UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986 #8

[lee sumner]

Was this the witness who was vague about the time of the sighting?

Am I right in thinking that only one witness at SR saw the beribboned bottle?

yes, doyle.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

the scary man was supposed to have taken SL on a date, or to a car race, or something like that. so this story appears to be not connected to the mystery deal she had going.

No proof, yes. A link poss (?) We know someone asking her to do a deals with ‘strings’ that favoured them. Not great.

The Uncle, doesn’t unfortunately elaborate outside a doc (?) Be good to have more context here!

 

[lee sumner]

Hence the police were livid when they didn’t at least on contract/joint purchase & evident fear or unease she had with the man connected to it.

It’s not the threatening so much perhaps on joint purchase as the shady & problematic generating unease. DL said her feeling was SL’s backing out of something shadier than thought reason for abduction & murder. As they discussed at last meet IMO they made her really think & reconsider.

The uncle can be heard talking about this or similar on the record too. She was angry & leant on. That doesn’t sound good. Scary dates DL flagged etc. Maybe as she reflected.

DL & PL said they assumed the police already knew on above on joint purchase. The police focused on Sturgis deals & immediate relationships first & were considerably angered an early line of enquiry lost (!)

Her relationship with AL not as straightforward as explained in press. As AS said one problem was the Ls wouldn’t accept there were other boyfriends they knew nothing about.

SL’s reputation was everything to her family. Understandably.

It’s really hard to argue against probable fact there was someone unaccounted for that was commercially troublesome at least in her life. There are a few independent sources on this that confirm it. Perhaps that had nothing to do with her disappearance but no one came forward. I’d say the odds are fair to good of a connection, prob much better, as you say Occam’s Razor.

it appears there was a few mystery men in her life, but how many were secret lovers.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

it appears there was a few mystery men in her life, but how many were secret lovers.

That’s a good question. Did the personal & professional meet in a deadly way re: ‘Mr Kipper’? There were ‘serious allegations’ about her private life kept out of book. Did they have any relevance to any of this?

 

[Konstantin]

That’s a good question. Did the personal & professional meet in a deadly way re: ‘Mr Kipper’? There were ‘serious allegations’ about her private life kept out of book. Did they have any relevance to any of this?

"Serious allegations" sounds a bit more than "had a few boyfriends on the go" to be honest.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

"Serious allegations" sounds a bit more than "had a few boyfriends on the go" to be honest.

Doesn’t it. Unfortunately.

 

[kes1972]

if i was interviewing the players in the case like, putney set, AL, NB, ETC, i would be asking key questions about SL and her life, but nobody seems to do this. all we ever hear is JC did it. we need to go back to basics. occams principle way of thinking.

Personally i think where her car or the car she used at that moment is the most important piece of information, what road was it on and the exact position and who parked it there

 

[WestLondoner]

Doesn’t it. Unfortunately.

It would cover, for example, her being involved with lowlife - ex-cons, that sort of thing. If it were decided that they had not been involved in her disappearance, then DL / PL might have decided they wanted this kept out of the public domain because it was discreditable and irrelevant. Or thought to be.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It would cover, for example, her being involved with lowlife - ex-cons, that sort of thing. If it were decided that they had not been involved in her disappearance, then DL / PL might have decided they wanted this kept out of the public domain because it was discreditable and irrelevant. Or thought to be.

It feels unlikely at that crude & base a level IMO.

The ‘contact’ book may tie in here or be a clue. Wealthy AN was in it & his life speaks for itself.

Possibly she was involved with an upmarket introduction agency or hostess work, not always seedy in 80s. It might have led to this ‘strings attached’ deal with someone with no link past or present to Sturgis which would explain the police not finding any link here despite best efforts.

 

[kes1972]

Personally i think where her car or the car she used at that moment is the most important piece of information, what road was it on and the exact position and who parked it there

You know the old saying “the last person to see them” ?

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

It would cover, for example, her being involved with lowlife - ex-cons, that sort of thing. If it were decided that they had not been involved in her disappearance, then DL / PL might have decided they wanted this kept out of the public domain because it was discreditable and irrelevant. Or thought to be.

My courtesan life of sex and champers

I am walking into Morton’s, a private members’ club in Berkeley Square, on the arm of a bad-tempered architect who has just picked me up in a bar off Beauchamp Place. Reflected in the tinted

www.thetimes.com

From article:

“Although my appearance did not alter substantially I led a double life. I had a few close friends, I did not confide in them about my activities…But London is a village and sometimes my two worlds would overlap. I once found myself looking up from the table in a Pall Mall Club where I was dining with a bona fide date to meet the eyes of one of my gentleman who was with another woman. As his gaze met mine we acknowledged each other with a raised eyebrow”.

