UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[rvlvr]

If Suzy can be shown to have never been at the PoW that day then I agree, DV’s *conclusion* will have been conclusively disproven. It wouldn’t alter the reliability of the *evidence* he uncovered prior to reaching that conclusion, though - the two things imo are obviously quite separate. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say.

This case is as much about Mr Kipper as it is Suzy Lamplugh. DV’s research provides a decent basis for us to conclude that Mr Kipper very possibly didn’t exist - at least not in the form of a murderous cold-calling pseudo-house viewer, anyway. And that conclusion can still be correct even if Suzy isn’t buried at or near the pub.

I wonder which bit of the West Midlands the Met will fruitlessly dig up next year at taxpayers’ expense to mark the 40th anniversary?

 

[Klclevi]

If Suzy can be shown to have never been at the PoW that day then I agree, DV’s *conclusion* will have been conclusively disproven. It wouldn’t alter the reliability of the *evidence* he uncovered prior to reaching that conclusion, though - the two things imo are obviously quite separate. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say.

This case is as much about Mr Kipper as it is Suzy Lamplugh. DV’s research provides a decent basis for us to conclude that Mr Kipper very possibly didn’t exist - at least not in the form of a murderous cold-calling pseudo-house viewer, anyway. And that conclusion can still be correct even if Suzy isn’t buried at or near the pub.

I wonder which bit of the West Midlands the Met will fruitlessly dig up next year at taxpayers’ expense to mark the 40th anniversary?

rvlvr: can you familarise me with what the West Midlands means please in terms of geography in the UK please (if thats ok). So he was from that area but he ended up in Bristol which is a fair bit south of there ? (it might not be in the UK we are used to big distances here in Aus between places in the majority of instances if you are living in a rural /regional area its nothing to spend 3-8 hours in the car to get to the closest city, even more, thats 300- up to 1000km )

Can i ask, does anyone know how SB was acutally abducted from the car park at Debenhams? (if that is what i understand to have happened)

 

[Klclevi]

Nor do I, but it still sounds like bu1154it. The PoW was an OK but unremarkable pub, not a wine bar. It was not a convenient Tube journey from the Scrubs either. I tend to be sceptical of anything remembered years after the fact when Cannan was already in the frame.


This is the video in which AL undermines his later claim to DV never to have been there, by saying he went there. This account also doesn't explain how KH found this stuff outside on Sunday night, the night he arrived.


ISTR this has been identified as someone else.


Although the problem with this account is that nobody else mentioned champagne.


You have to be quite careful with this kind of claim because many such arose only years after the fact and there is often a lot of strategic misdirection about what was known when. The idea that Cannan was seen staring in the window of Sturgis is one such. Someone came forward with this "sighting" 14 years after the fact IIRC. The obvious challenge is how this "witness" could be sure of the day and date after 14 years. I'd want to ask him what the newspaper headline was that day, and who his team played the day before, to establish that he has reliably perfect recall. If he had no idea then he made this up after watching the TV.


Very unfortunate indeed.


And he wasn't wrong.


This is why the current case is so feeble. It rests on evidence supposedly received only 14 years later, because it has to. "Look, we've shown it's Cannan, but we never had the evidence at the time." In fact, there were pointers to Cannan before he killed SB - but these can't be cited because they testify to plod ineptitude.


What's kind of bizarre is that at the time of jailing Cannan for the haberdashery shop rape the police did not look into other unsolved rapes in the area. Like the HFSR (that wasn't Cannan) they had a witness here able to defend her attacker. Why on earth was he only jailed for one assault when there was at least one other?

The late 1986 / 1987 case that could have been made against Cannan is that his alibi was lies, his movements were unknown, he was one of X recently-released rapists from three local prisons, when put on an ID parade several witnesses might well have picked him out, he was linkable to a recently sold 2nd hand LHD BMW, and his mate the prison cook had a flat and a lockup a short walk from Shorrolds. That lot would have been enough to recall him to prison to do the other 4 years, and once he's back inside there's the chance to interrogate him at leisure and surface a lot more.

