UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Out of curiosity , there was a house for sale in Stevenage Road, directly opposite Bishop's Park, that was on sale in October 1985.

Sturgis managed the sale

Here is the property in question...

View attachment 648217

This advertisement was from around 10 months before SL vanished, but my point is that based on the description of the property above; loft conversion, secluded garden, fitted cellar, outside toilet, walk through brick built shed etc... would arguably be an excellent place for someone to conceal a body.

So my question is; could Suzy Lamplugh have been taken into one of the properties within close proximity of Stevenage Road, and then murdered inside the property?

Is there a chance that SL never left Stevenage Road, and that her remains are in still in one of the houses close to where her car was found?

Could the killer have recently purchased a house from Sturgis, that SL sold to him prior to when she went missing?

SL worked at Sturgis for around 18 months IIRC?

I would check every house sale that SL was involved with that was purchased by a male local to the area, from the time she first started working at Sturgis.


Interestingly, the property above would have been on the market when SL was working at Sturgis.

Was this one of the properties that she sold?


Curious.

If the police did anything well they looked into Sturgis clients efficiently, past, present - by the hundred. The thought was this ‘deal’ was with a client. They spent a huge amount of time here.

What they didn’t seem to do was assume this deal was with a contact in her lost book etc. This proved harder to verify, those that they did speak to had spurious reasons for knowing her. They apparently didn’t finish checking them all.

I don’t deny surmises though & very much agree or lean towards, this being an ‘in plain sight’ - re: the answers - case.

 

[Rookie D]

This was one of the e-fits used for the HFS Rapist from MAY 1980...

and this is another of the same man from JULY 1980...

The key here is that this is meant to be the same man.


In fact; here is another series of THREE e-fits for the same man from AUGUST 1980...

Note that the face on the far right looks somewhat similar to the 2nd e-fit of Mr Kipper.

So what does this tell us?


That e-fits are subjective and generally unreliable when it comes to identify a suspect.

IMO, the only face above that comes anywhere close to resembling Cannan, is the man on the far right, but even then, there are distinct differences.

It's important to note that all these e-fits are from 1980, and predate the disappearance of SL.

I think that JC may have deliberately worn a motor cycle helmet for his botched assault in Leamington Spa; that ultimately proved he was the man who murdered SB, because he was trying to copycat the HFS rapist from 1980.

Cannan knew he shared a geographical connection with the HFS rapist to the West Midlands, and so he may have used the Motorcycle helmet as a way to make the police believe the HFS rapist had tried to strike again.

But Cannan and the HFS rapist weren't the same man.

I think there's some credence in the idea that Cannan may have used copycatted elements of other crimes for use in his own crimes. A good way to shift blame onto another killer/abductor/predator etc...

In summary, the over reliance of e-fits can often shield investigators from seeing the truth.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

This was one of the e-fits used for the HFS Rapist from MAY 1980...

View attachment 648219


and this is another of the same man from JULY 1980...

View attachment 648218

The key here is that this is meant to be the same man.


In fact; here is another series of THREE e-fits for the same man from AUGUST 1980...

View attachment 648220

Note that the face on the far right looks somewhat similar to the 2nd e-fit of Mr Kipper.

So what does this tell us?


That e-fits are subjective and generally unreliable when it comes to identify a suspect.

IMO, the only face above that comes anywhere close to resembling Cannan, is the man on the far right, but even then, there are distinct differences.

It's important to note that all these e-fits are from 1980, and predate the disappearance of SL.

I think that JC may have deliberately worn a motor cycle helmet for his botched assault in Leamington Spa; that ultimately proved he was the man who murdered SB, because he was trying to copycat the HFS rapist from 1980.

Cannan knew he shared a geographical connection with the HFS rapist to the West Midlands, and so he may have used the Motorcycle helmet as a way to make the police believe the HFS rapist had tried to strike again.

But Cannan and the HFS rapist weren't the same man.

I think there's some credence in the idea that Cannan may have used copycatted elements of other crimes for use in his own crimes. A good way to shift blame onto another killer/abductor/predator etc...

