UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Konstantin]

Indeed. Ryan obviously went in to that meeting with DV prepped to rebut DV’s theory, yet on the key(s) appeared stumped. He and his team must have looked through statements by officers, Sturgis staff, basically anyone who attended 37SR, for evidence of how entry to the house was obtained? Yet if it exists it apparently wasn’t shown to DV.

I’ve posted before about oddities in AS’s book regarding entry to 37SR vs Suzy’s flat (post 1,391):



Suzy’s flat wasn’t a crime scene, 37SR possibly was, yet little attention is given to the latter. Strikes me as odd but could be just an innocent oversight on AS’s part.

Determining if Suzy had the keys in her possession when she left the office would go a long way to telling us what her intentions and movements were that day.

Sturgis staff gave statements saying she had taken the keys and they were on a distinctive yellow fob.

If those same keys were still in the office and if staff knew there was only one set, that would have come up very early on in the investigation.

 

[EddietheEagle]

The implication of being ordered to "enter" and search the property is that you don't have the keys. When one has the keys, entering is automatic, assumed. You can infer from that alone the keys were never to hand.

 

[Klclevi]

The old saying goes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

There is no evidence, that is clear. They may have claimed they did but IMO it was pretty skint on the details.

IF you REALLY strip it back to the bare bones - if you could start this again in 2026. The Sunday night conversation with her parents speaks absolute volumes.

What would be the timeline from that conversation? What are the probablities that this was someone that she did not know. I would say less than 10%.

There is No evidence she knew JC. He did not abduct women in broad daylight. Also has WL has said, why would you go from murder to rape, then murder. I guess this is possible but why.

JC coming into the picture, well. I have said before I am on the fence on that one. BUT. We know this man had access to a car and a flat in Hammersmith/Fulham area not far from Sturgis at all. This is a crazy detail that cannot be overlooked and one we put to Mike Barley ( Thankyou @WestLondoner you are just a legend). His response was just flat out BS . How they did not know his mate from WWS had a council flat in this area? OMG Beat me with a wet lettuce over the head.
What I am less convinced by is that JC was was messy. left sh*t in his car, in his flat. (in Bristol) He would have had to have had the props (ie weapons) to restrain and threaten her, (granted this could been fakes etc from Superhire) and the means to put her away in a quick timeframe - not driving her up to NB in a state of body decomp. That makes no sense.
And then where did her clothes, keys and anything else she had. If what he said was true to a prison inmate about her being in a house with company well there are not alot of options are there. Otherwise, hes pulling the donkeys tale of BS.

If JC did it he has not encased her in concrete or any other BS theories. Come on. That takes planning and the tools to do it. If the Met really thought that was a viable option then omg . Same with NB theory. Really? He took her up the M5 (sorry i dont know the freeways in the UK but thats what MB said), took a spade and dug a massive bl*dy hole? No way.



If her parents had the light bulb on in late July 86 they would have gone, ok , Suzys just mentioned a joint deal with ''a client'.
Thats a red flag from the outset but they missed it IMO. SO, there are some articles that say they are investigating the 200 active clients, but there is nothing since. So did they do this, can find nothing, then this 14 year witness comes along that might be Park man or might not. They also say there is a tight group of suspects. Well who are these people? How did this narrative change in two years to JC as the conclusive suspect -

Another person was named in 2001. David Tucker from Bristol I think it was. will reference article in a sec

 

[EddietheEagle]

A compilation of easily-accessible, press articles is very helpful. It drove me nuts trying to find old press material.

 

[rvlvr]

IIRC Fuller kept a detailed diary of what he did. Obviously he could have faked diary entries on certain days.

A lot of offenders have links to Fulham. The Railway Killer David Mulcahy used to go roller blading in Bishop's Park. His parents lived nearby in Barnes. Mulcahy was a bike courier in the 80s, but I'm not sure where he worked or if he doing that job in summer 1986.