This alternative account of what could have been done and why Cannan probably did it is the one you never hear, because if it had happened, then at least one rape and one murder would have been averted.

So - JCs mate who had the flat , is there any other info on if that was searched or anything? Do you think this person has just stayed silent all these years when there could be something in that? He seemed to have something to say in the earlier documentaries, (he could be deceased of course).

 

[Klclevi]

That's very interesting. So SJL might have gone there socially then, perhaps not with AL. Especially as convenient for home.



I've always thought that was AL bluffing because he was clearly in love with her or strong feelings and she'd seen him on Friday after him being away but apparently they'd not spent the night which tells you a lot about their relationship or lack of. Then she'd cold shouldered him all weekend.

Either there was no phone call and he'd said there was to spare himself the embarrassment of admitting he'd been dumped or to avoid the police thinking he had a motive to off her, or he knows exactly who called who. He couldn't have called her unless she was at home.

absolutely agree.
have so many questions my head is spinning.

I joined WS earlier this year after reading about JCs death in November, knowing about the case for many years , and discovering this site after that. Have learnt so much and valued all opinions because I am certainly no expert !!

So thankyou for all your inputs I so look forward to reading them every day . Yep I wear my heart on my sleeve ha ha

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

rvlvr: can you familarise me with what the West Midlands means please in terms of geography in the UK please (if thats ok). So he was from that area but he ended up in Bristol which is a fair bit south of there ? (it might not be in the UK we are used to big distances here in Aus between places in the majority of instances if you are living in a rural /regional area its nothing to spend 3-8 hours in the car to get to the closest city, even more, thats 300- up to 1000km )

Can i ask, does anyone know how SB was acutally abducted from the car park at Debenhams? (if that is what i understand to have happened)

Town of JC Birth:

Sutton Coldfield - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

County of W Midlands:

West Midlands (county) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wider Region of W Midlands:

West Midlands (region) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hopefully Google map Sutton C to Bristol:

The Royal Town of Sutton Coldfield to Bristol

maps.app.goo.gl

Hth

 

[rvlvr]

rvlvr: can you familarise me with what the West Midlands means please in terms of geography in the UK please (if thats ok). So he was from that area but he ended up in Bristol which is a fair bit south of there ? (it might not be in the UK we are used to big distances here in Aus between places in the majority of instances if you are living in a rural /regional area its nothing to spend 3-8 hours in the car to get to the closest city, even more, thats 300- up to 1000km )

Can i ask, does anyone know how SB was acutally abducted from the car park at Debenhams? (if that is what i understand to have happened)

Yeah, you’re spot on, compared to Australia the distances are really quite tiny. Bristol is just shy of a two hour drive south of Birmingham, so really not far, though as someone who grew up near Birmingham I’ve only ever been to Bristol once, people in the UK definitely don’t see driving distances in the same way that Australians and Americans do.

Sutton Coldfield where he was born and raised is a nice town about a 25 minute drive north of Birmingham and the two are connected by a direct commuter train line, lots of folk travel in to Birmingham from SC for work, shopping, etc. Both Birmingham and SC are part of the West Midlands. He stayed local to this area (he married and lived in Four Oaks which is one stop up the line from SC) until he was jailed in ‘81 and sent to HMP Bristol. I’m not sure if he’d have moved to Bristol after serving his sentence had he not been chasing after his solicitor though, as mentioned by others he served parts of his sentence elsewhere, perhaps he would’ve returned to the Midlands, who knows?