On agency. “It sounded like a temping agency run by a brisk middle aged woman”.

This reminded me of the frankly odd seeming situation where SL is with wealthy expat in the 151 club but also a random man too, who buys her, not them, champagne (?) The police trace this other man, a stockbroker, by credit card slips. Maybe nothing linked to above type situation.

 

[Konstantin]

It feels unlikely at that crude & base a level IMO.

The ‘contact’ book may tie in here or be a clue. Wealthy AN was in it & his life speaks for itself.

Possibly she was involved with an upmarket introduction agency or hostess work, not always seedy in 80s. It might have led to this ‘strings attached’ deal with someone with no link past or present to Sturgis which would explain the police not finding any link here despite best efforts.

This is what I think, based on some of the things that AS did get into his book. Lucie Blackman type work, but perhaps not so overt, perhaps connected to PSS. Being a posh, good looking, fun companion for, say, an Arab sheikh. How did she get into the Saudi expo early? People with money and connections, perhaps not residents in the UK so harder to trace especially if names not spelled out in book or she used codes or pseudonyms. Like Kipper. Perhaps. JMO etc of course.

 

[Klclevi]

An "M" stands for "Motorway," which is similar to the interstate road network in the States.

An "A" road is the next step down. Prior to motorways being constructed, the "A" road was the main road network to navigate the UK. "A" roads often pass through or around towns and cities.

A "B" road is next. These are minor roads found in most towns and villages, and more rural settings that are almost always single lane roads (one lane in each direction)

There are also other smaller roads than a "B" road, that are termed as unclassified (doesn't meet the "B" road criteria) and which are essentially single lane (only room for one direction of travel) roads, dirt tracks, and rural tracks for horses etc...

The M4 was built to improve the west to east A4 route, the M1 was built to improve the north to south A1 route, etc etc...

You also have "The ridgeway" road that runs between Buckinghamshire to Wiltshire and is around 5000 years old.

Thankyou for this greatly appreciated -its really helpful when looking a at GMps

So MB in the 2nd podcast said (at 19.53) that he thinks JC drove UP the M5 and disposed of her at NBrks.

If this was JC that seems like a very long winded way to get to Sutton Coldfield to me? If he had been leaving Hammersmith area in a hurry with SL deceased in the car, why would you not go up the M1 and find somewhere along there?

Why would you go all the way out the M4 and then up the M5 and then onto SC?
(GM says 3 hrs 42 mins v 2 hr 17min via the M1) (thats googling that at 2.50pm Friday Aus time so 3.50am UK time Friday morning)

We know he was def at his mothers on Wednesday 30.7.86. If JC had killed SL Monday afternoon, could he reasonably have gone the M1 with her body in the boot to his mothers, been there for tea that night, and disposed of SJL on the Tuesday by driving down the M5 from SC ? (about an hour)

Why he would choose NB as to some other site I do not know. I can only assume this tip off they received via the phone call to DL in early Nov 99 was significant enough to to warrant the searches.

And of course - what car is this and where is it today. Is it the Sierra? Surely the dismantling of it in 2000 would have unearthed something more substantial than what it did if she had been deceased in it.

 

[Rookie D]

Thankyou for this greatly appreciated -its really helpful when looking a at GMps

So MB in the 2nd podcast said (at 19.53) that he thinks JC drove UP the M5 and disposed of her at NBrks.

If this was JC that seems like a very long winded way to get to Sutton Coldfield to me? If he had been leaving Hammersmith area in a hurry with SL deceased in the car, why would you not go up the M1 and find somewhere along there?

Why would you go all the way out the M4 and then up the M5 and then onto SC?
(GM says 3 hrs 42 mins v 2 hr 17min via the M1) (thats googling that at 2.50pm Friday Aus time so 3.50am UK time Friday morning)

We know he was def at his mothers on Wednesday 30.7.86. If JC had killed SL Monday afternoon, could he reasonably have gone the M1 with her body in the boot to his mothers, been there for tea that night, and disposed of SJL on the Tuesday by driving down the M5 from SC ? (about an hour)

Why he would choose NB as to some other site I do not know. I can only assume this tip off they received via the phone call to DL in early Nov 99 was significant enough to to warrant the searches.

And of course - what car is this and where is it today. Is it the Sierra? Surely the dismantling of it in 2000 would have unearthed something more substantial than what it did if she had been deceased in it.

The journey via the M1 would have taken even longer because the M6 Toll Road that acts as an Eastern bypass around Birmingham wasn't even built then, and so JC would have needed to have driven closer to Birmingham, which would have increased that journey time even further.

