UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Klclevi]

On JC he was looking into running a management consultancy with AR & looking at possible offices in nice parts of Bristol. I agree it sounds absurd but he had form for ‘schemes’ too. It seems women trusted him, at least initially.

It’s interesting he was apparently trying to buy with ‘uptown’ ‘Su Su’ who wasn’t SL but lived near Peabody Estate. So there’s some evidence he was looking to buy in approximate area..

SL was in a great hurry to sell her flat and was very ambitious to go up in the world socially & professionally. She wanted to buy a property she couldn’t really afford on the evidence we do have. I think she assumed that some others were doing rather better than they were. Her mother, according to AS, had told her dyslexia meant you had to ‘be’ somebody & it was the 80s. She was doing very well & only 25.

Sorry LSW. Where is Peabody Estate please. (Aussie here)

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Hi Yes my apologies, I was thinking on that timeline after I posted that and thought bugger, thats not right KC.

I had in my mind he had contacted her from Horfield re his daughter and it must have started earlier but you are absolutely right.

I do have this book, admittedly I have not read it again for about a year now, so I will now get back into it - am reading AS again alongside DV atm.

Does this sound right - he first encounters AR around Feb 82? Pg56.

Apologies for that I feel like a right idiot. My head spins round and round on this case

Not an idiot at all & who knows, also none of us have all facts. AR was embarrassed & ashamed on her association re: JC. There’s certainly a lot of detail in Prime Suspect. I think I’ve a different edition, not that section for me. Will look back at AR but I think you’re right.

DV….definitely interested in your take here! He certainly must have had a lot more on man he calls CV…A ‘dossier’ & he expected an imminent arrest!

 

[Rookie D]

The following article from the Wolverhampton and Star printed in November 1987, may go some way to explaining why the police seem to lose momentum over the potential linking of Cannan to SL.

But seemingly, for all the wrong reasons.

By proving that Cannan murdered SB, they appear to have then automatically assumed that Cannan was the notorious rapist from the Midlands, and then tried to link this HFS rapist with SL.

And this is where they possibly went wrong.

Because it became fairly evident that Cannan wasn't the 'House for sale' rapist.

By discovering that the HFS rapist wasn't Cannan, it then broke any potential link between the murder of SB to the abduction of SL.

Cannan was linked very early on to the disappearance of SL; as evidenced by early news reports; essentially from the moment they found SB had been a victim of Cannan, but rather than pursue it further once the link to the HFS rapist was broken, they appear to have put Cannan in the background while they followed other leads.

Incidentally. the disappearance of actress and model; Gloria Bielby from Humberside in 1979, remains unsolved to this day.

The fact that Humberside police planned to visit Bristol to interview Cannan about Gloria's disappearance, perhaps implies that they knew Cannan had committed more murders than SB alone.

Fascinating indeed

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Sorry LSW. Where is Peabody Estate please. (Aussie here)

Fulham Palace Road. If ‘Sue’ lived here likely not affluent. It’s interesting that JC told the police he didn’t know Fulham at all & had never been. That does make me suspicious.

Ah, just noted this ‘Sue’ from Peabody - ‘helping’ JC buy a house.

Technically, it’s more Hammersmith re: Peabody.

In the doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ all evidence seems to be twisted to favour JC although it’s very title suggests not objective! Have you seen it?

Ali L, in it, from SuperHire infers this ‘Su Su’ or ‘Sue’ was SL. She wasn’t as the police presumably knew.

 

[Rookie D]

Not seeing any resemblance to Cannan.

The HFS rapist was also around 6ft and "muscular."

The idea that Cannan is sometimes still spoken of in the context of the HFS rapist from the Midlands, is utterly bizarre IMO.

The common pitfall of confirmation bias relating to geo-profiling.

This rapist doesn't appear to have any connection to the murder of SL

The rapist leaving behind a camera Tripod is particularly odd, especially when the murder victim; Shelley Morgan, in Bristol 1984, had a camera and tripod taken by her killer.

Coincidence?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Not seeing any resemblance to Cannan.

The HFS rapist was also around 6ft and "muscular."

The idea that Cannan is sometimes still spoken of in the context of the HFS rapist from the Midlands, is utterly bizarre IMO.

The common pitfall of confirmation bias relating to geo-profiling.

This rapist doesn't appear to have any connection to the murder of SL

View attachment 647167

The article upthread suggests JC was officially ruled out too but the temptation to link him proved too strong?

