UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

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  • #1,401
yes, but 30 yrs on. events wont be fresh in there minds.

True. But we’re not talking about random witness sightings here, we’re talking about people who were very close to the victim - I’d argue the passing of time makes it easier for such people to talk more openly, particularly now that certain well meaning but overbearing individuals are no longer alive.

The reality is that within AS’s book we find irregularities, and also areas which imo should’ve been probed deeper. AS for instance devotes only a couple of paragraphs to the pub and the behaviour of its then acting landlord (“a curious development which was never satisfactorily explained”, that “left an uneasy feeling”, he writes in chapter 11, before quickly moving on). You don’t need to have read DV’s book to think that in a case with hardly any leads this surely should’ve warranted further investigation.

As @Klclevi alluded to the other day, AS’s hands were probably tied to an extent so perhaps we can excuse a lack of investigative zeal on his part. Still, DV’s book comes in handy as it fills this gap - again, perhaps his conclusion is incorrect, but the evidence he unearthed is incredibly useful.
 
  • #1,402

Hope the link works! New doc on SJL with David Wilson. Nothing new I as far as I can see.
 
  • #1,403
I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I'm making a point that's already been made but wasn't there a theory that "Mr Kipper" was a red herring she wrote in her diary to cover who she was actually due to meet?
Kipper a red herring?

I thought it was a smoked herring.

But apparently:

"Red herrings are salted herrings that turn a reddish colour during the smoking process. They have come to be synonymous with the deliberate false trails that are the stock in trade of ‘who done it’ thrillers."


So red herrings are kippers!

According to a self-styled "crime" guy:

"But I knew that there was a man sometimes known as Kipper who was somehow linked to Shorrolds Road. I kept looking for his name as I typed up this article. I have now found this man, on p126 of Andrew Stephen’s book. He is none other than John Herring and he lived just 15 houses away from No. 37. John had a BMW. He also had a brother Peter, and Peter Herring was a Sturgis customer. Funny old world. Both Herrings were ruled out."


And according to FCA on Websleuths back on 1 August 2021:

"A man Suzy had, had a relationship lived about 14 doors away from 37 Shorrolds Rd. This was a brief relationship. His name is not on the record. He was ruled out.
He was NOT called Herring or Haddock* or anything similar and he was ruled out.
There WAS a man called Herring who owned a BMW, he had a brother who was client of Sturgis and had been on their mailing lists. Both Herrings were ruled out and did not have romantic relationships with Suzy.

Suzy did not know a Haddock and this name doesn't feature at all.
The Herring brothers were known as Kip or Kipper as nicknames.
There was also a journalist in the road called Skipper that Suzy knew, also ruled out.

In a documentary recently it was said that Suzy made up the appointment in Shorrolds road using the name KIPPER as she possibly associated it with the references above, it was familiar in her mind and linked, possibly, to the road by association. It came to mind easily."

*Terryb808 had stated on July 24 2021:

"Why Mr Kipper
  1. Suzy and the Putney set liked to use nicknames.
  2. An old boyfriend lived in Shorrolds Road.
  3. His surname was Haddock, Suzy would have thought Mr Kipper very appropriate."
Just WHO is setting up a smoke-screen here? Very fishy if you ask me. I think we're all floundering on this case at this point in time. Some comments I have read here are a load of pollocks. How many more cod theories can we endure? Is JC the sole suspect or not? Groan!
 
  • #1,404
Brilliant post, but you forgot the serial killer who worked with Suzy, and was rumoured to be known as Skipper.

IIRC the police looked at both names (Kipper and Skipper) although the diary entry seems to clearly show that it's Kipper.

I guess there's also the possibility that Suzy didn't know how to spell Kiper.
 
  • #1,405
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  • #1,406
The thing is, there’s every chance DV’s theory is wrong. But the problem with this case is that assumptions were made on day one and it seems no one ever seriously went, ‘maybe it didn’t happen this way?’ - you can see it in the responses that many of the interviewees give to DV, as if this is the first time in their lives that anyone has ever said, ‘what if Kipper isn’t real, what if she never went to 37SR, what if she went to the pub, etc etc’. Imo the lack of curiosity is bizarre.

The press conference on the Tuesday seems utterly ridiculous with hindsight - there’s not a shred of evidence that a crime has occurred, there’s no murder scene, no body, no ransom demand, not even a robbery, just a name in SL’s appointment diary which looked a bit off… off enough to be fake… fake, and given by an abductor? Or faked by SL herself? At this point no one can possibly say either way but at the press conference Carter gives way to DL (‘I have absolutely no doubt [SL] has been abducted,’ she said), and the rest is history.

