UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[kes1972]

The implication of being ordered to "enter" and search the property is that you don't have the keys. When one has the keys, entering is automatic, assumed. You can infer from that alone the keys were never to hand.

Maybe that is why someone went back to her car on stevenage road, because they had to recover the keys

 

[kes1972]

True on broken nose, the best likeness IMO I’ve seen is for VV that was socialising in Chelsea & Fulham at right time & in £ parts of London & his autobio outlines a 1986 date with a ‘Sloane’ he took out between the Kings & Fulham Rd: “I told the girl I was a dumb motor sports reporter who was studying English & living off my parents money”.

As you’ll note VV’s eyebrows also meet in the middle. They never found the ‘client’ doing this deal - VV was known to have at least 7 false identities. Could one of them be sitting in SL’s contact book?

Who is vv please

 

[WestLondoner]

There are some who think she was wittingly or unwittingly caught up in fraud. So definitely yes to dodgy business deals! We know for certain one in play.

She didn’t objectively have the money for this active/live deal & that could that have led to escalation. Did ‘Kipper’ assume she came from & had more money than she did? She didn’t get that commission, couldn’t sell flat & was urgently trying. DL thrilled when eventually sold as she’d wanted it badly. She told someone at 21st she was due to get a few thousand soon & both they & her parents said she was excited.

The fact that almost all on case believed this joint ‘deal’ maker either had skin in game (never came forward) or was ‘Mr Kipper’ himself speaks volumes. It’s interesting her father didn’t take her seriously on this ‘deal’ when she spoke at length about it on the Sunday night.

“Her family thought she would live in the house but with strings attached”. Surely PL, in a law firm etc ,would have advised for serious caution here? She said “don’t ask me about it, I’ll tell you about it when it’s completed” elsewhere. DL seems to think someone using it as ‘the mailing address for own ends’ ok. Then talks of ‘safe houses’.Intere

Did any implied caution from Dad seed doubt & she bailed on deal. He called & said ‘meet me now up the road’ & try & talk her round? Was he relying on her compliance & her money.

Agree on all angles but this was a very important starting point IMO. Also favour the simplest solutions. The blonde could have been anyone & this was never considered.

The police were ‘furious’ the family ‘presumed’ they knew about the deal. Why was this I wonder?

Interesting additional details about the BMW: dark blue, at least 10 years old, 2.5 or 2.8. And LHD. How many cars like that were there??!

 

[WestLondoner]

Interesting. What would be in this sort of joint purchase for SL, assuming she wouldn't want to be involved in an overt fraud? She didn't seem to be dishonest. Could she have been that naive?

"Strings attached" - wonder what sort? The mind boggles.

 

[kes1972]

There's also another potential angle here.

What if the woman seen outside the property wasn't Suzy, but Suzy's abduction was planned by more than one person?

Could the couple seen outside the property have been a deliberate decoy to detract from the real abduction that occurred elsewhere?

I mean, ridiculous conspiracies aside, could Suzy have been the victim of a professional hit, whereby her disappearance was orchestrated by those who wanted to get her out of the way?

Did Suzy get herself embroiled in a world of high end-criminality that involved dodgy business deals and investments?

IMO, every angle is worth pursuing.

I really believe that hr saw mg and office worker at the address

 

[kes1972]

You've been criticising all and sundry for a while now, but what's your theory about what actually happened to Suzy?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Unfortunately Sharon's murder is unsolved.

The mailing address frauds involved gangs finding someone naive/vulnerable/desperate enough to allow their address to be used.

The gang would then put out adverts for goods or services that didn't exist. Payments would be sent to the address, and intercepted by the gang, who would then scarper, leaving the resident they had recruited to deal with the fallout and police etc.

Some of those scammed would be tricked into thinking they were involved with a legitimate business venture, and wouldn't find out otherwise until it was too late.

It was a fairly low level scam though, so such gangs certainly wouldn't be buying up properties when they could just find a mug punter who would be happy to get involved for a few hundred pounds.

I doubt if Suzy was naive enough to fall for such a low level scam, or desperate enough for what probably wouldn't be a huge amount of money anyway.

Tend to agree. Who was in frame for Sharon? - will have a delve..