Anyone who watched the doc ‘The man who killed S L’ would be forgiven for thinking it was JC. NB: how ‘the house for sale rapist’ is covered here.

The thing is there is the odd bit of evidence that IMO does suggest JC likely or poss involvement but the nuggets get lost.

 

[Rookie D]

The Scotsman newspaper from July 1992.

Mr Kipper?...

View attachment 647162

If it was, then it wasn't Cannan.

IMO, this man's description sounds more like the man allegedly seen with SL.

 

[RichardKimble]

The article upthread suggests JC was officially ruled out too but the temptation to link him proved too strong?

Anyone who watched the doc ‘The man who killed S L’ would be forgiven for thinking it was JC. NB: how ‘the house for sale rapist’ is covered here.

The thing is there is the odd bit of evidence that IMO does suggest JC likely or poss involvement but the nuggets get lost.

Is that the ch4 one?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Is that the ch4 one?

I think so - if you google the title it should come up. Worth a watch.

 

[RichardKimble]

I think so - if you google the title it should come up. Worth a watch.

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.
In it JD says a report was submitted to the CPS, and in order to convince a judge there had been no abuse on two counts, the judge thought JC was tried by the media, 2 and these points are confusing imo."that police either had ,ignored,mislaid or did not use clues from the first investigation. "

So the 2nd investigation ignored clues from the original, did they point elsewhere away from JC? We also know that the CPS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.

21 minutes in,

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.

Thanks. That’s the one that names/suggests other ‘suspects’ (?)

TMWKSL doc earlier, circa 2000.

 

[WestLondoner]

I understand what is known as "Helens Law" in the UK where a conviction is obtained without the presence of a body. But how would this apply to Suzys case?

Close - Helen McCourt was a 22-year-old insurance clerk who was murdered in 1988 by the landlord of a local pub. Despite her body never being found he was convicted of her murder in 1989 - as you say, largely on forensic evidence: blood and a strand of her hair found in his car, and clothing found nearby. He got life. Helen's mother fought for decades to change the law around parole for killers who refuse to reveal the location of a victim's body. Helen's killer never did. Her efforts resulted in the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020, which has become known as "Helen's Law." It requires the Parole Board to consider whether a convicted murderer or paedophile has disclosed information about the whereabouts of a victim's remains or of indecent images.

The Scotsman newspaper from July 1992.

Mr Kipper?...

View attachment 647162

If it was, then it wasn't Cannan.

Excellent find. It can't be Cannan but off the description it could be the same man as at 37SR.

Cannan was linked very early on to the disappearance of SL; as evidenced by early news reports; essentially from the moment they found SB had been a victim of Cannan, but rather than pursue it further once the link to the HFS rapist was broken, they appear to have put Cannan in the background while they followed other leads.

View attachment 647164

Another excellent find - an original proving they knew JC was not the HFSR in 1987.

Fulham Palace Road.

Was it FPR or North End Road? The latter abuts Earl's Court and Hammersmith. PBs can be quite hard to locate. Makes no difference to your key point tho - "Su Su" the "uptown girl" was not SJL.

If ‘Sue’ lived here likely not affluent. It’s interesting that JC told the police he didn’t know Fulham at all & had never been. That does make me suspicious.

Ah, just noted this ‘Sue’ from Peabody - ‘helping’ JC buy a house.

Technically, it’s more Hammersmith re: Peabody.

In the doc ‘The Man Who Killed S L’ all evidence seems to be twisted to favour JC although it’s very title suggests not objective! Have you seen it?

Ali L, in it, from SuperHire infers this ‘Su Su’ or ‘Sue’ was SL. She wasn’t as the police presumably knew.

Do we know who she was? It's quite disgraceful in my view that this and the HFSR insinuation keep coming up to incriminate Cannan when the plod know perfectly well it's not true.

The idea that Cannan is sometimes still spoken of in the context of the HFS rapist from the Midlands, is utterly bizarre IMO.

Worse than bizarre: it's mendacious and quite sinister.

View attachment 647167

Brilliant find, well done. Exactly the cutting I've been after for years to prove the police knew the HFSR was the wrong age, build and appearance to be Cannan, which doesn't stop them insinuating that it was.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.
In it JD says a report was submitted to the CPS, and in order to convince a judge there had been no abuse on two counts, the judge thought JC was tried by the media, 2 and these points are confusing imo."that police either had ,ignored,mislaid or did not use clues from the first investigation. "

So the 2nd investigation ignored clues from the original, did they point elsewhere away from JC? We also know that the CPS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.

