to fill out this card, location, price willing to pay, etc, but SLP did not take mr kipper details suggesting she may have made up the name herself. i wonder did SLP fill out a client requirement card for her 6pm viewing. this being joanna viewing 43 waldermar. it would be interesting to know if she took her details or not.
 
  • #505
what about the client requirement card that SLP did not fill out for mr kipper. in AS book it says the normal procedure when clients book a viewing is to fill out this card, location, price willing to pay, etc, but SLP did not take mr kipper details suggesting she may have made up the name herself. i wonder did SLP fill out a client requirement card for her 6pm viewing. this being joanna viewing 43 waldermar. it would be interesting to know if she took her details or not.
DV picks up on this, no client card, no property details and no keys taken for 37 SR, conclusion, SJL never went there.
This is supported by the fact that the big boss was visiting the office that day and she needed a reason to leave the office.
While he logically thinks she went to the PoW, there are more options open for consideration.
SJL wanted to keep a personal appointment and it didn’t necessarily involve the PoW pub.
 
  • #506
While he logically thinks she went to the PoW, there are more options open for consideration.
SJL wanted to keep a personal appointment and it didn’t necessarily involve the PoW pub.
Especially as someone who knew her reported seeing her driving along Fulham Palace Road.
 
  • #507
Especially as someone who knew her reported seeing her driving along Fulham Palace Road.
If we put DV’s narrative regarding what SJL did before she left the office and why she made a bogus appointment. Then add the BW sighting at approximately 2.45pm on FPR we have around 2 hours to account for.
IMO SJL had an important appointment she wanted to keep and whoever she went to meet she comfortably spend 2 hours with.
Again if BW is correct things may have started to go wrong when her perpetrator realised he’d been seen with her (hence SJL turning her head away and not acknowledging BW).
Given SJL’s car was back in Stevenage Road by 5.00pm that leaves around 2 hours for the perpetrator to reach his destination, secure or murder SJL and abandon her car by 5.00pm (maybe earlier).
Her car was (by appearances) abandoned in a hurry, this suggests that the perpetrator may have needed to return to where SJL was as quickly as possible.
This suggests that only one perpetrator was involved, if we had mileage records we’d be able to estimate approximately where her car was going, you can guess using time.
As I’ve said before there are lots of narratives, all workable, but IMO you need to look at what facts we have, and which witnesses are the most reliable.
 
  • #508
The BW sighting at 2:45, would it not be logical for her to have been shown photofits which would have included JC, and not being able to identify him, hence another reason the C PS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.
 
  • #509
The BW sighting at 2:45, would it not be logical for her to have been shown photofits which would have included JC, and not being able to identify him, hence another reason the C PS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.
As far as I recall BW said on YouTube that she didn’t get a clear view of the male passenger.
However, he wasn’t to know this.

Also, as the police didn’t check on recently released sex offenders JC (and any others for that matter) didn’t appear on the police radar at the time.
 
  • #510
As far as I recall BW said on YouTube that she didn’t get a clear view of the male passenger.
However, he wasn’t to know this.

Also, as the police didn’t check on recently released sex offenders JC (and any others for that matter) didn’t appear on the police radar at the time.
The reporter asked did you recognise the man, she answered no.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
Last edited:
  • #511
The reporter asked did you recognise the man, she answered no.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
On this basis it wasn’t Mr Kipper, the police would have asked her that.
SJL was very secretive, as I under stand it BW was one of the “Putney Set”. So if she didn’t recognise the male passenger it wasn’t one of SJL’s close friends.
My speculation is that given the direction her car was travelling the male passenger could have been JC.
 
  • #512
DV picks up on this, no client card, no property details and no keys taken for 37 SR, conclusion, SJL never went there.
This is supported by the fact that the big boss was visiting the office that day and she needed a reason to leave the office.
While he logically thinks she went to the PoW, there are more options open for consideration.
SJL wanted to keep a personal appointment and it didn’t necessarily involve the PoW pub.
what about MG being in the office when SLP took the keys. DV thinks he was out dining with MS, the big boss, but i think he was in the office when she took the keys and paperwork to 37 shorrolds rd. i dont believe the keys were still in the office. i think she took them. sadly i dont think we will ever know the truth after 37 yrs. DV just jumps to conclusions that are not backed up by facts.
 
