UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

In these two Crimewatch reconstructions (the original one and a later one) of the day Suzy went missing, one thing that sticks out to me, that I've never heard before, is Suzy wore a hat the day she went missing!

Yes, the hat came up later it seems. Odd as not a particularly warm & sunny day. In fact, gloomy. As someone said upthread they stopped play on cricket due to gloom/visibility.

 

[WestLondoner]

the info is madness. he was in prison, so he cant be bristol businessman, and why travel over hundred miles to dispose of SL body.

Both good points. The affair with a Bristol businessman cannot possibly be JC but like the HFSR nonsense is trotted out to insinuate his guilt even though police know both to be quite untrue. If they're so sure it was him, why are they fortifying their public case with untruths? Who on earth does that when they've got a decently-constructed case?

The travel thing is also relevant. When before July 1986 had Cannan had the leisure to inspect routes between Bristol and Birmingham for deposition sites?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

this reconstruction was aired 14 yrs later. SL would not wear a hat for a viewing. it would be distracting to the client in my opinion. its the type a sloane would wear to ascot or wimbledon.

It’s a very basic hat for an event like that. I feel it’s a bit of a red herring, agree, although MJ’s early witness statement quite compelling - hat aside.

DL said SL loved a hat & I felt (understandably) clung to these small details. This very hat can be seen on the L’s hatstand in their porch in documentaries.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

yes, that is what i heard that GP retracted her statement. it would not surprise me if JC never even said it. info like this is not good strong evidence.

Yes I also recall reading about her retracting her statement, but do we know when and under what circumstances? She sold her story to the Sun at some point later didn't - I think 1989 following Cannan's conviction for Shirley Banks.

 

[Rookie D]

The GP account was really powerful, the haunting account & him driving down lanes. His eyes changing to those of a psychopath & flagging SL out of nowhere & her murder & burial. This makes me consider him more seriously somehow.

What's interesting here, is that GP talks about driving down lanes that are winding etc... but the Norton barracks was located just off of the junction M5 motorway at junction 7; the route to which from the motorway being a relatively quick and easy journey, that doesn't involve winding roads.

However, if Cannan instead took the earlier M5 junction 8, he could have travelled up towards the barracks via winding B-roads that run virtually parallel to the M5 on one side, and the Severn River on the other side.

This would take Cannan through the village of Clifton, which is also the name of an area of Bristol.

This route would have taken Cannan about 20 minutes.

So there may be a chance that SL (if Cannan was telling the truth) is buried somewhere between junction 8 and 7 of the M5 motorway, possibly near the stretch of the river Severn (that runs close to Clifton village) that runs south of Norton Barracks.

The "concrete" reference is odd, but it may explain why her remains have never been found.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Barley said in recent podcast JC had raped GP. That does sound a very chilling account indeed.

This is something I'd never heard before that podcast. Odd.

 

[Rookie D]

What's interesting here, is that GP talks about driving down lanes that are winding etc... but the Norton barracks was located just off of the junction M5 motorway at junction 7; the route to which from the motorway being a relatively quick and easy journey, that doesn't involve winding roads.

However, if Cannan instead took the earlier M5 junction 8, he could have travelled up towards the barracks via winding B-roads that run virtually parallel to the M5 on one side, and the Severn River on the other side.

This would take Cannan through the village of Clifton, which is also the name of an area of Bristol.

This route would have taken Cannan about 20 minutes.

So there may be a chance that SL (if Cannan was telling the truth) is buried somewhere between junction 8 and 7 of the M5 motorway, possibly near the stretch of the river Severn (that runs close to Clifton village) that runs south of Norton Barracks.

The "concrete" reference is odd, but it may explain why her remains have never been found.

And of course, with a village called Clifton located just south of Norton barracks, and then JC moving to Bristol and living in a flat close to Clifton suspension bridge, could that be another one of his silly little games?

And be a clue to where he deposited SL?

 

[Kasparthecat1]

It’s a very basic hat for an event like that. I feel it’s a bit of a red herring, agree, although MJ’s early witness statement quite compelling - hat aside.

DL said SL loved a hat & I felt (understandably) clung to these small details. This very hat can be seen on the L’s hatstand in their porch in documentaries.

Agree the hat is a red herring. To me it looks like something you'd wear on a beach to keep the sun off, not something you'd conduct a house viewing in or go to a wedding in. And it was found on the parcel shelf of the Fiesta - how did it get there if SJL was wearing it? Did she return to the car later?

If MJ's couple did not come forward ( I don't think they did, did they?) then that makes the account of the couple interesting. Were they the same couple even that was supposedly seen knocking back champagne in Bishop's Park?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Both good points. The affair with a Bristol businessman cannot possibly be JC but like the HFSR nonsense is trotted out to insinuate his guilt even though police know both to be quite untrue. If they're so sure it was him, why are they fortifying their public case with untruths? Who on earth does that when they've got a decently-constructed case?