21 minutes in,

Point 1 - I understand. ‘Trial by media’.

Point 2 - The only way an investigation can progress is if it can be proven an earlier one didn’t make mistakes or lose clues?

What’s your interpretation here on point 2?

Thank you for posting this.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.
In it JD says a report was submitted to the CPS, and in order to convince a judge there had been no abuse on two counts, the judge thought JC was tried by the media, 2 and these points are confusing imo."that police either had ,ignored,mislaid or did not use clues from the first investigation. "

So the 2nd investigation ignored clues from the original, did they point elsewhere away from JC? We also know that the CPS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.

21 minutes in,

26:59 “the pubs & eating places I went to were principally local”. This is doubted but Ali L & Superhire buddies were Acton based. They are not likely to feel comfortable with toffs in Fulham/Chelsea winebars.

Which brings me back to TMWKSL doc - there is NO proof JC went to the POW & it certainly not a wine bar. Both are given as true facts.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.
In it JD says a report was submitted to the CPS, and in order to convince a judge there had been no abuse on two counts, the judge thought JC was tried by the media, 2 and these points are confusing imo."that police either had ,ignored,mislaid or did not use clues from the first investigation. "

So the 2nd investigation ignored clues from the original, did they point elsewhere away from JC? We also know that the CPS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.

21 minutes in,

26:59 “the pubs & eating places I went to were principally local”. This is doubted but Ali L & Superhire buddies were Acton based. They are not likely to feel comfortable with toffs in Fulham/Belgravia/Chelsea winebars. If they ever donned best togs it will have more likely been up West to Equinox in Leciester Sq - or whatever it was called then - but looking at them a working mens pub around Acton more their scene & this is exactly what JC says.

Which brings me back to TMWKSL doc - there is NO proof JC went to the POW & it certainly not a wine bar. Both are given as true facts.

 

[Rookie D]

I have just realised why the police may have tried to link Cannan with the HFS rapist who operated in the midlands; when Cannan entered the clothes shop during his botched attempt in Leamington Spa, Cannan wore a motorcycle helmet!

The HFS rapist always wore a motorcycle helmet.

But based on virtually every victim of the HFS rapist, the culprit was 6ft, muscular, and with light brown hair.

But we know that Cannan was responsible for the Leamington spa incident.


So what's happening here?


Well IMO, Cannan is deliberately acting as a copycat, by choosing to wear a motorcycle helmet that the HFS rapist always wore.

So when the police search Cannan's BMW after the 29th October Leamington Spa incident, they discover the tax disc for SB's car, that is then found in the garage.

The police then look for any other attempted assaults/rapes whereby the culprit has wore a motorbike helmet, and they then find that the HFS rapist always wore one, and that the location of the West Midlands also tied in with links to Cannan.

They have then made a link to SL through the fact she was abducted and was an estate agent, and the e-fit resembles Cannan, and because the dates tie in with Cannan having just left prison 3 days before SL's disappearance.

However, the HFS rapist clearly wasn't Cannan

Cannan was seemingly mimicking the HFS rapist, by walking into the shop in Leamington Spa with a motorcycle helmet on.


And if that's the case, did Cannan deliberately change SB's number plate to SLP 386S because he knew the police would make the link to him and SL?

Are we talking about a killer who was so brazen, that he almost wanted to get caught?

There's a phrase that I like to use when researching; "What's the point of an unknown serial killer?"
(Jack the Ripper being a prime example; remaining unknown being arguably his biggest achievement AND failure.)

In many ways. if Cannan was never caught, he would have been an unknown who faded into obscurity; whereas, by him getting caught in Leamington Spa, it's almost as though he deliberately dropped his own breadcrumbs for the police to find and make links to other crimes with.

There's a possibility that Cannan was more interested in the police thinking he had committed a lot more crimes than he actually had. Was Cannan so full of bull, that he believed his own lie?

Fascinating

 

[WestLondoner]

I have just realised why the police may have tried to link Cannan with the HFS rapist who operated in the midlands; when Cannan entered the clothes shop during his botched attempt in Leamington Spa, Cannan wore a motorcycle helmet!

The HFS rapist always wore a motorcycle helmet.

It's the one thing you can wear that hides your face without attracting instant suspicion. You're not hiding your face, you've just got a motorbike outside. Of course you have.

The police then look for any other attempted assaults/rapes whereby the culprit has wore a motorbike helmet, and they then find that the HFS rapist always wore one, and that the location of the West Midlands also tied in with links to Cannan.