Looking at SH - we do know as well as one banal timeline type detail - changed at police’s request - AS kept back other sensitive discoveries from SL’s family. Carter Ruck forced his hand here & he wasn’t pleased to tell all. DL remarked “she didn’t live as I would have done”. If someone she knew from a shadier realm of her of her life or re: moonlighting masseuse type work at Kensington Hilton or Intercontinental she may have trusted someone she thought was rich & benign enough to help her up property ladder. She was very ambitious. I am reminded of the man she thought she could handle…

 

[kes1972]

.

 

[WestLondoner]

What do you mean by mark gurdon comes close to? Thanks

In 1986 when he rang DL to ask if she'd seen SJL he never mentioned that she'd been to a viewing. He seemed to assume he had not. Next day when the police realised nobody had searched 37SR they were able to enter the house with a set of keys. By implication MG never checked to see if Sturgis had had them all along.

It's not that material. Other evidence shows she never went inside.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Who is vv please

Interesting additional details about the BMW: dark blue, at least 10 years old, 2.5 or 2.8. And LHD. How many cars like that were there??!

The police were three quarters of way through checking them & gave up. Reminded me re; Yorkshire Ripper & tyres…

On the BMW also NB:

 

[kes1972]

There's also another potential angle here.

What if the woman seen outside the property wasn't Suzy, but Suzy's abduction was planned by more than one person?

Could the couple seen outside the property have been a deliberate decoy to detract from the real abduction that occurred elsewhere?

I mean, ridiculous conspiracies aside, could Suzy have been the victim of a professional hit, whereby her disappearance was orchestrated by those who wanted to get her out of the way?

Did Suzy get herself embroiled in a world of high end-criminality that involved dodgy business deals and investments?

IMO, every angle is worth pursuing.

My thoughts on an order of options
1. Work related
2. Pow
3. John cannan
4 steve wright
5. Railway killers
6. Bg - looks quite like jc at that age
7. Robert napper ( at a stretch ) napper- kipper

 

[Konstantin]

The police were three quarters of way through checking them & gave up. Reminded me re; Yorkshire Ripper & tyres…

On the BMW also NB:

So superhire had a fleet of BMWs?
Yikes. That's a massive oversight if so. The recently released local rapist had access to a BMW?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

My thoughts on an order of options
1. Work related
2. Pow
3. John cannan
4 steve wright
5. Railway killers
6. Bg - looks quite like jc at that age
7. Robert napper ( at a stretch ) napper- kipper

Valerio Viccei - dated someone matching SL’s description in June 86 in Fulham/Chelsea.

 

[lee sumner]

Yes, I really think the Sun to Fri change is the odd but inconsequential detail the police asked AS to alter. It puzzled him but he felt it had no bearing on rest of information. Unfortunately quite a bit of that centred on the unreliable testimony of HR. HR went to Belgium & said Kiper looked like the man he saw which looked nothing like his photofit. He also said he saw SL bundled into a van.

If this WAS the change AL could legitimately talk about lost item events taking place on Friday.

Barley has now told us in podcast SL DID effectively see someone post her parents on Sun night & tried to cover her tracks with AL. Did they ever get to bottom of who this was? The expat, especially if her plus one at 21st & his upper class/upper middle social circle, will have definitely overlapped with Birthday lady & they likely knew each other socially anyway, is the obvious choice. I think he was due to legitimately leave the country post a party on the Tues. The police used interpol to question so presumably did so only a bit later on.

Perhaps the person SL DID see on Sun eve was a ‘commercial’ contact though, not so much a love interest. We do know via her uncle this deal to buy the house she couldn’t otherwise afford was troubling her & her business associate was pressurising her. Her unusually good mood on Mon am, pre NH taking commission, she’d assumed was hers, might be because she’d finally adjusted the terms of deal OR pulled out. The police did feel in 86 this house deal was key, vital & they didn’t know about it early on. The last conversation she apparently had with her parents was on this very deal - will post press article.

That last call she took OR made, may have been to tell ‘Kipper’ she couldn’t pay any money owed immediately - no expected commission after all & arranged to meet him briefly & collect items too from pub. Why the urgency to sell her flat? Three failed attempts. Presumably her family knew? She had nowhere to go, did she need the cash fairly urgently?