The M25, M40 and then M42 is another option, but again, it would have involved driving nearer to Birmingham.

Sutton Coldfield prior to the M6 Toll road was more difficult to get to from the south, than it is today.


The argument for JC having used the M4 and then the M5 etc... is that JC would have driven close to Bristol; and perhaps an area he was more familiar with, and it would have also meant driving through Gloucestershire, where SL was of course born.

In a macabre way, if JC was the killer, then he may have taken her home, by disposing of her body somewhere in Gloucestershire.

He could then continue his journey up the M5 until he reached Birmingham and then used the M42 to circumnavigate the city to reach Sutton Coldfield.

I think the idea that SL may have been buried somewhere close to the M5 in Gloucestershire is a viable option.

This perhaps mirrors the latter deposition of the murder victim; Melanie Hall, who was dumped off of a slip road beside the M5 motorway in 1996, after having been abducted from Bath city centre.

It would seem likely that if JC was the killer, that SL would have been alive when she left London.

The way he treated SB would suggest that he JC was a killer who thrived on the process and the build up to a kill.

It would reasonable to say that SB and SL may have treated in a very similar way before they were killed.

 

[kes1972]

It feels unlikely at that crude & base a level IMO.

The ‘contact’ book may tie in here or be a clue. Wealthy AN was in it & his life speaks for itself.

Possibly she was involved with an upmarket introduction agency or hostess work, not always seedy in 80s. It might have led to this ‘strings attached’ deal with someone with no link past or present to Sturgis which would explain the police not finding any link here despite best efforts.

An?

 

[kes1972]

The journey via the M1 would have taken even longer because the M6 Toll Road that acts as an Eastern bypass around Birmingham wasn't even built then, and so JC would have needed to have driven closer to Birmingham, which would have increased that journey time even further.

The M25, M40 and then M42 is another option, but again, it would have involved driving nearer to Birmingham.

Sutton Coldfield prior to the M6 Toll road was more difficult to get to from the south, than it is today.


The argument for JC having used the M4 and then the M5 etc... is that JC would have driven close to Bristol; and perhaps an area he was more familiar with, and it would have also meant driving through Gloucestershire, where SL was of course born.

In a macabre way, if JC was the killer, then he may have taken her home, by disposing of her body somewhere in Gloucestershire.

He could then continue his journey up the M5 until he reached Birmingham and then used the M42 to circumnavigate the city to reach Sutton Coldfield.

I think the idea that SL may have been buried somewhere close to the M5 in Gloucestershire is a viable option.

This perhaps mirrors the latter deposition of the murder victim; Melanie Hall, who was dumped off of a slip road beside the M5 motorway in 1996, after having been abducted from Bath city centre.

It would seem likely that if JC was the killer, that SL would have been alive when she left London.

The way he treated SB would suggest that he JC was a killer who thrived on the process and the build up to a kill.

It would reasonable to say that SB and SL may have treated in a very similar way before they were killed.

So deep on jc his routes his life when the bf has the motive after reading a few messages on here his odd behaviour would know her movements her life her routine.

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Thankyou for this greatly appreciated -its really helpful when looking a at GMps

So MB in the 2nd podcast said (at 19.53) that he thinks JC drove UP the M5 and disposed of her at NBrks.

If this was JC that seems like a very long winded way to get to Sutton Coldfield to me? If he had been leaving Hammersmith area in a hurry with SL deceased in the car, why would you not go up the M1 and find somewhere along there?

Why would you go all the way out the M4 and then up the M5 and then onto SC?
(GM says 3 hrs 42 mins v 2 hr 17min via the M1) (thats googling that at 2.50pm Friday Aus time so 3.50am UK time Friday morning)

We know he was def at his mothers on Wednesday 30.7.86. If JC had killed SL Monday afternoon, could he reasonably have gone the M1 with her body in the boot to his mothers, been there for tea that night, and disposed of SJL on the Tuesday by driving down the M5 from SC ? (about an hour)

Why he would choose NB as to some other site I do not know. I can only assume this tip off they received via the phone call to DL in early Nov 99 was significant enough to to warrant the searches.

And of course - what car is this and where is it today. Is it the Sierra? Surely the dismantling of it in 2000 would have unearthed something more substantial than what it did if she had been deceased in it.

You’d think on the sierra they’d be more evidence. Yes. He could have hired a car post hostel to use & then dropped back & arrived home by train (?)

I wonder how much evidence there was really re: links to BMW hire place where the police were taping seats re: forensics..

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

Thankyou for this greatly appreciated -its really helpful when looking a at GMps

So MB in the 2nd podcast said (at 19.53) that he thinks JC drove UP the M5 and disposed of her at NBrks.