Interesting case I came across yesterday:

Peter Robert Hughes, 58, abducted wealthy businesswoman, Marilyn Rowell, her two children aged eight and 11, and a friend, days after he was released from prison where he served time for kidnapping an estate agent at gunpoint.

Judge Simon Hawkesworth jailed Hughes - who he called "a considerable danger to the public" - for life for robbery and possession of a firearm and for six years for kidnapping, to run concurrently.

Article continues:

Hughes, who has lived in Surrey and London, was released on licence on April 3 this year [2000] after serving six years of a ten-year sentence imposed at the Old Bailey for posing as a house buyer and kidnapping an estate agent at gunpoint before handcuffing and robbing a flat owner.

Tom Mitchell, prosecuting, said that on April 26 Hughes posed as a potential buyer under an assumed name and went to view Mrs Rowell's £250,000 home in Horsforth.

He returned the same evening, telling Mrs Rowell his wife was coming to see the property. But after more than an hour his fictional wife had not turned up and Mrs Rowell volunteered to drive Hughes to his hotel accompanied by her two children and her friend Dawn Birks.

But when they were in the car Hughes locked the doors and took out an imitation handgun, holding it to Mrs Rowell's waist. He told her: "All my plans have gone wrong."

Hughes finally dropped the four off at a railway station. As he did so he told Mrs Rowell that "she was an attractive woman and who knew what would have happened if the others hadn't been there".

Life for man who kidnapped family

A 'Walter Mitty' character has been jailed for life for kidnapping a family at gunpoint after posing as a potential house buyer.

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk

Another article on Hughes quoted DL downplaying any link to Suzy’s case on the basis he was too old. And he probably was. I’ve no idea what the guy looked like either. But it’s yet another example of a man posing as a house buyer in order to hurt a woman. Seemed to happen on a frighteningly regular basis back in the 70s, 80s and 90s. And plenty of these cases remain unsolved (and obviously can’t all have been Cannan). Ample reason for us and police to still consider other potential offenders in Suzy’s case imo.

 

[rvlvr]

Sturgis staff gave statements saying she had taken the keys and they were on a distinctive yellow fob.

If those same keys were still in the office and if staff knew there was only one set, that would have come up very early on in the investigation.

Indeed. So why was Ryan stumped?

The implication of being ordered to "enter" and search the property is that you don't have the keys. When one has the keys, entering is automatic, assumed. You can infer from that alone the keys were never to hand.

You may well be correct, but inferences are a lot like assumptions in my book.

In recent years Met police officers past and present have had ample opportunity to evidence their theories regarding this case (which, they believe, they’ve solved) and yet any time they open their mouths there are more questions than answers. It’s peculiar, isn’t it?

 

[Ellymoo]

Was Suzy's car ever checked for Cannan's DNA?

 

[Klclevi]

Hello Elly
Thankyou for your post. DNA in 86 was only in its very early stages. . A thumbprint has been taken from the car, but it did not have enough at the time to be able to provide a link it was so small. There are chances it might be able to provide evidence as technology advances (thats how small the sample must have been). Other tapings, etc have been reported to provide no evidence (as reported at the time) but again, this was 40 years ago, so the technology available was worlds away to what it is today or even 10 years on from her disappearance.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Was Suzy's car ever checked for Cannan's D

Hello Elly
Thankyou for your post. DNA in 86 was only in its very early stages. . A thumbprint has been taken from the car, but it did not have enough at the time to be able to provide a link it was so small. There are chances it might be able to provide evidence as technology advances (thats how small the sample must have been). Other tapings, etc have been reported to provide no evidence (as reported at the time)

If they still have the hair & chain of custody etc for hair found in the red sierra jointly owned by Taggart & JC, they can conclusively rule in or out re: it belonging to SC & SL (in theory). They now don’t need the root of the hair to accurately test.

There is misinformation out there on sierra hair being at all connected to SL. New tech could in theory check again & be conclusive.

