UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #8

[lee sumner]

If the police did anything well they looked into Sturgis clients efficiently, past, present - by the hundred. The thought was this ‘deal’ was with a client. They spent a huge amount of time here.

What they didn’t seem to do was assume this deal was with a contact in her lost book etc. This proved harder to verify, those that they did speak to had spurious reasons for knowing her. They apparently didn’t finish checking them all.

I don’t deny surmises though & very much agree or lean towards, this being an ‘in plain sight’ - re: the answers - case.

DCI carter and his team checked every single appointment SL attended to see if they were genuine. they would have questioned every single client she did business with since starting at sturgis in early 1985. it appears SL never falsified any viewing while she was there, so i like carter believe mr kipper booked the appointment to view 37/SR.

 

[lee sumner]

maybe SL friends like the putney set dont realise they know more. detective carter and his team thought they were like clones repeating the same stories, plus we now know SL herself was a mystery woman who kept a lot of her life private. i would love to read the original case file to see what everyone said in there statements.

if i was interviewing the players in the case like, putney set, AL, NB, ETC, i would be asking key questions about SL and her life, but nobody seems to do this. all we ever hear is JC did it. we need to go back to basics. occams principle way of thinking.

 

[lee sumner]

Both I think - ‘thank Christ you came when you did’ suggests looking for one anyway maybe (?) It just feels an odd (?) extravagance for an ordinary chap to use a black cab for a short hop (?)

Yes, agree. Has it helped as tech has evolved? The better known JC ‘efit’ was created by a Putney artist I think - more £ allocated here re: HR’s glimpse?

The other Shorrolds witness - don’t have my copy of AS to hand to check who it was re: efit - arguably got the better look (?) & no artist allocated (?)

re, george oldfield. he thought a geordie was coming to leeds,bradford,manchester to commit murder. he ignored women who survived ripper attacks, like olive smelt and tracy brown these women spoke to sutcliffe before they were attacked, so they knew he had a yorkshire accent, but he chose not to listen to them to feed his ego. enjoying the cat and mouse game between detective and serial killer, or so he thought. he made a fool of himself during ripper investigatiion.

 

[Rookie D]

I agree, but what if Mr Kipper arranged to MEET outside 37SR, but it wasn't that house in particular that he was interested in?


So here's a little random working hypothesis...

All conjecture and supposition, but worth a punt I'd say...




So SL goes directly to Stevenage Road and parks up outside another Sturgis property, and then gets into Mr Kipper's car in Stevenage Road, and they then head to 37SR together.

But because the killer takes his thrill from the process and not just the kill, he bides his time and gets her to trust him.

He drops her off outside 37SR, and then goes to park up, and she is seen shortly after but the witness who sees her standing alone outside 37SR. He nips to the shop and gets a bottle of champagne and then goes to 37SR. They are then seen standing outside 37SR, but he then says he wants to look at more Sturgis properties because he's not overly keen on 37SR.

They then go for lunch in the Fulham Road, after he convinces her that he will buy a property if she goes on a lunch date with him over a celebratory glass of champagne. SL is eager to seal the deal and agrees.

They go for lunch and then he drops her back to Stevenage Road in his car, close to where her car is already parked outside 123 Stevenage Road; a Sturgis property.

She tells him she needs to get back to the office, but he convinces her to look for another property with him. She then grabs her hat from the car to look incognito because she's late back to the office.
They then walk along Stevenage Road, and look at another property in a neighbouring street; as witnessed by the woman who sees SL wearing a hat.

Still unsure what he wants to do, Mr Kipper wants to look for another property, but seeing as SL is now eager to get back to the office, she tells him it might be better to come to the office and speak with her manager. But at this point, she is feeling a little apprehensive, and so rather than getting back into his car, he convinces her to use HER car to drive back to the office with him, so that he can instead speak to the manager. He can then pick up his BMW later.