The travel thing is also relevant. When before July 1986 had Cannan had the leisure to inspect routes between Bristol and Birmingham for deposition sites?

Just to play devil’s advocate, although you’re unfortunately seemingly right on untruths & exaggerations:

1. Bristol businessman - SL apparently said to Mum she was seeing one who was scary around May 86 - from Bristol. I do think it’s poss JC set himself up as one as he’d been jailed there (Bristol) & saw as aspirational place he wanted to live one day. Indeed, that’s where he went later in 86. Also AR link.

He conned ‘upmarket’ Sue near Peabody so was affecting businessman guise. Did he say he was a Bristol businessman? Possible. Deflects nicely on his London proximity.

She had an earlier affair with a Bristol or West Country businessman in 84 so there’s a confusion here which made DV etc rule out any link to Bristol.

2. Using a car to go out on trips

The fact JC took over Taggart’s HP on the red sierra meant he was getting good use out of it. We know he went on a jolly to Poole in Dorset so why not his favourite places elsewhere (?) Home leave also super relaxed.

It did feel like this was a very lax halfway hostel (!) with unenforced curfews etc.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Abduction serial killers often choose to travel a considerable distance in order to deposit their victim.

It's not just the act of killing that they enjoy, but rather the process of abducting, controlling, and spending some time with their victim before they kill them; all the while enabling time for the victim to feel fearful of their life, and even give them false hope that they will be spared.

Abduction and Deposition sites are often far enough away from each other for the police to have a tougher time in tracing the culprit.

By a killer travelling across jurisdictional boundaries, it makes the job of the police all that bit harder.

So one would expect that the man who abducted SL, is likely to have travelled outside of the local buffer zone in which the victim was taken.

It's important to differentiate between the abduction site, the kill site, and the deposition site, as they can all be vastly different in terms of geographical location.

If the killer did drive SL out of London then the obvious choice from Fulham, would be west via the M4...towards Bristol.

But the killer may have taken her to a lock up/bolt hole first, and then drove her to the deposition site later.

I think along similar lines. We know that JC drove Shirley Banks 40 odd miles to the Quantocks to (probably) kill and dispose of her body. Bristol is surrounded by water - the docks, the Avon and the Severn Estuary/ Bristol Channel. `She may never have been found if dumped in one of those locations. Yet he drove her - still alive presumably - probably in daylight - to a popular tourist spot.

If we follow the this rationale, JMO of course but it is conceivable that if JC is responsible he could easily have headed down the M4 towards Bristol - a familiar route alongside which there are plenty of sites, including large bodies of water to the south of Reading en route. It's around 40 miles.

Or possibly a slip road, like Melanie Hall. Her killer not yet found.

So plenty of options, assuming possession of a car.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

This is something I'd never heard before that podcast. Odd.

I wonder, if unfortunately, she was raped, that’s why there are conflicting stories out there with slightly altered details (?)

GP formed part of case re: prosecuting JC for SL & police’s ‘failure’ here problematic, their ‘failure to debrief ( GP) the witness’ as stated .

 

[rvlvr]

Yes I also recall reading about her retracting her statement, but do we know when and under what circumstances? She sold her story to the Sun at some point later didn't - I think 1989 following Cannan's conviction for Shirley Banks.

DV writes about GP in his book (chapter 47), noting that she’d “been interviewed extensively by the police at the time of [Cannan’s 1987] arrest, and she’d provided nothing of any real evidential value.”

He continues:

But following Cannan’s conviction in 1989, newspaper stories began to suggest that Gilly was in receipt of rather more information than she had shared with the police, particularly with regard to what Cannan knew about Suzy Lamplugh.

Two years later, in 1991, on the fifth anniversary of Suzy’s disappearance, the press once again suggested that Cannan had revealed lurid details to Gilly about how and where Suzy might have been raped and killed. The media alleged that this communication between the two had happened during a drive through the West Midlands in 1987, a year after Suzy’s disappearance, when they had visited a notorious ‘lovers’ lane spot’ at the disused Norton Brickworks, near to the former Norton Barracks.

None of these very specific allegations were to be found in Gilly’s original police statement.

There’s more:

It’s not entirely clear whether Gilly sold these lurid tales to the media, or whether the information was attributed to her dishonestly by persons unknown or the media itself. But it was here, from the newspapers, the idea that Suzy might be buried at Norton Barracks began.

Of course, in 1991, the allegations in the newspaper caused quite a stir, re-emerging as they did on the fifth anniversary of Suzy’s disappearance. As a direct result of these wild stories, the police were forced to establish what the facts actually were.