If this was JC that seems like a very long winded way to get to Sutton Coldfield to me? If he had been leaving Hammersmith area in a hurry with SL deceased in the car, why would you not go up the M1 and find somewhere along there?

Why would you go all the way out the M4 and then up the M5 and then onto SC?
(GM says 3 hrs 42 mins v 2 hr 17min via the M1) (thats googling that at 2.50pm Friday Aus time so 3.50am UK time Friday morning)

We know he was def at his mothers on Wednesday 30.7.86. If JC had killed SL Monday afternoon, could he reasonably have gone the M1 with her body in the boot to his mothers, been there for tea that night, and disposed of SJL on the Tuesday by driving down the M5 from SC ? (about an hour)

Why he would choose NB as to some other site I do not know. I can only assume this tip off they received via the phone call to DL in early Nov 99 was significant enough to to warrant the searches.

And of course - what car is this and where is it today. Is it the Sierra? Surely the dismantling of it in 2000 would have unearthed something more substantial than what it did if she had been deceased

An?

Linked upthread.

 

[Klclevi]

The journey via the M1 would have taken even longer because the M6 Toll Road that acts as an Eastern bypass around Birmingham wasn't even built then, and so JC would have needed to have driven closer to Birmingham, which would have increased that journey time even further.

The M25, M40 and then M42 is another option, but again, it would have involved driving nearer to Birmingham.

Sutton Coldfield prior to the M6 Toll road was more difficult to get to from the south, than it is today.


The argument for JC having used the M4 and then the M5 etc... is that JC would have driven close to Bristol; and perhaps an area he was more familiar with, and it would have also meant driving through Gloucestershire, where SL was of course born.

In a macabre way, if JC was the killer, then he may have taken her home, by disposing of her body somewhere in Gloucestershire.

He could then continue his journey up the M5 until he reached Birmingham and then used the M42 to circumnavigate the city to reach Sutton Coldfield.

I think the idea that SL may have been buried somewhere close to the M5 in Gloucestershire is a viable option.

This perhaps mirrors the latter deposition of the murder victim; Melanie Hall, who was dumped off of a slip road beside the M5 motorway in 1996, after having been abducted from Bath city centre.

It would seem likely that if JC was the killer, that SL would have been alive when she left London.

The way he treated SB would suggest that he JC was a killer who thrived on the process and the build up to a kill.

It would reasonable to say that SB and SL may have treated in a very similar way before they were killed.

This IMO absolutely seems reasonable- thankyou for this analysis. I am not from the UK so its so hard to reconcile

No one really knows if he actually was at his mothers for tea on Monday 28.7.86 . Tea in Aus means your dinner (like 6-9pm ish timing. In the depths of winter the sun is down here at about 5pm so you are cosied up when you get home with the casseroles and slow cookers etc.) . Totally diff vibe to the summer. (and being in the northern hemisphere your daylight hours in the summer are about 1-2 hours more than us here in Aus) so reciprocal in the winter. Our max days of daylight are about 9 hours but yours from what i have analysed are on average about 7.

Stories aside about daylight hours he would have left London at the very latest at what - 5PM ( and I am calling that a stretch based on the BW sighting)? Would he really have put her at NB and then been at his mothers for tea though? This I struggle with but there is no evidence to say he was back at his mothers by tea time 28.7.86 (this being a rough 6-9pm timeslot).

Also for the experts on here - how did the searches come about of JCs mothers house (Shipton Road I think) . I have tried to find info on this but cannot atm.

Sunrise and sunset times in Sutton Coldfield, July 1986

 

[Lady Stoddart-West]

This IMO absolutely seems reasonable- thankyou for this analysis.

No one really knows if he actually was at his mothers for tea on Monday 28.7.86 . Tea in Aus means your dinner (like 6-9pm ish timing. In the depths of winter the sun is down here at about 5pm so you are cosied up when you get home with the casseroles and slow cookers etc.) . Totally diff vibe to the summer. (and being in the northern hemisphere your daylight hours in the summer are about 1-2 hours more than us here in Aus) so reciprocal in the winter. Our max days of daylight are about 9 hours but yours from what i have analysed are on average about 7.

Stories aside about daylight hours he would have left London at the very latest at what - 5PM ( and I am calling that a stretch based on the BW sighting)? Would he really have put her at NB and then been at his mothers for tea though? This I struggle with but there is no evidence to say he was back at his mothers by tea time 28.7.86.

Sunrise and sunset times in Sutton Coldfield, July 1986

I read he wasn’t officially alibied - with any sighting etc that held water - until 31st Aug in afternoon. That’s a lot of unaccounted for time if so. Reports seem to differ. It would be good if Barley etc could confirm on any follow up podcast etc.