Similarly, the confession letter for SC - test flap & stamp for JC DNA. CBD makes a good case for JC being SC’s killer. Her belongings thrown carelessly out of a car window etc. The pay & display ticket found putting JC in right place at right time. It took only very light pressure to kill SC apparently.

Both are potential action points that could help move the dial a little.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Has VV been looked at & ruled out - now deceased. He had established links to Antwerp & Belgium plus.

Knightsbridge Security Deposit robbery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The likeness to HR’s photofit speaks for itself.

 

[tes1984]

Interesting case I came across yesterday:

Another article on Hughes quoted DL downplaying any link to Suzy’s case on the basis he was too old. And he probably was. I’ve no idea what the guy looked like either. But it’s yet another example of a man posing as a house buyer in order to hurt a woman. Seemed to happen on a frighteningly regular basis back in the 70s, 80s and 90s. And plenty of these cases remain unsolved (and obviously can’t all have been Cannan). Ample reason for us and police to still consider other potential offenders in Suzy’s case imo.

His age is given as 58 in 2000, so he was around 44 when Suzy vanishes.

His 2000 kidnapping took place on the one year anniversary of the Jill Dando murder. PH seems to have been in prison in 1999 though for a previous abduction (unless he was allowed day release or home leave during the last year of his sentence).

He also looks an interesting POI for the Houses for Sale rapes in the late 70s.

In 2000, he looked a youthful 58 IMO and still had a full head of dark hair in a ponytail. I think he would have looked like the Kipper sketch (in general terms) in 1986.

He used the alias Bob Cahill, which could have been in homage to Michael Sams, who used the alias Bob Southwell, when he kidnapped estate agent Stephanie Slater in 1992.

 

[EddietheEagle]

You may well be correct, but inferences are a lot like assumptions in my book.

Implications of and inferences from, facts and evidence is the principle method by which difficult cases are solved. As the expert on here was at pains to point out in earlier threads, cases are rarely clear cut and it's often the totality of inferential evidence that convinces a jury. The totality of the evidence around the keys indicates strongly that they went missing with SL.

Having said that, it is also highly unlikely that between estate agent and client, there was ever only one set of keys knocking around. The client would almost certainly have had at least a set. Whether they were to hand or not, I couldn't say. On balance, it does seem not in the first instance, hence officers given the order to "enter".

 

[tes1984]

Another person was named in 2001. DT from Bristol I think it was.

Not sure if he should be named on public boards, as he's not a convicted murderer, kidnapper etc. I suppose his name was put out in association with the case though.

FWIR he was a big time property developer in the mid 80s, with ambitious plans for developments in London.

 

[Konstantin]

So why was Ryan stumped

Is that what DV wrote?
If so it's his own interpretation of events?
I think DV did some good and interesting work on the case but for me he fits all his facts together in a narrative that produces the conclusion he wants. I felt he leads the reader - I got the impression, And this is my personal view, that he felt contempt for the police officers he interviews. DV knows best.
But again, this is my view and I'm happy to change it if I can be persuaded!

 

[rvlvr]

Is that what DV wrote?
If so it's his own interpretation of events?
I think DV did some good and interesting work on the case but for me he fits all his facts together in a narrative that produces the conclusion he wants. I felt he leads the reader - I got the impression, And this is my personal view, that he felt contempt for the police officers he interviews. DV knows best.
But again, this is my view and I'm happy to change it if I can be persuaded!

Oh I agree, as I said before, treat with caution, etc, but you’d have expected Ryan to hit back with a plethora of statements that detail how police entered 37SR. (We know how they entered Suzy’s flat because AS tells us so in his book. But AS really doesn’t tell us anything much about what happened at 37SR, which to me is odd.)

