The situation screams clive barwell type of scenario, i play the women in the car situation with them laughing or screaming and think how did he control that situation , any proof of where barwell was at that time?
UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986 #8
- Thread starter Pinkizzy
- Start date
Barwell used a knife or gun to control his victims. In 1987 he had work links to Slough, around twenty miles from Fulham.
Like Cannan, Barwell used aliases. He sometimes went by Clive Teesdale or Clive Wakefield.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2020
- Messages
- 116
- Reaction score
- 236
Unless you can provide some evidential connection between the parties then no credible line of enquiry exists. You are simply flying a kite and adding to the general obfuscation surrounding this case.
You are of course absolutely right.
But thinking like the police and remaining within those constraints of staying strictly within lines of inquiry, hasn't helped progress the case beyond where it started; hence why it's never been solved.
The case really needs to be looked at from alternate angles, that perhaps haven't been considered before.
But in terms of official lines, I can't disagree with you.
If SL was seen in Shorrolds Road circa 12.50pm, and then again at 1pm, but her car that she had driven to work was found in Stevenage Road, and was seen parked there at 12.45pm by the woman who lived at 123 Stevenage Road, (a property under the books of SL's manager at Sturgis; MG) then how did she get to Shorrolds Road?
WJ may of course have been mistaken by her 12.45pm sighting, but because we also had a Taxi cab driver who also saw the car just before 2pm, then we have multiple witnesses to the car in Stevenage Road, and sandwiched in between we have the multiple sightings of SL in Shorrolds Road.
So, how is that possible?
Well, unless SL drove to Stevenage Road first, and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road in another vehicle, then it is impossible for SL to have been in 2 places at the same time.
So we either have someone else from Sturgis driving the car to Stevenage Road BEFORE SL leave the office, and then SL has to go directly to Shorrolds Road in a different car, or by walking there; ergo, she never went to Stevenage Road beforehand, or she drove to Stevenage Road and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road afterwards.
But why do that?
Well considering that the viewing of 37SR only took around 10 minutes, then that seems an awfully short viewing for any serious buyer.
And so by parking the car in Stevenage Road first, was the viewing at Shorrolds Road simply a means to disguise the idea that Mr Kipper and SL were looking at other properties nearer to Stevenage Road?
Critically, the front door was heard closing by the witness living next door to 37SR, which would imply that both SL and Mr Kipper had at least been inside the property for a short period of time; perhaps even just a few minutes.
It's interesting to note that SL wasn't heard going IN to 37SR by the neighbour, which suggest that he was only in proximity to his bay window just moments before SL and Mr Kipper had left the property.
But why did Mr Kipper not attack SL in 37SR?
Instead, he opts to wait
Why?
From 12.30pm that day, SL is alleged to have been seen driving in her car with Mr Kipper on 2 separate occasions (once whilst having an argument with her male passenger) she's also heard and seen arguing in Stevenage Road, seen walking along Stevenage Road with Mr Kipper, and seen standing in a garden by the same witness, she's also seen outside 37SR by 3 witnesses, 2 of which with Mr Kipper, and she's also seen screaming or laughing in a BMW that then speeds off.
So what is going on here?
If we consider that ALL the sightings were correct and genuine, then we have to work out the chronology of events in order to build an accurate picture of what really happened.
So, putting motive aside, the primary focus should be on logistics and chronology of events.
Unless we can out work out HOW and WHEN things happened on the day, then the WHY counts for very little indeed.
WJ may of course have been mistaken by her 12.45pm sighting, but because we also had a Taxi cab driver who also saw the car just before 2pm, then we have multiple witnesses to the car in Stevenage Road, and sandwiched in between we have the multiple sightings of SL in Shorrolds Road.
So, how is that possible?
Well, unless SL drove to Stevenage Road first, and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road in another vehicle, then it is impossible for SL to have been in 2 places at the same time.