In summary, the over reliance of e-fits can often shield investigators from seeing the truth.

Totally agree on efits.

Motor cycle helmets were so common though in 80s & before as a form of disguise when up to no good. Valerio Viccei & others. Petrol stations, etc began to ban & signs everywhere asking customers to remove. Almost as common as wearing gloves to avoid leaving prints.

For that reason I think a copycat situation very unlikely especially as not a known MO for JC, but who knows (?)

 

[WestLondoner]

In summary, the over reliance of e-fits can often shield investigators from seeing the truth.

The stewards' inquiry into the Ripper fiasco noted that George Oldfield was dismissive of e-fits / photofits, and ignored them. When later they took every e-fit they had of every stranger attack in the north of England in the last ten years, blew them up to A4 size and covered an entire wall with them, it was very obviously the face of Peter Sutcliffe. Some had the face too thin or too wide, some had the hair length different and there were a couple of outliers that looked nothing like him. But taken together he was as recognisable as, say, King Charles.

I suspect the value of e-fits maybe in the "average" face that emerges from a large number of them.

 

[Konstantin]

Thank Christ you have come

Did he call a taxi or was he popping out for a Mickey D for his lunch, and hailed a passing cab in response to overhearing a fight?

 

[Rookie D]

I am fairly sure this has been part of the insinuation that the HFSR was Cannan because Cannan was indeed jailed in 1980 IIRC. Unfortunately the case that this was Cannan collapses when you consider the age, height, and facial appearance of the offender.

I was very close to the Helen McCourt investigation. My uncle Brian ( RIP ) was the drayman for the pub and saw and spoke with Simms the day after her disappearance. In addition, the forensic evidence that sealed Simms fate was one of Helen’s earrings found in Simms bed in his living accommodation above the pub. In the 1990’s I had the pleasure of being the Police supervisor of a new young recruit- Mike McCourt. Growing up and observing the way in which the Police dealt with Helen’s disappearance and subsequent murder , Mike was so enamoured by them that he decided to give back to community policing and he joined Merseyside Police where I supervised him at Walton Lane police station. It was always believed and is still to this day as far as I’m aware, it’s believed that Simms disposed of Helen’s body in the quarry of a local mine which was no longer open but consisted of mainly lime and it’s believed that the quantity of lime present wss sufficient to have absorbed and destroyed her body. Due to the decade that this occurred, cadaver dogs were not yet available and were a thing of the present, many years later. It’s so sad because even now her mum Marie McCourt , still spends her time searching for her daughter. She subsequently lobbied for and won the passing of a bill in parliament called Helen’s law’ which means that now, if a convicted perpetrator refuses to state where a body has been concealed, he will not be allowed to apply to parole for early release and although the sitting judges who alongside MP’s were responsible for the bills passing, sadly it could not be applied retroactively meaning that Simms was paroled by the time Helen’s law was enacted,sadly. My uncle Brian who worked for the local brewery ‘ Greenalls ‘ operating in Warrington and which covered the St Helens site , knew Simms for a number of years and although my uncle had such an amazing personality and got along well with all the public houses for which he was their drayman, always noted that Simms was a really strange fellow and was the only PH he visited where Simms wouldn’t engage and described Simms as very strange in manner wich was so unusual to my uncle because he was so universally liked by all his customers, he could never quite engage in any rappour with Simms due to what he called as long as he had known Simms throughout his years visiting the republican houses on his routes

Excellent post indeed.

Yes, it's a shame that the law only came into fruition in January 2021, almost a year after Simms was released on licence.

It's interesting that you state that one of McCourt's earrings was found in Simms bed, as I always thought this item was found on the carpet; but I haven't looked at this case for a while, so my recollection of the data is a bit sketchy.

The good thing about Simms is that he wasn't forensically aware, and the forensic evidence against him was overwhelming, compelling, and conclusive.

He of course took the secret of McCourt's deposition site to his grave, but I concur with the idea of the quarry as being a likely place in which he concealed the body.
It's interesting that he chose to strip her first, and that is perhaps another clue as to the location of the deposition site.