Conjecture is one thing but we DO know the police asked AS to change what he saw as a meaningless detail poss on timeline. Like the butterfly effect if so, proved to be anything but. Can they check what this was? Will it be noted anywhere?

JD has now computerised all those cards on case. Fantastic. Can someone with good, detailed knowledge of case sit & cross reference with contact book etc? In AS time they had looked at only a fraction of contacts he said. NOT ALL. The police didn’t know about the house deal in golden hour & at time & HR was at least in part spinning yarns by his own admission & the police were under resourced. No one can blame them if they missed a vital lead. Barley said they’d looked at boyfriends where they could - did they go back here though & finish what they’d started with a fine tooth comb? Is SW from QE2 in her contact book?

JD said the BMW jogger witness came forward AT time & reinvestigating all this told police that. He went to a pop up police station in Stevenage Rd. It was missed at time.

‘Sarah’ calling pub & leaving number & message for SL - the message was also ‘lost’ & as JD sees it due to errors & overwhelm this was also possibly legitmately ‘lost’. Is there a clue in contact book? - not necessarily under ‘Sarah’ a wife or girlfriend of the pressurising deal maker perhaps?

The police also presumably know if the contact book was salacious or otherwise. This is important too. It all helps build a better ‘Kipper’ picture. Was there a thread that bound & connected most of the contacts together.

I thought something off re: 6pm - for reasons stated on thread - for many years prior to DV. Also, that there was an urgency & tension around lost belongings - source AS & Brookner etc - it’s very plausible & understandable, IMO, she’d want & need them back earlier rather than later.

I agree with you that the answer to this mystery isn’t complex. It’s either JC or it’s someone almost hiding in plain sight potentially. DL herself said as the person buying the property with SL, involved in this ‘scheme’ never came forward, wasn’t identified & must likely be linked to her disappearance. Their contact details or a reference to did she them must have been somewhere.

SL was in a hurry to sell her flat. it made more sense business wise to keep hold of it and charge rent like she was doing with NB. the flat had been on the market for 6months when SL disappeared, so she obviously wanted to sell. did she want money from sale to go into business with someone.

 

[kes1972]

Valerio Viccei - dated someone matching SL’s description in June 86 in Fulham/Chelsea.

Thankyou

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

So superhire had a fleet of BMWs?
Yikes. That's a massive oversight if so. The recently released local rapist had access to a BMW?

Article suggests JC employed by the hire company (!)

In same article a comment wondering how JC could have such a beyond means ££ lifestyle. I do think he could have set up a rented flat paying cash around Fulham etc esp if he had access to his father’s inheritance which he very possibly did by July 86.

Another comment I recalled JC made which pointed potentially to his guilt around SL. Hs said he didn’t know & had never been to Fulham. Really vehement about it. Too vehement perhaps.

 

[lee sumner]

On around page ten of this thread someone posted about the calls and essentially said what AS wrote about them was incorrect. Though I don’t think they ever provided a source for this and they haven’t posted since.



Yes, this is a good point. In his interviews with DV, MG comes across as a perfectly affable chap who was likely a very hands off kind of boss. I expect as long as calls were being answered by someone, anyone, in the office, and sales were being made (not a difficult ask given the era and location) then he was probably quite relaxed about how staff went about their days. He says to DV, doesn’t he, how he assumed at first that Suzy was off doing some shopping or whatever. Perhaps had the big boss not been in town then there wouldn’t even have been a diary entry.

SL was not allowed to attend her mother DL 50th birthday celebration because it was during the working day, and sturgis were not going to allow her time off to attend any birthday party. its there in AS book, so i dont think MG would allow SL to go shopping during working hours.

 

[lee sumner]

Thankyou

valerio was a pro-robber. i watched a doc about him the other night.

 

[lee sumner]

Who is vv please

valencio was a gangster not a nonce.

 

[lee sumner]

In 1986 when he rang DL to ask if she'd seen SJL he never mentioned that she'd been to a viewing. He seemed to assume he had not. Next day when the police realised nobody had searched 37SR they were able to enter the house with a set of keys. By implication MG never checked to see if Sturgis had had them all along.

It's not that material. Other evidence shows she never went inside.

why would he need to mention the viewing. he looked in her diary, and he seen her get the keys and paperwork to 37SR.