So we either have someone else from Sturgis driving the car to Stevenage Road BEFORE SL leave the office, and then SL has to go directly to Shorrolds Road in a different car, or by walking there; ergo, she never went to Stevenage Road beforehand, or she drove to Stevenage Road and then got a lift to Shorrolds Road afterwards.
But why do that?
Well considering that the viewing of 37SR only took around 10 minutes, then that seems an awfully short viewing for any serious buyer.
And so by parking the car in Stevenage Road first, was the viewing at Shorrolds Road simply a means to disguise the idea that Mr Kipper and SL were looking at other properties nearer to Stevenage Road?
Critically, the front door was heard closing by the witness living next door to 37SR, which would imply that both SL and Mr Kipper had at least been inside the property for a short period of time; perhaps even just a few minutes.
It's interesting to note that SL wasn't heard going IN to 37SR by the neighbour, which suggest that he was only in proximity to his bay window just moments before SL and Mr Kipper had left the property.
But why did Mr Kipper not attack SL in 37SR?
Instead, he opts to wait
Why?
From 12.30pm that day, SL is alleged to have been seen driving in her car with Mr Kipper on 2 separate occasions (once whilst having an argument with her male passenger) she's also heard and seen arguing in Stevenage Road, seen walking along Stevenage Road with Mr Kipper, and seen standing in a garden by the same witness, she's also seen outside 37SR by 3 witnesses, 2 of which with Mr Kipper, and she's also seen screaming or laughing in a BMW that then speeds off.
So what is going on here?
If we consider that ALL the sightings were correct and genuine, then we have to work out the chronology of events in order to build an accurate picture of what really happened.
So, putting motive aside, the primary focus should be on logistics and chronology of events.
Unless we can out work out HOW and WHEN things happened on the day, then the WHY counts for very little indeed.
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2021
- Messages
- 1,208
- Reaction score
- 1,872
i believe the plan was to ditch the car on stevenage rd across the road from the large yellow sturgis for sale sign. that cant be a coincidence. that location was chosen in advance.
Clairybums
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2026
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 188
Hi All, I am new here so please accept my apologies if I am posting in the wrong place. I am hoping to add some personal knowledge after receiving an email from a Jill Doyle who runs a book blog. I had previously posted on a book review about SL, whereby I had briefly told of my father's own experience at the time of her disappearance. Please excuse what may be a long-winded explanation but I feel I must as my father (Ernest McConville) went to his grave (2nd July 1998) haunted by the fact that the police had disregarded a report he made at the time. He actually went to Fulham police station in person as he had no house phone at that time. Below is as much and as accurate as I am able to remember.
My father's address was 10A Dorncilffe Road, Fulham, SW6 5LF. It was the top flat in a maisonette, with 10B the middle flat and 10C the basement flat. Access to the basement flat (at ground level) was round to the left of the building in a little side alley way which also lead to the gardens. We had moved to Dorncliffe Road in 1979 when I was 13. By age 19 I was living in Battersea with my then partner. I remember visiting my father and him going on about this missing woman and that he had witnessed her and a man pull up outside his house and that the man, with dark hair and suited, had got out and gone to the basement flat. The woman who was blonde had remained in the car. I cannot remember how long he said it was before the man returned to the car and the car drove off, I also don't recall whether he mentioned who was driving but even down to the straw hat on the back shelf, he was sure that this was the woman who was now missing. He reported what he saw, descriptions etc to the police station but never heard anything back from them. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying that he went back to the police station to reiterate what he had seen as he expected the police to make contact with him to follow up. He was 100 percent positive about the information he had given them. My brother later told me that when SL car was found it appeared on the news and my father had jumped out of his chair and shouted "THAT'S THE CAR!" He probably swore too being Irish and angry at the same time. I guess at the time I was young and wrapped up in my own life and struggles so didn't really dwell on news and such (I really wish I had been older, wiser and more pushy back then). I know my father had done what any good person would do and tried to help and assumed that the police would investigate. Little did he know that the police had completely disregarded his witness statement because, as far as they were concerned, SL had dark or brown hair (not realising that she had recently had it highlighted). Over the years, until his death, he would mention the SL case and become quite angry about it and the fact they didn't seem to act on his information. In hindsight and knowing my father, he would definitely have been able to identify who it was or wasn't. When I found out that they had reopened the investigation due to the mistakes made in the original one, I contacted the number given to let them know about my father's report and was visited by a plain clothes officer (not sure off hand what rank). He had with him a copy of my father's statement and he let me and my brother look at it (this is going back about 20+ years now). He did say that he believed my father had seen SL. How might that change the route taken to Stevenage Road? I never thought to mention or ask that question at the time.