They have then made a link to SL through the fact she was abducted and was an estate agent, and the e-fit resembles Cannan, and because the dates tie in with Cannan having just left prison 3 days before SL's disappearance.

Completely plausible linkage that was duly dismissed - but keeps getting revived by retired LE.

There's a possibility that Cannan was more interested in the police thinking he had committed a lot more crimes than he actually had. Was Cannan so full of bull, that he believed his own lie?

Possibly; he never revealed anything that shows he knew stuff about SJL's disappearance that was not in the public domain.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I have just realised why the police may have tried to link Cannan with the HFS rapist who operated in the midlands; when Cannan entered the clothes shop during his botched attempt in Leamington Spa, Cannan wore a motorcycle helmet!

The HFS rapist always wore a motorcycle helmet.

But based on virtually every victim of the HFS rapist, the culprit was 6ft, muscular, and with light brown hair.

But we know that Cannan was responsible for the Leamington spa incident.


So what's happening here?


Well IMO, Cannan is deliberately acting as a copycat, by choosing to wear a motorcycle helmet that the HFS rapist always wore.

So when the police search Cannan's BMW after the 29th October Leamington Spa incident, they discover the tax disc for SB's car, that is then found in the garage.

The police then look for any other attempted assaults/rapes whereby the culprit has wore a motorbike helmet, and they then find that the HFS rapist always wore one, and that the location of the West Midlands also tied in with links to Cannan.

They have then made a link to SL through the fact she weas abducted and was an estate agent, and because the dates tie in with Cannan having just left prison 3 days before SL's disappearance.

However, the HFS rapist clearly wasn't Cannan

Cannan was seemingly mimicking the HFS rapist, by walking into the shop in Leamington Spa with a motorcycle helmet on.


And if that's the case, did Cannan deliberately change SB's number plate to SLP 386S because he knew the police would make the link to him and SL?

Are we talking about a killer who was so brazen, that he almost wanted to get caught?

There's a phrase that I like to use when researching; "What's the point of an unknown serial killer?"

In many ways. if Cannan was never caught, he would have been an unknown who faded into obscurity; whereas, by him getting caught in Leamington Spa, it's almost as though he deliberately dropped his own breadcrumbs for the police to find and make links to other crimes with.

There's a possibility that Cannan was more interested in the police thinking he had committed a lot more crimes than he actually had. Was Cannan so full of bull, that he believed his own lie?

Fascinating

I noticed that detail on crash helmet too - very interesting. Could it be much more common then as means of disguise? A way of drifting in legitimately in old days to banks etc if nefarious intent really goal, a good cover? Many robbers did this back in day - hence signs everywhere in shops/banks all helmets have to be removed.

I think that’s a v good idea re: deliberate showboating & we should/could explore.

My thinking on looking closely at his interviews with Saunders & Barley is he is OTT in wanting to distance himself from SL case. Opposite of any oblique hints or boasts when chips are down: “it must be the man I bought SB’s mini from who killed SB & SL” to paraphrase.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Ah no, the ch4 one is in the footsteps of killers, Fox and Wilson present it.
In it JD says a report was submitted to the CPS, and in order to convince a judge there had been no abuse on two counts, the judge thought JC was tried by the media, 2 and these points are confusing imo."that police either had ,ignored,mislaid or did not use clues from the first investigation. "

So the 2nd investigation ignored clues from the original, did they point elsewhere away from JC? We also know that the CPS said JC and SJL could not be placed together.

21 minutes in,

27:24 about here Wilson & EF say/imply that JC wasn’t telling truth about frugal life in 80s in hostel days as he writes in letter about girls galore & glam life with sharp suits. The sharp eyed will see ‘Leigh’ as in Leigh Woods in letter & then Wilson & SF talk about his BMW (!) or it is flagged in letter. Crucially JC is clearly talking about life post hostel!

I can also see GP name in letter again - 1987!

It is true pre imprisonment he had a good life & many lovers but we can’t or shouldn’t take things out of context to beef up case against JC/for good TV if that’s what’s happening here?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

All 1987. This part of the letter all about his life post hostel, possibly rather conveniently but you can’t extrapolate bits of choice to fit July 86. He didn’t own the BMW then!

All that said we can pick up what he might NOT be telling us. I think on surface he was leading a workaday life at hostel but he did have access to more than £300 pw - it’s interesting there might be a sensitivity there.