Ryan (apparently) tells DV ‘we assumed (my emphasis) she did have the keys’ and when pressed on the use - as DV would allege - of a key/keys by police to access 37SR he says ‘we don’t know where the keys came from’. What keys? Suzy is meant to have the keys? If the door was put in because no one had the keys because Suzy had the keys then this should’ve been quite easy for Ryan to confirm given he had full access to the files? Likewise, if an officer obtained keys from a neighbour or relative, say? To me Ryan’s apparent confusion about the situation suggests either he hadn’t done his homework or he had and there’s just no record of exactly what occurred. Which is fine but obviously not exactly helpful!

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Oh I agree, as I said before, treat with caution, etc, but you’d have expected Ryan to hit back with a plethora of statements that detail how police entered 37SR. (We know how they entered Suzy’s flat because AS tells us so in his book. But AS really doesn’t tell us anything much about what happened at 37SR, which to me is odd.)

Ryan (apparently) tells DV ‘we assumed (my emphasis) she did have the keys’ and when pressed on the use - as DV would allege - of a key/keys by police to access 37SR he says ‘we don’t know where the keys came from’. What keys? Suzy is meant to have the keys? If the door was put in because no one had the keys because Suzy had the keys then this should’ve been quite easy for Ryan to confirm given he had full access to the files? Likewise, if an officer obtained keys from a neighbour or relative, say? To me Ryan’s apparent confusion about the situation suggests either he hadn’t done his homework or he had and there’s just no record of exactly what occurred. Which is fine but obviously not exactly helpful!

Playing devil’s advocate, if it’s assumed SL didn’t go to 37 OR it was a rendezvous & she merely stopped briefly & picked someone up outside, how might that change everything as you say?

Presumably the early focus would have all been on Stevenage Rd (?) The Carters may not have witnessed a row as this was more on Finlay than Stevenage NB: ‘Galway’ witness (?) BW always stood by her statement.

 

[rvlvr]

The thing is, as I think @Lady Stoddart-West has mentioned, there’s clearly some overlap between DV’s theory and some theories proposed by police - DV says the house viewing appointment can’t have been legitimate because she didn’t take the keys. Police seem to think the keys issue isn’t pertinent but do seem to have flirted with the idea the appointment wasn’t legitimate.

 

[WestLondoner]

Whether she took the keys or not, the fundamental point, arguments from personal incredulity aside, is surely that she did not go into 37SR. Not taking the keys reinforces this point, as if it needed it. The only witness who said she was inside later admitted he might have heard the door of a different house being shut.

Once you accept the likelihood that any visit to 37SR must have been fleeting or imagined, the focus shifts elsewhere. E.g. to the BW sighting dismissed by the plod, to flats in Sun Road...

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Whether she took the keys or not, the fundamental point, arguments from personal incredulity aside, is surely that she did not go into 37SR. Not taking the keys reinforces this point, as if it needed it. The only witness who said she was inside later admitted he might have heard the door of a different house being shut.

Once you accept the likelihood that any visit to 37SR must have been fleeting or imagined, the focus shifts elsewhere. E.g. to the BW sighting dismissed by the plod, to flats

Re: other door slamming that was HR. For me HR just isn’t reliable enough as a witness. Not only did he deliberately exaggerate re: van bundling, but in Belgium he said that DR aka Kiper looked more like the man he’d seen & could well be him. Will find the article. Here is Kiper around when HR saw him:

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

The timeline is clearly very important. The police were tying themselves in knots in early days to piece 37 Shorrolds visit & WJ account together. Barley, I believe, thinks or thought SL went to Stevenage Rd first & then on to Shorrolds.

NB: article here. Some witness accounts not considered at time as didn’t fit with timeline. I had heard,I thought, JD say elsewhere in a doc the jogger sighting hadn’t reached original team as pop up station hadn’t passed data on…

But here…”At the time of the inquiry, police discounted the BMW sighting as irrelevant as it did not fit with their timeline of events”

It begs question what else was possibly dismissed as didn’t fit with the ‘correct’ timeline?