  • #513
This was in the Independent a few years ago - pre-DV. You can read it for free by getting a try-out login, but I've posted it here to save others the faff.

It's just the usual Cannan-dunnit, but interesting in two ways. One is that a lot of it is clearly just made up ("Monday 28 July 1986 was a beautiful, sunny day" - no it wasn't, it was so gloomy they stopped the cricket; "a witness whose testimony appears to have been overlooked by the police at the time" - it wasn't at the time, it was at least three years later - if ever; there's no record of any testimony at all).

The other is that it shows how deep the Cannan story has sunk. It must have a baleful effect on anyone's inclination to come forward with anything much different.

Documentary reveals fresh angle on the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh​

It remains one of the most notorious unsolved cases in UK criminal history. And in a new twist, it seems that vital witness testimony was ignored by police. James Rampton explains​


Friday 12 March 2021 11:09

<p>Suzy Lamplugh vanished into thin air</p>

Suzy Lamplugh vanished into thin air
(Shutterstock)
In 2000, Diana Lamplugh explained to a press conference how the disappearance of her daughter, Suzy, 14 years earlier had shattered her life. “I’m a mother, and I’ve lost part of my body. Part of my body has died.”
These words still carry immense power after all these years and simply intensify the feeling that it is impossible to remain unmoved by the story of Suzy Lamplugh. Her disappearance in 1986 remains one of the most notorious unsolved cases in UK criminal history. Thirty-five years after it happened, it continues to transfix us.
In light of the very sad and shocking case this week of Sarah Everard, another young professional woman who went missing in south-west London, the details of Suzy’s disappearance bear repetition.

RECOMMENDED​

Monday 28 July 1986 was a beautiful, sunny day in south-west London. At 12.40pm, 25-year-old Suzy left her estate agent’s office in Fulham to show a “Mr Kipper” a house that was for sale nearby. She was never seen alive again. It soon became Britain’s biggest missing person investigation and made headlines all over the world. It even attracted an army of clairvoyants and mediums, including Doris Stokes and Uri Geller, who held a conference about the case at the Hammersmith Palais.
However, despite the best efforts of detectives who spent a total of 22 years on the case, Suzy’s body has never been found. She was presumed murdered and was legally declared dead in 1994. No one has ever been arrested or charged with her abduction and murder. Her parents died without ever knowing what had become of their daughter.
A young woman full of life, Suzy had by 1986 already spent one year working as a beauty therapist on the QE2. A sports lover, she had been windsurfing just the day before she vanished.
She epitomised the go-getting attitude of the 1980s, that heady sense that you could do anything you wanted. But, at the very moment when it seemed that the sky was the limit for her, she simply disappeared into thin air. As Diana put it afterwards: “There has not been a single trace of her. Nothing. Just as though she has been erased by a rubber.”


It is this unfathomable nature of this case that still grips us. For the past three-and-a-half decades, the public has been baffled by the central issue: surely people don’t just vanish, especially in broad daylight in one of the busiest cities of the world. Do they?
To mark the 35th anniversary of her disappearance, Sky Crime has produced The Mystery of Suzy Lamplugh, a compelling two-part documentary that goes out on Sunday. The film contains new and exclusive details about the case. These focus on fresh, potentially game-changing information about a witness whose testimony appears to have been overlooked by the police at the time. If this opportunity had been taken, it might have altered the whole course of the case.
The revelation in the documentary centres on John Cannan, the man police described as their only suspect in Suzy’s disappearance. He is a former car salesman, who in July 1988 was found guilty of murder and sexual offences. Having previously served eight years for rape and theft*, Cannan was handed three life sentences for the murder of Shirley Banks in Bristol in October 1987, the attempted kidnapping of Julia Holman on the previous night, and the rape of an unnamed woman in Reading in 1986. The judge recommended that he never be released from prison.
<p>Police in the Lamplugh incident room at Kensington police station. Fresh information suggests police ignored vital witness testimony</p>