The proximity to the M6 is also something to consider, as many killers choose to leave their buffer zone and deposit their victim in an alternate location.
That said, there appears to be no indication that Simms was a serial killer; unless of course there were other victims who are unaccounted for.

The only positive from this case, was that "Helen's Law" was finally passed, and whilst it does have its critics, I feel it's a positive step forward.

Thank you for your intriguing insight into this particular case.

 

[lee sumner]

Hi all

In light of some of these news articles (of the 'friends statements' about the parties and the tennis and the wine bar and what not) Make of those what you will but someone obviously spoke about it at the time. Possibly to DL and PL , but also to the papers.

I have to question IMH - Why has not one person who was her friend come forward (other than JH and a couple of interviews with AL and NB) in 40 years to say anything? (not including DVs interviews or the AS book). Do the 'Putney Set" all just accept that JC was the person responsible despite the obvious red flags in her personal life that would suggest in the first instance that JC was way off the mark in terms of her social status etc.
(and we can include PSS and TS here inthis grouping too). AL and NBs interviews in DV (yes AL was weird no doubt about that, but NB did not give much away either when you really re read what he said to DV theres not alot of guts in it) Not suggesting anything untoward here.

These people - friends and I mean girlfriends who you talk your love life to. Someone has to know something. (um where is SH, was she her bestie? It is said that TL was her bestie but there must have been someone else as well at least. Someone she confided in . The acquaintances (Putney Set). Talking about the parties, the man watching her at CT, and tennis and enquiring after her etc etc. Why has noone come forward to this day to say anything since 1986?

These people are now 60+ years old. It is almost inconceivable that no person knows nothing (sorry thats really bad grammar).

Time can reveal alot can't it. Maybe someone would talk if they were prompted though I cannot see how this is not forefront in their minds after all this time and the interest SLs case still holds to this day.

I find this all really really odd. Sure SW's previous wife has recently come forward, its probably a long shot but at least she has put it out there .

I am not saying JC was not responsible here , all I am saying is that there appears to be a wall of silence from the people who probably had an inkling about what was actually going on in her life to some extent.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this angle. Again I am novice 101 here

maybe SL friends like the putney set dont realise they know more. detective carter and his team thought they were like clones repeating the same stories, plus we now know SL herself was a mystery woman who kept a lot of her life private. i would love to read the original case file to see what everyone said in there statements.

 

[lee sumner]

Hi Yes
Pg 87 AS book

They arrived a week after TS landed at Heathrow (but AS says despite careful scrutiny they produced no significant new clues)

Interesting that TS says in this article SL had mentioned some new names.

it took 2 weeks for TL to come home. iam not having a go at her, but she stayed on holiday for another fortnight while everyone is searching and wondering what has happened to SL. I suppose some people cope with tragedy is different ways.

 

[lee sumner]

I have seen one online of them together in the past i will try and find it 4 of the crew together 2 men and 2 women

thanks. i would love to see it.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

maybe SL friends like the putney set dont realise they know more. detective carter and his team thought they were like clones repeating the same stories, plus we now know SL herself was a mystery woman who kept a lot of her life private. i would love to read the original case file to see what everyone said in there statements.

Her flatmate - pre NB -said another group of people would ring up - not ‘Putney set’ friends but another circle (?)

It was assumed any deal was with a past or present Sturgis client & any contact link from ‘secret’ book not investigated as thoroughly.

I guess no one on Sturgis database could bat away they had never had interest in buying or selling a flat or house when probed. Easy for a personal ‘contact’.

 

[kes1972]

the photo SW father has, but no one has ever seen.

Ah so, he was a ‘planner’ - will look at him a bit more. Surely a lunch time snatch not best idea?

SL’s effective recent reunion with QE2 folks interesting, I think, as so very recent.

I do think the danger with this case is you see coincidences wherever you look. MJ’s husband a likely chef on QE2 (in Stevenage Rd) in period of SL, etc, for example (although obviously not a SW! & uninvolved).

Maybe sl see something untoward ?

