UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

  • #341
JCs DNA would be on file,was there not one piece of DNA evidence left at the crime scenes or on the rape victims?
Either they did not collect such evidence in 1978, or they did and know perfectly well it wasn't JC. This is one of the things that for me undermines the official case. If the police are so sure it was JC, why are they pointing to crimes they know perfectly well he did not commit as evidence that he did commit this one? Who that is honest makes their case in such a way? What else are they lying about?
 
  • #342
JCs DNA would be on file,was there not one piece of DNA evidence left at the crime scenes or on the rape victims?

I don’t think police were particularly hot at dealing with sexual assaults back in the day. You’d think they might have something knocking about in an evidence room though. They’re probably under no pressure to look at this stuff again, sadly - it’s not like a murder, where a victim’s family can advocate for them years down the line, I imagine any survivors who are still alive are understandably keen to keep their distance from it all.

Edit: sorry, didn’t see WL’s reply before mine. Agree completely with what they’ve written above, it feels as if police are constantly gaslighting the public re this case. I think this is the main source of my irritation with it.
 
  • #343
Some offenders are very versatile, but I'm not really seeing how the HFS rapes are particularly similar to JC's known crimes.

The documentary suggests that the rapes stopped when JC started a new relationship. That's possible, but a simpler explanation might be that the rapist stopped once the attacks were linked and his sketch and description appeared in the papers.

I think this is another good example of what we were discussing in the Ann Heron thread re sources and references the other day. The Cannan and Lamplugh Wikipedia pages are properly referenced but the source material isn’t of particularly high quality imo and lots of context is left out.

Eg on the house for sale rapes, we’re told on Cannan’s page that police “now suspect that Cannan was responsible for these offences” - what ‘police’? The Met? As an institution, or just some of their detectives? West Midlands Police ruled him out - did they change their minds? Why? None of this is addressed, but for a casual reader it no doubt seems compelling.
 
  • #344
Interesting, he covered a pretty wide area then, these are more Warwickshire and Staffordshire way, than Birmingham. I guess the motorbike came in handy. Michael Sams was a bike guy wasn’t he?

Michael Sams was only around 5ft 5 tall, and had a false leg. However he was seemingly still agile in the 90s, and I don't think his kidnap victim noticed his disability. In terms of the geography, Sams' mother lived near Birmingham and he also owned a property to the north of Coventry.
 
  • #345
West Midlands Police ruled him out - did they change their minds? Why? None of this is addressed, but for a casual reader it no doubt seems compelling.
Call me cynical but the bit in bold is why I think it is done.
 
  • #346
The issue with the Brunt podcast is that as is now typical it goes straight from SJL to JC without passing Go. There is never any attempt to go back to 1986 and relook at the case from scratch. The police themselves, when they reluctantly reinvestigated in 1999-2000, didn't do so either. They took the previously list of people considered, added Cannan, re-eliminated the first lot again and were left with Cannan; QED.

The only person to do this properly since 1986 has been DV. I don't count whack jobs like CMcGH, who deployed his microwave repair skills and love of ferrets to deduce that Mr Kipper was Fred West's brother John because John West = tinned fish and kippers are fish. So DV deserves some credit for going back and questioning everything. Where many of us depart from DV is that in effect, once he had arrived at his own view, he went on to commit in its support many of the same offences against logic that he exposes in the SJL investigation.

They and he were all trained by the Met, so maybe we should not be too surprised by this. But in no particular order he fails to acknowledge the BW sighting, the wealthy yet imminently bankrupt couple, the remarkable personal life of SJL, the unknown person putting pressure on her over a property deal, and - most obviously - the impossibility of his own suggested solution. He does not show the PoW was all but empty, he does not show why anyone would kill her there, he does not show why anyone would cover up an accident, he does not ask himself whether the blowfly infestation he thinks significant might actually be common around pubs and their huge bins, and he doesn't explain how the pub managed to lower the floor in the 1990s without anyone noticing a body underneath.

Probably there is no solution, but this case is no different to any other true crime case in that regard, so I don't see there's anything especially discreditable in being interested in it, or even writing books about it.

What the SJL case does have as an unusual feature is an astonishingly p155p00r original investigation. This lays it wide open to alternative lines of thought; hence these threads. The publicly-made police case against Cannan is based largely on complete and prejuducial tosh compiled 14 years after the fact, and smacks of a fit-up as a result. There is a much better case against Cannan, based on an informant's information in 1999. But you never hear this made because it's clear from it that Cannan could have been arrested within a few weeks had the police been up to their job.