Bad enough that they jumped to a conclusion and tried to fit the very little ‘evidence’ they had to support it, but imo it’s absolutely criminal that they fingered Cannan for the crime that they assumed had occurred - without a shred of proof of his involvement - then closed the case. Even worse, this was done in large part at the behest of DL!
you call them assumptions. i call it evidence. there was not much to go on other than the diary entry and time of appointment with mr kipper. SL then took the keys and paperwork to 37SR. we then have the witness statements. not much to go on, but better than nothing.
 
  • #1,407
you call them assumptions. i call it evidence. there was not much to go on other than the diary entry and time of appointment with mr kipper. SL then took the keys and paperwork to 37SR. we then have the witness statements. not much to go on, but better than nothing.

We don’t know if that appointment was legitimate - if it was, no good reason has ever been put forward to explain why Suzy didn’t follow procedure and fill out a card containing the client’s details. We don’t know for certain that Suzy took the keys. The Shorrolds Road witnesses aren’t particularly reliable imo but if we assume they’re correct then we also have to assume WJ’s sighting of Suzy’s car parked in Stevenage Road from 12.45 is incorrect - either way, we’re making assumptions.

The ‘Crime Guy’ link provided by @SteveH is interesting because CG claims “the only place we know that Suzy Lamplugh visited after she left Sturgis is … Stevenage Road”. But we don’t know this? No one knows how her car got there. If she did drive straight to Stevenage Road after leaving Sturgis, then the sightings in Shorrolds Road can’t be correct, and WJ is right.

Would Suzy, having lost her diary and chequebook on the Sunday evening, and having been ‘preoccupied’ the following morning with making plans to retrieve them, then have left her car unlocked with her purse inside on Stevenage Road?

Suzy’s straw hat was found in the vehicle. A woman wearing a straw hat was apparently seen walking along Stevenage Road with a smartly dressed man. If she was then abducted, how did the hat end up back in the car? It’s likely Suzy possessed several hats but would she have had more than one hat to hand in her vehicle?

And then of course there’s the issue of the seat being pushed back, suggesting “a man had driven Susannah Lamplugh’s car to Stevenage Road” (page 15 of AS’s book).

I agree with CG that the entire diary entry was likely fake. But I’m not convinced she went to Stevenage Road either.
 
  • #1,408
Ahh thankyou so much SVS for this.

I will make a request if I can. Thanks again much appreciated.

The only thing I can find is this Dept of the Uni of Texas, who were gifted Brookner's notebooks.

The AS book notes ( for her review?) are listed under the Notebook 'Fraud' 1992. Scroll to see listings.

Maybe a request to the Library? Not sure how accessible they are.

Hi SVS
Thanks again for this - I emailed the Harry Ransom Center and they were most helpful. I had to create an account - , and they can send you up to 100 pages at no cost. The AB notes come to six pages.
AB's handwriting is really hard to understand in parts, at least for me anyway .. I am going to spend tommorow on it in full. I even tried handwriting transcribing platforms but they did not really work. I think its a mattter of getting used to her writing style and then deciphering her words.
Anyway just wanted to say thankyou, and for anyone who may be interested in obtaining the notes for their own personal research also.

Cheers
Klclevi :)
 
  • #1,409
We don’t know if that appointment was legitimate - if it was, no good reason has ever been put forward to explain why Suzy didn’t follow procedure and fill out a card containing the client’s details. We don’t know for certain that Suzy took the keys. The Shorrolds Road witnesses aren’t particularly reliable imo but if we assume they’re correct then we also have to assume WJ’s sighting of Suzy’s car parked in Stevenage Road from 12.45 is incorrect - either way, we’re making assumptions.

The ‘Crime Guy’ link provided by @SteveH is interesting because CG claims “the only place we know that Suzy Lamplugh visited after she left Sturgis is … Stevenage Road”. But we don’t know this? No one knows how her car got there. If she did drive straight to Stevenage Road after leaving Sturgis, then the sightings in Shorrolds Road can’t be correct, and WJ is right.

Would Suzy, having lost her diary and chequebook on the Sunday evening, and having been ‘preoccupied’ the following morning with making plans to retrieve them, then have left her car unlocked with her purse inside on Stevenage Road?

Suzy’s straw hat was found in the vehicle. A woman wearing a straw hat was apparently seen walking along Stevenage Road with a smartly dressed man. If she was then abducted, how did the hat end up back in the car? It’s likely Suzy possessed several hats but would she have had more than one hat to hand in her vehicle?