Police in the Lamplugh incident room at Kensington police station. Fresh information suggests police ignored vital witness testimony
(Shutterstock)
In spite of police suspicions, Cannan has always denied any involvement in Suzy’s disappearance, and in November 2002 the Crown Prosecution Service announced that there was insufficient evidence to charge him. At the time, Paul Lamplugh, Suzy’s father, said: “We are greatly distressed and indeed angered that, after all these years, it is still not possible to prosecute the person both we and the police believe murdered Suzy.”
In a highly unusual move, later the same month, Scotland Yard declared at a press conference that Cannan is the man they think killed Suzy. His sentence ends in 2024**.
But The Mystery of Suzy Lamplugh has discovered a new angle. It reveals that two years ago a woman called Anne approached retired detective superintendent, Jim Dickie, the officer who led the seven-year reinvestigation of the case from 1999. Anne told him that at 5am on 31 July 1986, a friend of hers called Dave witnessed a man on the towpath dumping a heavy load into the Grand Union Canal at Brentford.
Two years later***, Dave saw a photo in the paper of Cannan, who was then being tried for the murder of Shirley Banks in Exeter. Dave, who died in 2008, took time off work to travel to Exeter and watch the accused in the dock. He was immediately convinced that Cannan was the man he had seen on the towpath.
Anne says that Dave reported the incident from the canal to Brentford police station three times, but his evidence appears to have been ignored. Dickie now says: “If I was still the senior investigating officer, I’d move heaven and earth to see if there was a body in luggage in that area.”

The exasperation clear in his voice, he adds: “Christ, if I’d known that in 2000 and they had known it in 1986, they could have recovered a body. So someone screwed up.”
Steve Anderson, the executive producer of The Mystery of Suzy Lamplugh, is equally frustrated. “If the story that Dave went to Brentford police station three times and was dismissed is true, that’s diabolical. That’s unacceptable. That should never happen again.”
So why, after 35 years, does this case still haunt us? In the opinion of Anne Ashworth, a journalist who covered it at the time: “The disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh sent a shiver down the spine of every young woman because people thought, ‘that could be me’.”
Anderson observes that her disappearance tapped into every family’s deepest fear. “That a young woman can just go missing in the middle of London is the worst nightmare for every parent. Suzy Lamplugh is the embodiment of that.”
<p>The Grand Union canal could hold the secret to Suzy’s disappearance</p>

The Grand Union canal could hold the secret to Suzy’s disappearance
(Shutterstock)
In Dickie’s view, Suzy’s relatability, her very girl-next-door-ness made her disappearance all the more disturbing. “Suzy went to work one morning and never came back. She disappeared off the face of the earth. The case captured everyone’s imagination.
“Certain cases stick in your mind, and this case sticks in your mind because it was front-page news, not just on day one, but for months afterwards. Even to this day, it is still a front-page story, and it will be until the mystery is solved. Suzy was young and attractive, and I think that contributed to it. She was part of the ‘Putney Set’, as they termed themselves. She was an independent, vivacious young woman – who would want to harm someone like that?”
Like it or not, the fact that Suzy was attractive certainly heightened the red tops’ interest in the case. Nick Ross, who presented several Crimewatch episodes about the story, muses that: “Suzy’s disappearance ticked all the media boxes, and probably for the wrong reasons. She was young, she was pretty, she was vivacious, she was a professional.”
The TV presenter, who fronted Crimewatch for 23 years, thinks journalists must bear some responsibility for hyping up the story of Suzy’s disappearance. “It’s my fault, it’s your fault, it’s all journalists’ fault.

Nick Ross, former ‘Crimewatch’ host, says journalists must bear some responsibility for hyping up the story
(Shearwater Media)
“Our job is not to give people a proportionate view of the world. Our job is to get stories, and those stories tend to reinforce a narrative that is already out there.”
The idea of a woman being attacked by a stranger is, he adds, something that, “girls are taught from when they are very young ... That’s why the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh was such a big story.”
The other reason why the Suzy Lamplugh case has remained so high-profile is the fact that the family, quite rightly, have refused to let it fade away. Ross emphasises that, “Diana was determined to keep the case in the public eye. She was absolutely not going to let it drop. She was very anxious to keep the pressure on The Met.”
He maintains that Diana and Paul, who died in 2011 and 2018 respectively, “weren’t looking for vengeance. They absolutely refused to go into a spiral of hatred and anger. They were determined not to fall into the depths of despair. Diana busied herself doing everything she could to resolve the case, but also to stop this happening to other people. She and Paul were extraordinary.”
Anderson, who met Diana a few times and interviewed her in 2001, recollects that, “She was an astonishing woman. She was a no-nonsense, get-on-with-it sort of person. Her son Richard says that his mother was a doer. She was one of those people who would rather be doing something than sitting around impassively.