Aside from searching the former home in Sutton Coldfield police have searched locations in Worcestershire a few times. Worcestershire is a county sandwiched between the West Midlands and Bristol. There’s a useful map at the bottom of this BBC article that illustrates where the searches took place:

Suzy Lamplugh disappearance: 'No evidence' following Pershore search

The Metropolitan Police said officers "remain committed to securing justice for Suzy and her family".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[lee sumner]

According to Christopher Berry-Dee and Robin Odell in Prime Suspect on the weekend of Sandra's murder JC was either driven to the Bournemouth area by the Scrubs hostel cook or borrowed his car. Avon & Somerset Police found a pay-and-display ticket amongst Cannan's effects proving this. But Cannan had lied to police and said he had visited Poole twice, but not on this date. He went to the car auctions there. He also used to work for University Cameras in Southampton and knew the New Forest area, where Sandra's belongings were strewn, quite well as he used to walk there and drink at Buckler's Hard = he told the authors about this in one or more of his letters to them.

I don't know when he worked in Southampton but he seems to have had pretty regular use of the cook's car. He may have hired, borrowed or even stolen other cars at the time, including BMWs. He was certainly au fait with the motor trade. And where did he get all his money? His father left him something in his will when he died in February 1985 but he seems to have been spending money like water - such as staying in the best suite in the Avon Gorge Hotel in Bristol on a regular basis on weekends when he was living in Bristol!

Also he had been in a "semi-open" prison (the Verne) in Portland, Dorset, which isn't too far from Bournemouth/Poole, from September 1984 until he was moved to the Wormwood Scrubs hostel in January 1986. Perhaps he had employment/training somewhere in Dorset at this point in his life?

The authors examined the letter from Southampton about Sandra's death and say that there are more than 25 similarities of spacing, style and content with JC's handwriting, despite an obvious attempt to disguise it in the letter by using the left hand. They lent the Dorset cops some of Cannan's letters and the blighters never returned them.

Cannan of course denied any link to Sandra Court but he NEVER acknowledged that he had killed Shirley Banks, although he owned up to some of the rapes and assaults.

I can't give any page numbers as I read the book on the Google Books preview (you know I'm a cheapskate) but you can scroll down and read the whole chapter (ch 4) on Sandra.

Prime Suspect - The True Story of John Cannan, The Only Man the Police Want to Investigate for the Murder of Suzy Lamplugh

'Under that veneer of charm there lies a most evil, violent and horrible side to your character. You should never be at liberty outside of prison walls.' - Mr Justice Drake, Exeter Crown Court, 28 April 1989Before being sentenced to three life terms for the murder of Bristol newlywed Shirley...

books.google.co.uk

JC was found with plenty of money on him. this money was from armed robberies he carried out.

 

[lee sumner]

rvlvr: can you familarise me with what the West Midlands means please in terms of geography in the UK please (if thats ok). So he was from that area but he ended up in Bristol which is a fair bit south of there ? (it might not be in the UK we are used to big distances here in Aus between places in the majority of instances if you are living in a rural /regional area its nothing to spend 3-8 hours in the car to get to the closest city, even more, thats 300- up to 1000km )

Can i ask, does anyone know how SB was acutally abducted from the car park at Debenhams? (if that is what i understand to have happened)

SB car door/drivers side was faulty. it would not open.

 

[SteveH]

Interesting info about the PoW from Lolly True Crime* who is/are very convinced that JC didn't have anything to do with Suzy's disappearance. They had previously written this comment on 9 February 2021 in response to an article by "Anonymous 07/02/2021":

"I do not believe in the whole “Mr Kipper at 37 Shorrolds Road” and thus I do not believe that the character was ever a real person. Based on this I, therefore, do not buy that John Cannan had any connection to Suzy Lamplugh, her life, her disappearance or indeed any possible murder that may have been committed."

The Suzy Lamplugh Puzzle Part Two

What Happened to Suzy Lamplugh?

medium.com

* "Lolly’s True Crime World cold case review specialists, researchers, and Unsolved crime investigation is our passion"

In an update from October 19 2022 they wrote with more than a hint of disappointment:

"One of my best researchers recently visited the Prince of Wales public house where it is believed Suzy frequented and where she allegedly lost some items of value prior to her disappearance.