And then of course there’s the issue of the seat being pushed back, suggesting “a man had driven Susannah Lamplugh’s car to Stevenage Road” (page 15 of AS’s book).

I agree with CG that the entire diary entry was likely fake. But I’m not convinced she went to Stevenage Road either.
she wrote down appointment, so we have to believe its legit.
 
  • #1,410
We don’t know if that appointment was legitimate - if it was, no good reason has ever been put forward to explain why Suzy didn’t follow procedure and fill out a card containing the client’s details. We don’t know for certain that Suzy took the keys. The Shorrolds Road witnesses aren’t particularly reliable imo but if we assume they’re correct then we also have to assume WJ’s sighting of Suzy’s car parked in Stevenage Road from 12.45 is incorrect - either way, we’re making assumptions.

The ‘Crime Guy’ link provided by @SteveH is interesting because CG claims “the only place we know that Suzy Lamplugh visited after she left Sturgis is … Stevenage Road”. But we don’t know this? No one knows how her car got there. If she did drive straight to Stevenage Road after leaving Sturgis, then the sightings in Shorrolds Road can’t be correct, and WJ is right.

Would Suzy, having lost her diary and chequebook on the Sunday evening, and having been ‘preoccupied’ the following morning with making plans to retrieve them, then have left her car unlocked with her purse inside on Stevenage Road?

Suzy’s straw hat was found in the vehicle. A woman wearing a straw hat was apparently seen walking along Stevenage Road with a smartly dressed man. If she was then abducted, how did the hat end up back in the car? It’s likely Suzy possessed several hats but would she have had more than one hat to hand in her vehicle?

And then of course there’s the issue of the seat being pushed back, suggesting “a man had driven Susannah Lamplugh’s car to Stevenage Road” (page 15 of AS’s book).

I agree with CG that the entire diary entry was likely fake. But I’m not convinced she went to Stevenage Road either.
mr kipper did leave SL contact details. he left a phone number and address, but detectives have never revealed them details to the public. them details were held back from the public. i read this in 2 newspapers 3 days after SL disappeared.
 
  • #1,411
We don’t know if that appointment was legitimate - if it was, no good reason has ever been put forward to explain why Suzy didn’t follow procedure and fill out a card containing the client’s details. We don’t know for certain that Suzy took the keys. The Shorrolds Road witnesses aren’t particularly reliable imo but if we assume they’re correct then we also have to assume WJ’s sighting of Suzy’s car parked in Stevenage Road from 12.45 is incorrect - either way, we’re making assumptions.

The ‘Crime Guy’ link provided by @SteveH is interesting because CG claims “the only place we know that Suzy Lamplugh visited after she left Sturgis is … Stevenage Road”. But we don’t know this? No one knows how her car got there. If she did drive straight to Stevenage Road after leaving Sturgis, then the sightings in Shorrolds Road can’t be correct, and WJ is right.

Would Suzy, having lost her diary and chequebook on the Sunday evening, and having been ‘preoccupied’ the following morning with making plans to retrieve them, then have left her car unlocked with her purse inside on Stevenage Road?

Suzy’s straw hat was found in the vehicle. A woman wearing a straw hat was apparently seen walking along Stevenage Road with a smartly dressed man. If she was then abducted, how did the hat end up back in the car? It’s likely Suzy possessed several hats but would she have had more than one hat to hand in her vehicle?

And then of course there’s the issue of the seat being pushed back, suggesting “a man had driven Susannah Lamplugh’s car to Stevenage Road” (page 15 of AS’s book).

I agree with CG that the entire diary entry was likely fake. But I’m not convinced she went to Stevenage Road either.
there is no way SL would wear that straw hat for a viewing. it would be a distraction to the customer.
 
  • #1,412
she wrote down appointment, so we have to believe its legit.

Why do we have to believe it’s legitimate?

mr kipper did leave SL contact details. he left a phone number and address, but detectives have never revealed them details to the public. them details were held back from the public. i read this in 2 newspapers 3 days after SL disappeared.

Interesting. This is something I’ve never come across before. Seems odd AS doesn’t mention this in his book, given how much access to the case files he apparently had?

On the contrary, he wrote (page 29): “The normal procedure when any new client phoned or called in at the Sturgis office was for the negotiator immediately to pull out a card and fill out details of the client’s requirements — location, type of property, price willing to pay, and so on. But Susannah had filled in no such card for a ‘Mr Kipper’.”

Perhaps AS’s book isn’t the authoritative tome on this case after all?

there is no way SL would wear that straw hat for a viewing. it would be a distraction to the customer.