Paul and Diana Lamplugh show their relief at Scotland Yard after the reopening of the investigation in 2000 into the murder of their daughter
(PA)
“For instance, on the night Suzy went missing, without telling the police, she and her husband dragged their dog down to the riverside at Putney to search for their daughter. There is a very poignant moment in one of the books about the case where Diana is pointing her torch across the Thames, shouting, ‘Suzy, Suzy!’”
The executive producer proceeds to recall that: “On another night, Diana found an old firearm in her garage and took it to Fulham where she was convinced Suzy had been locked up somewhere.”
In a famous TV interview, Anderson carries on: “Sue Lawley asked Diana about the criticism she had received for almost glorying in publicity. Diana replied that, ‘I just wanted to do something. I felt terrible that I couldn’t achieve anything to solve the case. So the best thing I could do was create as much publicity as possible to try and get information to help the police’. Everything Diana did was driven by the desire to find Suzy and to say, ‘God help families this happens to in future’.”
That sense of dignity and resilience has been passed down to Suzy’s siblings, Richard, Tamsin and Lizzie. Anderson comments: “Something so extraordinary can hit you from nowhere and define the rest of your life. The Lamplughs are just ordinary, humble people, but they have carried on remarkably well in the circumstances.”
We say we dislike crime, but we devour stories about it. We have an enormous appetite for it
The Mystery of Suzy Lamplugh also plays into our enduring fixation with true-crime stories. According to Ross: “There is a difficulty about human nature. We say we dislike crime, but we devour stories about it. We have an enormous appetite for it.”
Anderson, who has previously been controller of news, current affairs, arts and religion at ITV, executive producer of Question Time and editor of Watchdog, concurs. “We are fascinated by true-crime stories because they are often very emotional.
“They often involve people who are completely innocent, ordinary people who find themselves in an extraordinary set of circumstances way beyond their control. They’re the sorts of things that could happen to any of us. It’s like a Sliding Doors moment; if you go right instead of left, something terrible will happen to you.”

A forensics team in the back garden of a property on Shipton Road in Sutton Coldfield, where police began a search for the body of Suzy Lamplugh
(PA)
He adds: “If the case is resolved, people like to see bad guys get their comeuppance. But at the same time, you have cases like Suzy Lamplugh, which are still a mystery and haven’t achieved any resolution. There is a feeling that victims should have a voice and need to be heard. We should try to learn lessons from their cases.”
How would any family deal with something like this that comes right out of the blue? It’s absolutely heartbreaking
The fact that the disappearance of Suzy remains unsolved is a continuing source of anguish for the investigating officers. Former detective inspector Peter Johnstone, who worked on the original investigation, emphasises: “If we could have found someone, if we’d enabled the family to give her a Christian burial, I would have been very happy with that. But we weren’t able to do that, and I feel as though we have badly let them down.”
But above all, the documentary arouses huge sympathy for the Lamplugh family. Dickie says: “How would any family deal with something like this that comes right out of the blue? It’s absolutely heart-breaking.
“I completely feel for the family. The Lamplughs deserve closure. They deserve to know where their sibling is, to give her a proper burial, and to grieve properly. Any family deserves to know what happened to their loved ones. That’s a fundamental human right.”
Richard says that until the family know what happened to Suzy, they will be unable to find that closure. “We always think, ‘What if? What if Suze was still alive? What would she be doing? Would she have kids? Who would she be?’
<p>Diana and Suzy Lamplugh. Brother Richard says the family is always wondering ‘what if’</p>

Diana and Suzy Lamplugh. Brother Richard says the family is always wondering ‘what if’
(Shearwater Media)
“We’ve never been able to grieve. You get to the stage where you don’t grieve because you want to stay as positive as possible. You feel sad, but you don’t want to mourn her loss because you don’t want to betray her, you don’t want to think the worst.”
This has clearly been the most appalling tragedy for the Lamplugh family. But at least one positive element has come out of this dreadful case: The Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which was started by her parents in 1996**** to help families going through similar circumstances. It also runs the UK’s National Stalking Helpline and National Personal Safety Day.