This time they get into her Fiesta and drive off, leaving his car in Stevenage Road, and are briefly seen driving up Fulham Palace Road by BW. The reason why SL doesn't turn right into Fulham Palace Road, is because he convinces her to drive the longer way around via other Sturgis properties located north of the office in Fulham Road.

However, at some point shortly after being seen by BW, she realises that he is leading her on a wild goose chase, and the mood in her car begins to change. She is then seen by the workman in his van; who she nearly drives into, arguing with Mr Kipper.

They turn right onto Fulham Road towards the office, but just as she approaches, he then tells her to forget it and demands she drives him back to his car in Stevenage Road.

It's at this point that she realises that Mr Kipper isn't really interested in houses at all and is wasting her time.

SL reluctantly drives him back to Stevenage Road, SOUTH of the road barrier where they park up and get out of the car.

They then begin arguing in the street.
They are then heard arguing in the street by the man who hails the cab.

Mr Kipper then pulls a weapon and threatens to kill her if she makes a noise and then forces her into his car. They are then seen speeding off by the man who comes out of the park.

He then drives her to a property that he knows is vacant.

He then forces her into an empty property close to Stevenage Road, where he subdues her and murders her. He then casually walks back to Stevenage Road and gets into SL's Fiesta (that was parked south of the barrier) and then drives back onto the main road, before turning back into Stevenage Road and parking BACK outside number 123 (located north of the road barrier)

He then walks back to the property; close to Stevenage Road, and then waits until he can remove her body and place it in the boot of his car.

He then drives and deposits her body into the River Thames, because it's within close proximity.


But how would he know that a property is vacant?

Well, a man who drives a BMW, wears a suit, and is possibly tanned and looking at properties in West London, speaks Estate Agent to me.

But perhaps at a managerial level, because the regular foot soldiers don't drive BMW's

And if it's a left hand drive, then it's likely a customised model, that would have cost additional funds to purchase.

So could Mr Kipper have been a manager at another estate agency firm?

A man who would of had access to a range of empty properties?


But WHY does the killer need to move the Fiesta if it's already parked in Stevenage Road?

Well, because it's parked too close to his house in Stevenage Road, somewhere south of the road barrier, and he needs to move it quickly, so he drops it back to where he knew it was parked earlier; outside 123 Stevenage Road.

But he parks slightly further forward than when the earlier witnesses saw it slightly covering the garage entrance.

So based on this hypothesis, the killer lives either on Stevenage Road, or within very close proximity, but had to drive SL to a vacant property close by to kill her.
He also can't kill her in his own house, and so needs TO BE SEEN getting her away from Stevenage Road.

That's why he STOPS the BMW just after he passes the man coming out of the park, because it looks like he's driving off somewhere away from Stevenage Road.

And of course, the last place you'd look for the killer would be in Stevenage Road.

He then has to sell, or scrap his BMW soon after the disappearance of SL.

And visit a barbers of course


I mean, it's pretty thin, but I like to hypothesise from time to time.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I agree, but what if Mr Kipper arranged to MEET outside 37SR, but it wasn't that house in particular that he was interested in?


So here's a little random working hypothesis...

All conjecture and supposition, but worth a punt I'd say...




So SL goes directly to Stevenage Road and parks up outside another Sturgis property, and then gets into Mr Kipper's car in Stevenage Road, and they then head to 37SR together.

But because the killer takes his thrill from the process and not just the kill, he bides his time and gets her to trust him.

He drops her off outside 37SR, and then goes to park up, and she is seen shortly after but the witness who sees her standing alone outside 37SR. He nips to the shop and gets a bottle of champagne and then goes to 37SR. They are then seen standing outside 37SR, but he then says he wants to look at more Sturgis properties because he's not overly keen on 37SR.

They then go for lunch in the Fulham Road, after he convinces her that he will buy a property if she goes on a lunch date with him over a celebratory glass of champagne. SL is eager to seal the deal and agrees.

They go for lunch and then he drops her back to Stevenage Road in his car, close to where her car is already parked outside 123 Stevenage Road; a Sturgis property.