This fell to Det. Supt Brian Edwards of the Met, the man who, by 1991, was the officer in charge of Suzy’s case. Gilly Paige was tracked down and the pair spoke at length on the phone about what was being claimed in the press. During the call, Gilly retracted everything in the articles, saying that none of it had ever happened. She specifically quashed all suggestions and innuendo that Cannan had ever confessed to raping and murdering Suzy Lamplugh.

Scotland Yard moved immediately to stop the rumours from spreading further, releasing a statement to the press denying that there was any evidence linking Cannan to Suzy’s disappearance, a stance they had maintained ever since the media had first tried to link Cannan to Suzy’s case.

On Gilly Paige’s dealings with them in 1991, the police announced in a statement: ‘She has not repeated some of the statements attributed to her by the media and she stands by the statement she made to Avon and Somerset Police some considerable time ago.’

Publicly, and following the police intervention, Gilly firmly denied that Cannan had ever confessed to her that he was responsible for Suzy’s disappearance, saying that she was not prepared to discuss the circumstances surrounding it and that she had told the police all she knew at the time.

 

[Konstantin]

Many thanks to whoever gifted me a sub

Look at the wonderful range of reaction emojis you now have!! You can laugh and roll your eyes.

 

[Konstantin]

Agree the hat is a red herring. To me it looks like something you'd wear on a beach to keep the sun off, not something you'd conduct a house viewing in or go to a wedding in. And it was found on the parcel shelf of the Fiesta - how did it get there if SJL was wearing it? Did she return to the car later?

If MJ's couple did not come forward ( I don't think they did, did they?) then that makes the account of the couple interesting. Were they the same couple even that was supposedly seen knocking back champagne in Bishop's Park?

I think it was drizzling for part of the day so I have difficulty with imagining SL sitting on the damp grass in her nice skirt drinking tepid champagne out of a plastic glass. None of that seems her style at all.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

DV writes about GP in his book (chapter 47), noting that she’d “been interviewed extensively by the police at the time of [Cannan’s 1987] arrest, and she’d provided nothing of any real evidential value.”

He continues:



There’s more:

That’s very clear. Thank you.

The police failure to fully debrief at earliest time perhaps loses any connecting thread to SL that might have been there.

The account she apparently gave is very scary & compelling - the particular one about his eyes. If he did rape her this might explain why she was unwilling to revisit anything again.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

DV writes about GP in his book (chapter 47), noting that she’d “been interviewed extensively by the police at the time of [Cannan’s 1987] arrest, and she’d provided nothing of any real evidential value.”

He continues:



There’s more:

Thank you. So Gilly stands by her original statement, which was not particularly useful from an evidential point of view it seems, and the later more lurid stuff may or may not be attributed to Gilly herself. I wonder where MB got the idea from then that Gilly had been raped by JC? Her original statement to police?

 

[WestLondoner]

Abduction serial killers often choose to travel a considerable distance in order to deposit their victim.

Perhaps so but I struggle with the idea that in July 1986 JC would have drive 130 miles to dump a body. He can't have had that many opportunities to recce the area at that point, and later, after he had had time from living in the area, he only went 40 miles from Bristol with SB. Not to say it's impossible.

1. Bristol businessman - SL apparently said to Mum she was seeing one who was scary around May 86 - from Bristol. I do think it’s poss JC set himself up as one as he’d been jailed there (Bristol) & saw as aspirational place he wanted to live one day. Indeed, that’s where he went later in 86. Also AR link.

When she was a beautician in 1984 (1982?) she also mentioned a Bristol businessman, married IIRC. This one is often co-opted as the evidence for a Cannan connection even though he was in the slammer at the time. I suspect any 1986 Bristol connection he claimed would have been based on where AR was to be found.

Look at the wonderful range of reaction emojis you now have!! You can laugh and roll your eyes.

If only Whitehall1212 were still here! I could do both!

 

[WestLondoner]

I wonder where MB got the idea from then that Gilly had been raped by JC? Her original statement to police?

Probably confused her with his other three rape convictions.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

On the surface of it, if appears then, GP didn’t necessarily flag SL or lurid detail but she did go on trips with him & oddly insist on secrecy on names etc. Also, unfortunately, the account from GP - apparently from her directly where he asked her to get out & go into the woods might fit with a rape.

She apparently said she had a breakdown & if as Barley said was raped then you can understand why wouldn’t want ever to revisit (!)

AR also didn’t want to revisit anything to do with JC. Some said JC had discussed SL with AR - prior to SL going missing. IF so very important.

Thank you. So Gilly stands by her original statement, which was not particularly useful from an evidential point of view it seems, and the later more lurid stuff may or may not be attributed to Gilly herself. I wonder where MB got the idea from then that Gilly had been raped by JC? Her original statement to police

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Probably confused her with his other three rape convictions.

There shouldn’t be any confusion but you could well be right.