Allegations were made that something sinister may have happened at the pub and that Suzy’s remains may have been hidden or buried in the cellar of the property.

I am able to inform you that the current landlord of the pub Ben, has confirmed that the Metropolitan Police have searched the site and even used ground-penetrating radar equipment to examine the cellar and what lies beneath but nothing sinister was found.

It is sad that this poor woman can not be found and the case of what truly happened to Suzy Lamplugh be solved once and for all.

I do still stand resolute that she was not abducted or murdered by John Cannan and I firmly believe that so much time, money and effort has been wasted on looking at Cannan which could have been invested in finding out what really happened..

My researcher ate a meal at the pub and had a lengthy conversation with the landlord Ben...

It saddens me that I am not able to bring you a more positive update at this time but I am of course happy to speak to anyone about the matter and my investigations continue."

Suzy Lamplugh — Update

A little item of news has come to my attention which I feel needs to be shared with you all regarding the long-running Missing Estate…

medium.com

In a different article from 25 April 2021 (Suzy Lamplugh - Time for The Truth) they wrote:

"Going back slightly, the narrative in media reports suggests that Suzy left Sturgis estate agents office carrying the keys to 37 Shorrolds Road, Fulham, but this has now been clarified to be inaccurate. When the police went to the house to try to locate Suzy they first went to Sturgis office to collect the keys.

The owner of the house that was selling (the vendor) was a helicopter pilot and he confirms that he only gave ONE set of keys to Sturgis when the house was put on the market for sale, which incidentally was just a week before Suzy disappeared. There was no evidence of a second set being cut and the policy at Sturgis was to put all keys to a property on ONE tag so all keys would have been with Suzy if she had taken them.

So this derails the appointment at Shorrolds Road and thus the whole Mr Kipper narrative is meaningless. Clearly, Suzy had somewhere to be on that Monday lunchtime and so she created an appointment for a viewing and left her office.

Now the story really starts to look sketchy and we can see the whole route that the police’s investigation has followed for so long falls apart. You see for quite a number of years there has been a line followed by many that literally makes no sense at all."

Suzy Lamplugh — Time For The Truth

Welcome back to my study of the case of missing Suzy Lamplugh, who disappeared after leaving the estate agency where she worked in Fulham…

medium.com

I will be looking at the keys issue in a further comment later today on another Channel 5 doc that I have rewatched. Later Lolly True Crime wrote:

"Now, we are looking very carefully at this case and at Suzy’s life and have discovered many things that are not so obvious in the public domain but, when it comes to witnesses seeing people at 37 Shorrolds Road, I am able to say that the police seem to have completely ignored a couple who it seems Suzy was very ‘special friends’ with and the male looked very similar to a second artist impression created by a man who said that he recalled seeing a very smartly dressed male standing near a parked car in Shorrolds Road at around 1pm."

The question I would myself ask is: does the man in this "artist impression" that LTC links look like a cross between Clint Eastwood and Julio Iglesias?

Or am I thinking of the wrong couple?

"In my opinion, this picture does not match the police’s “only suspect”, John Cannan at all, but it does match with another person whom we have in our sights. I am unable to say more on this part of things at present but all will be revealed as our cold case review goes along....

We are not here to sell books and thus twist the narrative to make pieces of the puzzle fit, we are only interested in the truth and I have to say that my team and I are absolutely satisfied that John Cannan has no connection whatsoever with Suzy Lamplugh’s disappearance."

It's either DV himself or more likely a big fan of his work obviously! They say "the facts speak for themselves" but then go on to make so many assumptions, suppositions and false conclusions that one wouldn't know where to begin (at one point they state "I stand by my gut feeling"). And so I shall end here for now.