So although the case has probably been solved, the enduring fascination here is that it doesn't feel like it has. That's because we're not hearing the real case, because it's so embarrassing.

I agree that DV did a great job in exposing the flaws in LE's narrative.
Having invested so much time and personal expense in his own investigation I feel it is understandable that he may have overhyped his suggested theory in order to help recoup some of his own personal outlay. It may be that DV does not have the faith he implies he has in his own theory but may have just wished to expose the flaws in LE's investigations without ending up significantly out of pocket as a consequence of his efforts.
MOO/JMO
 
  • #347
The HFS rapes have definitely been ignored. A bit like the Green Chain rapes, with Robert Napper in the JC role of prime and only suspect.

The Batman rapist had 16 victims, yet as you say is relatively unknown.
The House For Sale rapist is linked in the documentary with over 20 victims.
IIRC with the Green Chain rapist they were talking about way, way more than 20 victims.
Some crimes seem to get a lot more publicity than others.

Nearer to home in relation to the Lamplugh case are the unsolved murders of six - or possibly eight - women in the so called "Hammersmith nude murders" or the "Jack the Stripper" killings.

At least six prostitutes were murdered in the west London area in 1964 and 1965. On Websleuths there are a mere three pages of discussion of the mystery on the dedicated thread and only one comment since 2015 (in 2019)..


The police thought they had their man but he killed himself before they could arrest him. He may have had an alibi for one of the murders. More recently some sleuths think that it was the work of a Welshman, Harold Jones, who lived in the area at the time. He had previously been in jail for killing two girls in Abertillery when he was 15.

David Wilson seems convinced of his guilt but yet again he makes a laughable statement (in a 2018 doc) that the sketch of a person of interest - a kerb crawler - identified by a witness bears an "uncanny" resemblance to Jones. He does slightly resemble him as a 15 year old but Jones would have been in his late 50s - he was born in 1906 - at the time of the West London killings. Doh!

1764618531179.webp

See:

Criminologists eh?

Similarly I don't think the sketches of "Mr Kipper" resemble John Cannan but the same claim about an "uncanny" resemblance has been made on more than one occasion. It's BS of course!
 
  • #348
The Mr Kipper sketch seems poorly executed to me. In a human face the eyes are always in the middle from top to bottom. The hair and forehead look gerrymandered to achieve that result, which looks like a cartoon.
 
  • #349
I agree that DV did a great job in exposing the flaws in LE's narrative.
Having invested so much time and personal expense in his own investigation I feel it is understandable that he may have overhyped his suggested theory in order to help recoup some of his own personal outlay. It may be that DV does not have the faith he implies he has in his own theory but may have just wished to expose the flaws in LE's investigations without ending up significantly out of pocket as a consequence of his efforts.
MOO/JMO

I know he worked with a researcher (‘Caroline’) but I can’t help thinking if he’d also teamed up with a writer his efforts would’ve provided the basis of a really good long form bit of journalism. There’s definitely a good investigative feature piece to be written about this case, imo. But as you say that probably wouldn’t have recouped some of his costs.
 
  • #350
Other statements by MB in this podcast I find interesting is what he had to say about the public response (as there was not alot of other news at the time he said the papers focused on SJL, and the public response was massive - he said 1000's of people came forward. 26000 cards were recorded.

Pretty incredulous that in this amount of information there was nothing. (makes me think of the LISK - Gilgo Beach case where before it was digitised years later - RH was there all along in the cards being reported by twoof the gilgo fours housemates ). Where are these cards/system now - has it been revisited to crosscheck patterns I wonder?

MB also says that Mr Kipper was ' a white male, middle aged"'. Middle aged is not your early thirties IMO - its 40-50 years old.
Yes where exactly are those 26,000 cards now?
 
  • #351

 
  • #352
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  • #353
Eg on the house for sale rapes, we’re told on Cannan’s page that police “now suspect that Cannan was responsible for these offences” - what ‘police’? The Met? As an institution, or just some of their detectives?

I think the Wikipedia page on the SL murder is very misleading for reasons like the above. What is the source for this? But then, because it is on Wikipedia, these "factoids" get repeated and repeated and become part of the legend or myth about what happened. A lot of the sourcing on the Wiki page is the Channel 5 documentary, which yes, it is a documentary that was aired on a TV channel but a lot of what it contains is not sourced itself e.g. where is the sourcing for the claim they make that JC was a regular in the PoW? Why would he be a regular there? So you have that flimsy, hearsay and rumour filled documentary used as a major source for a Wiki page that is quoted elsewhere like fact and is often the first port of call for anyone wanting to read about the case for the first time.
 

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