Suky Bakher, the chief executive of the trust, says: “Suzy Lamplugh is very much an ambassador for the trust. Anything that we do always starts with Suzy’s story and Suzy’s picture and Suzy’s voice.
“It’s just been absolutely remarkable what the Lamplughs have been able to do, taking something so tragic and putting their energy into an organisation that has had such a positive impact on so many hundreds of thousands of lives. The trust has really driven the Lamplughs’ vision, so that what happened to Suzy never happens to anybody else.”
The trust is Suzy’s legacy. She may be gone, but she will never be forgotten.
‘The Mystery of Suzy Lamplugh’ premieres on Sunday at 9pm and 10pm on Sky Crime and NOW TV. Further information about the Suzy Lamplugh Trust can be found at Suzy Lamplugh Trust
The Suzy Lamplugh Trust operates a National Stalking Helpline: 0808 802 0300.


* incorrect - although he was sentenced to 5 plus 3 years he actually only served just over 4

** incorrect - he became eligible for release in 2023 but this does not means 'ends'

*** incorrect - three years, not two

**** SLT founded 1986, not 1996
 
  • #514
If we put DV’s narrative regarding what SJL did before she left the office and why she made a bogus appointment. Then add the BW sighting at approximately 2.45pm on FPR we have around 2 hours to account for.
IMO SJL had an important appointment she wanted to keep and whoever she went to meet she comfortably spend 2 hours with.
Again if BW is correct things may have started to go wrong when her perpetrator realised he’d been seen with her (hence SJL turning her head away and not acknowledging BW).
Given SJL’s car was back in Stevenage Road by 5.00pm that leaves around 2 hours for the perpetrator to reach his destination, secure or murder SJL and abandon her car by 5.00pm (maybe earlier).
Her car was (by appearances) abandoned in a hurry, this suggests that the perpetrator may have needed to return to where SJL was as quickly as possible.
This suggests that only one perpetrator was involved, if we had mileage records we’d be able to estimate approximately where her car was going, you can guess using time.
As I’ve said before there are lots of narratives, all workable, but IMO you need to look at what facts we have, and which witnesses are the most reliable
If we put DV’s narrative regarding what SJL did before she left the office and why she made a bogus appointment. Then add the BW sighting at approximately 2.45pm on FPR we have around 2 hours to account for.
IMO SJL had an important appointment she wanted to keep and whoever she went to meet she comfortably spend 2 hours with.
Again if BW is correct things may have started to go wrong when her perpetrator realised he’d been seen with her (hence SJL turning her head away and not acknowledging BW).
Given SJL’s car was back in Stevenage Road by 5.00pm that leaves around 2 hours for the perpetrator to reach his destination, secure or murder SJL and abandon her car by 5.00pm (maybe earlier).
Her car was (by appearances) abandoned in a hurry, this suggests that the perpetrator may have needed to return to where SJL was as quickly as possible.
This suggests that only one perpetrator was involved, if we had mileage records we’d be able to estimate approximately where her car was going, you can guess using time.
As I’ve said before there are lots of narratives, all workable, but IMO you need to look at what facts we have, and which witnesses are the most reliable.
why did DS mike barley dismiss the sighting by BW. he thinks she was confused about the day.
 
  • #515
how do you
On this basis it wasn’t Mr Kipper, the police would have asked her that.
SJL was very secretive, as I under stand it BW was one of the “Putney Set”. So if she didn’t recognise the male passenger it wasn’t one of SJL’s close friends.
My speculation is that given the direction her car was travelling the male passenger could have been J
On this basis it wasn’t Mr Kipper, the police would have asked her that.
SJL was very secretive, as I under stand it BW was one of the “Putney Set”. So if she didn’t recognise the male passenger it wasn’t one of SJL’s close friends.
My speculation is that given the direction her car was travelling the male passenger could have been JC.
how do you know she was one of the PUTNEY SET. i have never heard this. i thought she knew her through work.
 
  • #516
IMO it’s incredibly difficult to go from room to room and not leave a trace. You push doors open, touch handrails as you climb stairs and you need to pull the front door closed.
I’d like to think that if fingerprints where found (and there just had to be some) the police would have checked them against everyone SJL knew at the time (or at least her immediate circle of contacts).
Certainly if JC’s had been there we wouldn’t be discussing it now.
it is now, but not in 1986.
 
  • #517
Given that HR said that SJL & Kipper left 37 SR (door closing), it’s totally unforgivable not to have completed a forensic examination and fingerprinted the place.

At the time it was their only lead and a set of fingerprints from a known criminal (or not known) could have become vital evidence.

On this basis IMO the above happened and they found no trace of SJL or Kipper.