She tells him she needs to get back to the office, but he convinces her to look for another property with him. She then grabs her hat from the car to look incognito because she's late back to the office.
They then walk along Stevenage Road, and look at another property in a neighbouring street; as witnessed by the woman who sees SL wearing a hat.

Still unsure what he wants to do, Mr Kipper wants to look for another property, but seeing as SL is now eager to get back to the office, she tells him it might be better to come to the office and speak with her manager. But at this point, she is feeling a little apprehensive, and so rather than getting back into his car, he convinces her to use HER car to drive back to the office with him, so that he can instead speak to the manager. He can then pick up his BMW later.

This time they get into her Fiesta and drive off, leaving his car in Stevenage Road, and are briefly seen driving up Fulham Palace Road by BW. The reason why SL doesn't turn right into Fulham Palace Road, is because he convinces her to drive the longer way around via other Sturgis properties located north of the office in Fulham Road.

However, at some point shortly after being seen by BW, she realises that he is leading her on a wild goose chase, and the mood in her car begins to change. She is then seen by the workman in his van; who she nearly drives into, arguing with Mr Kipper.

They turn right onto Fulham Road towards the office, but just as she approaches, he then tells her to forget it and demands she drives him back to his car in Stevenage Road.

It's at this point that she realises that Mr Kipper isn't really interested in houses at all and is wasting her time.

SL reluctantly drives him back to Stevenage Road, just south of the road barrier where they park up and get out of the car.

They then begin arguing in the street.
They are then heard arguing in the street by the man who hails the cab.

Mr Kipper then pulls a weapon and threatens to kill her if she makes a noise and then forces her into his car. They are then seen speeding off by the man who comes out of the park.

He drives her to a property that he knows is vacant.

He then forces her into an empty property close to Stevenage Road, where he subdues her and murders her. He then casually walks back to Stevenage Road and gets into SL's Fiesta (that was parked south of the barrier) and then drives back onto the main road, before turning back into Stevenage Road and parking BACK outside number 123 (located north of the road barrier)

He then walks back to the property; close to Stevenage Road, and then waits until he can remove her body and place it in the boot of his car.

He then drives and deposits her body into the River Thames, because it's within close proximity.


But how would he know that a property is vacant?

Well, a man who drives a BMW, wears a suit, and is possibly tanned and looking at properties in West London, speaks Estate Agent to me.

But perhaps at a managerial level, because the regular foot soldiers don't drive BMW's

And if it's a left hand drive, then it's likely a customised model, that would have cost additional funds to purchase.

So could Mr Kipper have been a manager at another estate agency firm?

A man who would of had access to a range of empty properties?


I mean, it's pretty thin, but I like to hypothesise from time to time.

Interesting thoughts.

On a BMW - basic, secondhand, but roadworthy, was told by an ex dealer between £350-1,400 in 86. LHD cheaper. Will have a look to see how much poss models (below) cost at time.

There was a car dealer that sold LHD BMWs etc in vicinity.

How much was a 1968-74 possible LHD & separately, RHD, BMW 2.5 or 2.8 litre engine, to buy in 1986? As seen outside Shorrolds. BMW 518 with four doors?

LHD models were generally at the cheaper end of price range above. Could JC have dabbled in the odd bit of car buying & selling? It’s possible. His thing. We have evidence SL was in touch with a contact about buying a car around time of disappearance. JC effectively bought the Sierra too.

He also hired cars - to see SM in West Country, to take DT to Birmingham etc.

If JC had access to his father’s legacy he could have afforded a basic BMW or secondhand quality car. Maybe even without it - the odds are reasonable to good he had a hand in SuperHire break-ins in June-July 86. His spending apparently increased from May.

Later thought to be a 2500 as below by police.