 

[lee sumner]

Was the 2nd e-fit of Mr Kipper produced as a direct result of BW's sighting of SL driving the Fiesta north up Fulham Palace Road with a man sitting next to her?

no, second efit of mr kipper was from doyle sighting on shorrolds rd.

 

[kes1972]

no, second efit of mr kipper was from doyle sighting on shorrolds rd.

Just a big thought, dis clive barwell own a property on finlay, ellerby or doneraile street? If so ???

 

[kes1972]

Just a big thought, did clive barwell own a property on finlay, ellerby or doneraile street? If so ???

Or donald robertson

 

[lee sumner]

Totally agree on efits.

Motor cycle helmets were so common though in 80s & before as a form of disguise when up to no good. Valerio Viccei & others. Petrol stations, etc began to ban & signs everywhere asking customers to remove. Almost as common as wearing gloves to avoid leaving prints.

For that reason I think a copycat situation very unlikely especially as not a known MO for JC, but who knows (?)

wearing the helmet was stupid as the shop owner, carmel cleary was suspicious as soon as he walked in the shop. thank god she managed to bolt out the front door shouting, there is a man with a knife in my shop. JC now knows he has lost control of the scene and runs off down the street still wearing the helmet and now being chased by 2 men. the rest is history.

 

[lee sumner]

Excellent post indeed.

Yes, it's a shame that the law only came into fruition in January 2021, almost a year after Simms was released on licence.

It's interesting that you state that one of McCourt's earrings was found in Simms bed, as I always thought this item was found on the carpet; but I haven't looked at this case for a while, so my recollection of the data is a bit sketchy.

The good thing about Simms is that he wasn't forensically aware, and the forensic evidence against him was overwhelming, compelling, and conclusive.

He of course took the secret of McCourt's deposition site to his grave, but I concur with the idea of the quarry as being a likely place in which he concealed the body.
It's interesting that he chose to strip her first, and that is perhaps another clue as to the location of the deposition site.

The proximity to the M6 is also something to consider, as many killers choose to leave their buffer zone and deposit their victim in an alternate location.
That said, there appears to be no indication that Simms was a serial killer; unless of course there were other victims who are unaccounted for.

The only positive from this case, was that "Helen's Law" was finally passed, and whilst it does have its critics, I feel it's a positive step forward.

Thank you for your intriguing insight into this particular case.

i have a interest in the mccourt case. the evidence simms left behind was incredible, but to think helen mccourt was never found is strange.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Did he call a taxi or was he popping out for a Mickey D for his lunch, and hailed a passing cab in response to overhearing a fight?

Both I think - ‘thank Christ you came when you did’ suggests looking for one anyway maybe (?) It just feels an odd (?) extravagance for an ordinary chap to use a black cab for a short hop (?)

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

The stewards' inquiry into the Ripper fiasco noted that George Oldfield was dismissive of e-fits / photofits, and ignored them. When later they took every e-fit they had of every stranger attack in the north of England in the last ten years, blew them up to A4 size and covered an entire wall with them, it was very obviously the face of Peter Sutcliffe. Some had the face too thin or too wide, some had the hair length different and there were a couple of outliers that looked nothing like him. But taken together he was as recognisable as, say, King Charles.

I suspect the value of e-fits maybe in the "average" face that emerges from a large number of them.

Yes, agree. Has it helped as tech has evolved? The better known JC ‘efit’ was created by a Putney artist I think - more £ allocated here re: HR’s glimpse?

The other Shorrolds witness - don’t have my copy of AS to hand to check who it was re: efit - arguably got the better look (?) & no artist allocated (?)

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

On other group/s of friends ‘always calling’ NB: 1988 article. After the police had ruled out Sturgis re: mystery client other contacts needed a very deep dive. No point just focusing mainly on Putney friends. Is the clue in the contact book Putney friends & family didn’t know about (?)

 

[Kasparthecat1]

no, second efit of mr kipper was from doyle sighting on shorrolds rd.

Was this the witness who was vague about the time of the sighting?

Am I right in thinking that only one witness at SR saw the beribboned bottle?