I agree. But if that was Suzy in Stevenage Road then she obviously wasn’t there for a viewing, so it wouldn’t matter.
 
  • #1,413
mr kipper did leave SL contact details. he left a phone number and address, but detectives have never revealed them details to the public. them details were held back from the public. i read this in 2 newspapers 3 days after SL disappeared.
I have never heard this mentioned anywhere before ??
 
  • #1,414
Hi SVS
Thanks again for this - I emailed the Harry Ransom Center and they were most helpful. I had to create an account - , and they can send you up to 100 pages at no cost. The AB notes come to six pages.
AB's handwriting is really hard to understand in parts, at least for me anyway .. I am going to spend tommorow on it in full. I even tried handwriting transcribing platforms but they did not really work. I think its a mattter of getting used to her writing style and then deciphering her words.
Anyway just wanted to say thankyou, and for anyone who may be interested in obtaining the notes for their own personal research also.

Cheers
Klclevi :)
Fabulous work. Good Luck with the deciphering!! :)
 
  • #1,415
Why do we have to believe it’s legitimate?



Interesting. This is something I’ve never come across before. Seems odd AS doesn’t mention this in his book, given how much access to the case files he apparently had?

On the contrary, he wrote (page 29): “The normal procedure when any new client phoned or called in at the Sturgis office was for the negotiator immediately to pull out a card and fill out details of the client’s requirements — location, type of property, price willing to pay, and so on. But Susannah had filled in no such card for a ‘Mr Kipper’.”

Perhaps AS’s book isn’t the authoritative tome on this case after all?



I agree. But if that was Suzy in Stevenage Road then she obviously wasn’t there for a viewing, so it wouldn’t matter.
i dont believe SL was ever on stevenage rd. her car was taken there to maybe give the impression she had been there, but she did not have a viewing there, so there is no reason for her to be there.
 
  • #1,416
I have never heard this mentioned anywhere before ??
AS was probably told by SIO, nick carter not to publish certain details regarding contact details. i was surprised myself when i read it, but it makes sense. mr kipper must have gave an address and phone number or SL would not have gone to the appointment at 37SR.
 
  • #1,417
I have never heard this mentioned anywhere before ??
I think it was the guardian. it was one of the newspapers reporting on SL disappearance in the first week she vanished. check it out. see for yourself. i was surprised myself when i read it.
 
  • #1,418
True. But we’re not talking about random witness sightings here, we’re talking about people who were very close to the victim - I’d argue the passing of time makes it easier for such people to talk more openly, particularly now that certain well meaning but overbearing individuals are no longer alive.

The reality is that within AS’s book we find irregularities, and also areas which imo should’ve been probed deeper. AS for instance devotes only a couple of paragraphs to the pub and the behaviour of its then acting landlord (“a curious development which was never satisfactorily explained”, that “left an uneasy feeling”, he writes in chapter 11, before quickly moving on). You don’t need to have read DV’s book to think that in a case with hardly any leads this surely should’ve warranted further investigation.

As @Klclevi alluded to the other day, AS’s hands were probably tied to an extent so perhaps we can excuse a lack of investigative zeal on his part. Still, DV’s book comes in handy as it fills this gap - again, perhaps his conclusion is incorrect, but the evidence he unearthed is incredibly useful.
the landlord giving new details 1 year on puzzled detectives. i think they thought his mind was playing tricks on him, or he was looking for attention. walter mitty character.
 
  • #1,419
AS was probably told by SIO, nick carter not to publish certain details regarding contact details. i was surprised myself when i read it, but it makes sense. mr kipper must have gave an address and phone number or SL would not have gone to the appointment at 37SR.
Well we don't know for certain that she did in fact go to Shorrolds. And she didn't write the details, if she had been given them, on a client card either. A breach of office protocol at least - was it intentional though? Or just sloppiness/ laziness? Everyone at Sturgis seems to take pains to paint SJL as a pretty much perfect employee, but her actions perhaps tell a different story. Or at least they did on that day in late July 1986.

Can't believe it's been nearly 40 years.
 
  • #1,420
Well we don't know for certain that she did in fact go to Shorrolds. And she didn't write the details, if she had been given them, on a client card either. A breach of office protocol at least - was it intentional though? Or just sloppiness/ laziness? Everyone at Sturgis seems to take pains to paint SJL as a pretty much perfect employee, but her actions perhaps tell a different story. Or at least they did on that day in late July 1986.

Can't believe it's been nearly 40 years.
SL had her lunch break at 1pm, so there is no need to make up a phony appointment at 1245pm. it was so close to her lunch break, it would be pointless anyway.
 
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