 

[lee sumner]

@WestLondoner she left £78,666 pre tax & death duties.

i read SL flat on disrael rd was recently valued at 1 million. the sale details were still online after it was sold. there was also photographs of each room, layout etc. the shots are in my files.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

On hiring a car, almost certainly JC could have afforded to do this re: any deposition of body etc.

He hired a red fiesta to take GP home.

A man looking like ‘Kipper’ seen in Pease Pottage filling station. About 20 mins from where SL had been on Sat at 21st.

Note he was seen in a RED fiesta or maestro - a red Sierra not too different perhaps (!) The data on red Sierra not reported yet.

On JC, what’s often overlooked is I believe he had no solid alibi for 5 days. That’s a big chunk of unaccounted for time.

 

[lee sumner]

Definitely bu115hit.

The ONS says that in 1986, the average weekly male manual wage was £174.40. The average non-manual wage was £244.90.

The £300 a week claim is not credible.

agree. classic JC BS. car salesman talk.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

if i was interviewing the players in the case like, putney set, AL, NB, ETC, i would be asking key questions about SL and her life, but nobody seems to do this. all we ever hear is JC did it. we need to go back to basics. occams principle way of thinking.

NB seems to contradict himself, poss as so long ago. Close friends were protecting her good reputation. I’d be zoning in on contact book & re-interviewing, with these people & others & all relatively recently computerised index card data in mind.

 

[lee sumner]

i think SL was going to move back in with her sister tamsin. they lived together on walham grove fulham years earlier. i cant see her moving back in with her parents. this is what i have always wanted to know. it does seem like she wanted to sell the flat ASAP, the question is why.

as an EA herself SL would know it makes more business sense to keep her flat instead of selling. maybe she liked it, but was flipping it for profit.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

as an EA herself SL would know it makes more business sense to keep her flat instead of selling. maybe she liked it, but was flipping it for profit.

What might be interesting as apparent urgency to sell. The failed 3 attempts & her reported angst around that. Might her plans to change job imminently have factored in (?)

As well as this ‘deal’…

As you say, looks to have been a decent investment.

 

[rvlvr]

I think most people could tell the difference between a Sierra and a Fiesta (never mind that in any case the car was apparently described as a Maestro or Metro), I wouldn’t place an ounce of value on that sighting tbh.

I think the issue with the theory that Suzy and Kipper went to look at other houses that day is how, when at most Suzy only had keys to 37SR? No one is going to buy a house off the back of having viewed it only from the street and an experienced EA would know this.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

I think most people could tell the difference between a Sierra and a Fiesta (never mind that in any case the car was apparently described as a Maestro or Metro), I wouldn’t place an ounce of value on that sighting tbh.

I think the issue with the theory that Suzy and Kipper went to look at other houses that day is how, when at most Suzy only had keys to 37SR? No one is going to buy a house off the back of having viewed it only from the street and an experienced EA would know this.

I don’t know on red car if not paying too much attention…It came up quite early on but like so many sightings we can’t rely on it. Which ‘Kipper’ efit was she looking at (?) etc. In latter years CCTV in play…

This one police took ‘very seriously’ for some reason. Others they more readily dismissed.

 

[lee sumner]

There shouldn’t be any confusion but you could well be right.

Yes - exactly, on earlier Bristol or West Country affair. Mentioned to client at Face Place (beauticians) in 1984 approx.

He was ‘living’ in Bristol in prison & via association with AR an aspirational place to hopefully settle & have a business & a new start.

There definitely was a ‘Bristol’ man in May 86 - according to DL - who became scary.

DL was questioned by DI johnstone the night SL disappeared. johnstone asked DL and PL if there were any men in SL life she felt were threatening towards her. DL and PL said no there was no men like that. they said SL was happy in her relationship with AL. years later they start talking about this scary mystery man. if such a man did exist they would have told DI johnstone about him that first night she vanished.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

DL was questioned by DI johnstone the night SL disappeared. johnstone asked DL and PL if there were any men in SL life she felt were threatening towards her. DL and PL said no there was no men like that. they said SL was happy in her relationship with AL. years later they start talking about this scary mystery man. if such a man did exist they would have told DI johnstone about him that first night she vanished.