However, they still appear to have pursued the kipper narrative regardless.
it was 1986. forensic science was not like today.
 
  • #518
To be clear, it does seem likely that HR saw a couple outside the house. It would be a jaw-dropping clanger if MG went with a female colleague, went back with a male one, met HR and HR then related MG's own previous visit to him without anyone realising that this what was happening. Impossible? probably not, but still unlikely. So one assumes instead that there was a sighting, but it's when you dig into it a bit that the oddities start to emerge.

First, as DV notes and many including DI Johnstone concede, HR did not properly see or ID the woman, only the man. The police said it was SJL, not HR.

Second, this sighting of HR was not - as is often claimed - corroborated by other witnesses; not immediately. Nobody else came forward for a week, so that on Monday 4th the first reconstruction was staged and broadcast, in an effort to jog memories. What was reconstructed was what the police had already decided to have happened. Only when this had gone out did others start to come forward, and those who came forward all broadly agreed with...what they'd seen on TV.

Third, this effort also produced discrepant sightings - men in sharp suits and in scruffy suits, men with a sun tan and without, men with long hair and short, men with a broken nose and without. Some of these were at 123SR and were more or less discarded.

Fourth, HR's account changed, both immediately and later. First he saw her being bundled into a vehicle, then he didn't. At the time Mr Kipper was 25 to 30 and handsome but he later ID'd a nondescript man of 44 as Mr Kipper.

Fifth, the point about fingerprints just discussed. It seems the house was forensicated the next morning; so the police must have known who went inside and if SJL was among them. If she did not, then HR's description, with its detail about a door slamming, falls apart.

Sixth is DV's line of argument that if the keys were still in the office SJL hadn't taken them.

I really don't envy the police their job of trying to make sense of all of that. It is noticeable though that the only version of the Shorrolds visit one ever hears or reads of is the one featuring the Cannan lookalike outside; you never hear of the non-lookalikes also seen, nor whether there is any other evidence that she actually went there.
HR seen a man and woman, but paid more attention to the man. which means he saw a couple outside 37 shorrolds rd.
 
  • #519
To be clear, it does seem likely that HR saw a couple outside the house. It would be a jaw-dropping clanger if MG went with a female colleague, went back with a male one, met HR and HR then related MG's own previous visit to him without anyone realising that this what was happening. Impossible? probably not, but still unlikely. So one assumes instead that there was a sighting, but it's when you dig into it a bit that the oddities start to emerge.

First, as DV notes and many including DI Johnstone concede, HR did not properly see or ID the woman, only the man. The police said it was SJL, not HR.

Second, this sighting of HR was not - as is often claimed - corroborated by other witnesses; not immediately. Nobody else came forward for a week, so that on Monday 4th the first reconstruction was staged and broadcast, in an effort to jog memories. What was reconstructed was what the police had already decided to have happened. Only when this had gone out did others start to come forward, and those who came forward all broadly agreed with...what they'd seen on TV.

Third, this effort also produced discrepant sightings - men in sharp suits and in scruffy suits, men with a sun tan and without, men with long hair and short, men with a broken nose and without. Some of these were at 123SR and were more or less discarded.

Fourth, HR's account changed, both immediately and later. First he saw her being bundled into a vehicle, then he didn't. At the time Mr Kipper was 25 to 30 and handsome but he later ID'd a nondescript man of 44 as Mr Kipper.

Fifth, the point about fingerprints just discussed. It seems the house was forensicated the next morning; so the police must have known who went inside and if SJL was among them. If she did not, then HR's description, with its detail about a door slamming, falls apart.

Sixth is DV's line of argument that if the keys were still in the office SJL hadn't taken them.

I really don't envy the police their job of trying to make sense of all of that. It is noticeable though that the only version of the Shorrolds visit one ever hears or reads of is the one featuring the Cannan lookalike outside; you never hear of the non-lookalikes also seen, nor whether there is any other evidence that she actually went there.
mr kiper from belgium was 37 yrs, but looked 44.
 
  • #520
JD is convinced JC is guilty of killing SjL, did he ever say from where he thought JC abducted or persuaded SL to go with him.
he thinks JC rented a place in london, but does know where. pure speculation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
98
Guests online
2,267
Total visitors
2,365

Forum statistics

Threads
632,715
Messages
18,630,869
Members
243,272
Latest member
vynx
Back
Top