PS "Anonymous Writer" made an intriguing comment themselves:

On Suzy's missing/stolen items at the PoW they write:

"Interestingly Anita Brookner on the pre-release of the Stephen book, suggests that these belongings may have gone missing later on that weekend, possibly on Sunday night. Is this a mistake? Or is it, in fact, unclear exactly which day and time Suzy lost these personal possessions? Writing in 1988, on pre-release of the Stephen book Brookner states:

'One frail line of inquiry remains. The night before she disappeared Suzy left her chequebook in a pub telling the publican she would pick it up the following evening.’"

Again the writer insists that they are giving us "solid facts". I usually find that people who make this sort of claim are charlatans and fantasists. Evidence is ALWAYS disputable and facts are NEVER straightforward.

PPS Cold Case Investigations UK* wrote on February 2025:

"John David Guise Cannan was made a scapegoat in the Lamplugh case simply because the police investigating the case could not see what was hiding in plain sight before their eyes. We were warned to keep our noses out of this case, I wonder why!

The fact remains that John Cannan did not know Suzy Lamplugh and on the day of her disappearance he had lunch with his mother then loaded up a borrowed red Ford Sierra with his possessions and drove it to his mother’s home in the West Midlands UK."

So this writer is claiming that Cannan met up with his mother BEFORE driving to Sutton Coldfield.

As I have said before Cannan was only asked to account for his movements on the day Suzy disappeared after his arrest for Shirley Banks' murder so it is quite possible he couldn't remember which day he drove up to the Midlands, or he knew he could lie about it and his mother would go along with whatever he said either because SHE didn't remember or she wanted to support her son with an alibi. It truly is utter poppycock. The man lied about nearly everything.

*"We are Cold Case Investigations, cold case crime investigators & researchers...Hello friends, it’s me, Jarad Adams...I will be collaborating with Lolly True Crime world, a well-known writer here on Medium and an influencer on Twitter." LTC themselves stated in a different post: "I am a little confused as I thought that we had made it quite clear with the help of Jarad Adams, The Cold Case Detective that we are much more than a blog writing group and that we are professionals in our field." Why they were confused isn't apparent but maybe their ("myself and the gang") move to Dorset from London in 2022 might have cleared their minds.

I know a "researcher" into the Somerton Man mystery - a case I have spent more time on over the past few years than I care to think about - who claims he has a "team" and I also know he is talking to himself under different pseudonyms a lot of the time - I think his daughter might give him a bit of help now and then. Hint - SM was Carl Webb despite all the naysayers like our "researcher" friend who thinks the whole thing is a massive cover-up. Not that it makes any difference but I did visit the beach in Adelaide where the man was found during my second trip to Australia, in 1985 (albeit knowing nothing about "Somerton Man" at the time).

Failed Operation Phoebus

Missing Suzy Lamplugh (Part One)

medium.com

PPPS Lolly True Crime also wrote about Sandra Court on 7 August 2022 with info from an "informant":

"Today I received information from a source which I am not about to disclose telling me a few details which will now be pursued further, but currently seem to make sense...

Sandra Court was murdered by a friend who had been out with her on the night of the murder.

The friend’s boyfriend (now husband) assisted in covering up the killing and scattering her belongings in a false trail over the New Forest and towards Parkstone.

The vehicle allegedly used on the night of the murder was a land rover that was destroyed in a suspicious garage fire not long after

The letter that was talked of in reports was faked by Sandra’s friend and her family, particularly her mother who apparently knew all about the murder.

According to my informant, the police officer in charge of the investigation was badly compromised by the family as they were apparently very manipulative. Sandra’s friend, the suspect took the said officer to dinner and was never even considered in the investigation.

This new information has of course been passed on to Dorset Police for their attention."

Sandra Court Unsolved Murder

An Update from an informant

medium.com

 

[tes1984]

Can i ask, does anyone know how SB was acutally abducted from the car park at Debenhams? (if that is what i understand to have happened)

I wonder if she was abducted, or if she willingly gave him a lift back to Clifton.