Hence the police were livid when they didn’t at least on contract/joint purchase & evident fear or unease she had with the man connected to it.

It’s not the threatening so much perhaps on joint purchase as the shady & problematic generating unease. DL said her feeling was SL’s backing out of something shadier than thought reason for abduction & murder. As they discussed at last meet IMO they made her really think & reconsider.

The uncle can be heard talking about this or similar on the record too. She was angry & leant on. That doesn’t sound good. Scary dates DL flagged etc. Maybe as she reflected.

DL & PL said they assumed the police already knew on above on joint purchase. The police focused on Sturgis deals & immediate relationships first & were considerably angered an early line of enquiry lost (!)

Her relationship with AL not as straightforward as explained in press. As AS said one problem was the Ls wouldn’t accept there were other boyfriends they knew nothing about.

SL’s reputation was everything to her family. Understandably.

It’s really hard to argue against probable fact there was someone unaccounted for that was commercially troublesome at least in her life. There are a few independent sources on this that confirm it. Perhaps that had nothing to do with her disappearance but no one came forward. I’d say the odds are fair to good of a connection, prob much better, as you say Occam’s Razor.

 

[lee sumner]

NB seems to contradict himself, poss as so long ago. Close friends were protecting her good reputation. I’d be zoning in on contact book & re-interviewing, with these people & others & all relatively recently computerised index card data in mind.

people add things on to there statements years later. is it to make themselves feel more important to the case.

 

[lee sumner]

Her flatmate - pre NB -said another group of people would ring up - not ‘Putney set’ friends but another circle (?)

It was assumed any deal was with a past or present Sturgis client & any contact link from ‘secret’ book not investigated as thoroughly.

I guess no one on Sturgis database could bat away they had never had interest in buying or selling a flat or house when probed. Easy for a personal ‘contact’.

previous flatmate. rebecca peters i think she was called. i heard SL kicked her out of the flat because she was not paying rent on time.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

people add things on to there statements years later. is it to make themselves feel more important to the case.

Very true, they do, absolutely, but evidence points to joint deal comments being very real & not a year later or anything like that. We know she - SL - went elsewhere on Sunday night too now & lied about it to AL (Barley latest podcast),

Her family hoped all this could be solved without a deep dive into her personal life & preservation of her reputation everything.

 

[lee sumner]

Hence the police were livid when they didn’t at least on contract/joint purchase & evident fear or unease she had with the man connected to it.

It’s not the threatening so much perhaps on joint purchase as the shady & problematic generating unease. DL said her feeling was SL’s backing out of something shadier than thought reason for abduction & murder. As they discussed at last meet IMO they made her really think & reconsider.

The uncle can be heard talking about this or similar on the record too. She was angry & leant on. That doesn’t sound good. Scary dates DL flagged etc. Maybe as she reflected.

DL & PL said they assumed the police already knew on above on joint purchase. The police focused on Sturgis deals & immediate relationships first & were considerably angered an early line of enquiry lost (!)

Her relationship with AL not as straightforward as explained in press. As AS said one problem was the Ls wouldn’t accept there were other boyfriends they knew nothing about.

SL’s reputation was everything to her family. Understandably.

It’s really hard to argue against probable fact there was someone unaccounted for that was commercially troublesome at least in her life. There are a few independent sources on this that confirm it. Perhaps that had nothing to do with her disappearance but no one came forward. I’d say the odds are fair to good of a connection, prob much better, as you say Occam’s Razor.

the scary man was supposed to have taken SL on a date, or to a car race, or something like that. so this story appears to be not connected to the mystery deal she had going.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

previous flatmate. rebecca peters i think she was called. i heard SL kicked her out of the flat because she was not paying rent on time.

Yes…Be interesting to know more - poss bad blood you think? She - RP - not trashing SL in interview I felt, more saying check out the others who called & this was vital.