Circling back to the basement flat (10C Dorncliffe Road)... at the time, there was a man living there who dealt hard drugs (heroin etc). I don't remember his name but my brother may know as he spent more time at our father's than I did. This man was quite dodgy and we were made aware by my father that we should steer clear. There was always people coming and going and drama around the basement flat. My brother was also able to tell the policeman that this 'neighbour' had spent time in Wormwood Scubbs. Maybe there's a crossover with JC? Who knows. Also, maybe it's possible that JC asked SL to stop off at 10 Dorncliffe for whatever reason and picked up something with which to subdue SL (that's me speculating). Around the same time, I wrote to SL parents telling them what I'm telling you all. My brother drove to their home to post it and actually met the mum and had a conversation with her. It just didn't seem right to keep quiet. We were early 20s now approaching and in our early 60s. I don't have the energy, resources or know how to dig around but hopefully others can. I'm also no longer as adept on computers or social media as I once was so, again, apologies in advance for my big long ramble. My father had no hidden agenda and neither do I. We are quite private people in general. Only looking for truth and closure so SL can truly be at peace.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2021
- Messages
- 1,732
- Reaction score
- 5,355
Hi Claire and welcome to the board.
This is a really interesting post as it provides an example of material submitted to the investigation that was never taken further at the time or later.
This is a really interesting post as it provides an example of material submitted to the investigation that was never taken further at the time or later.
For my own information I checked where this is. It's a turning off the Fulham Road, the one in which Sturgis was located, and it's just off the Fulham Palace Road. So it's en route between Sturgis and 123SR, noting that there's more than one route.
Did he ever mention the time of day when he saw this, or his vantage point - e.g. was he inside the flat?
That's an interesting detail - so the car he saw was a white Fiesta?
This could be because they had already decided the hot spot was Shorrolds Road and wanted to hear more about that.
SJL's car was found at 10pm but the story didn't hit the press until the following day or the day after that. So presumably he saw the news footage first and then recalled the visitor afterwards?
To be fair to the police, this was not their doing. They initially circulated an accurate description of SJL and the family then muddied the waters by staging their own press conference at which they distributed out-of-date studio headshots of her as a brunette. These are the ones that have remained famous. Another showed her with rather ineptly yellowed hair and the last ever taken of her, at a party, shows her with subtle highlights and by the look of it a good stone and a half lighter than the previous one. Hence one of the frustrations is that nobody seems to know exactly what she looked like that day.
If their time inside overlapped, it means there was an opportunity for them to have met, certainly. That would add another potential contact in Fulham to JC's known list.
He seems to have relied on threats with weapons to achieve this, but it's not at all far-fetched that he would get SJL to drive him to another Fulham property - that he could claim he owned, or something. One wonders if he had access and was checking whether it was empty.
No indeed. Really interesting post, thanks.
Hi Claire, and welcome to the boards!
What a fascinating post indeed.
What's interesting about that address, is that it's less than 150 yards away from SL's 6pm appointment at 43 Waldemar Avenue, which is just around the corner and is the street than runs parallel to Dorncliffe Road.
Here's the Google Street view link to the house; 10 Dorncliffe Road.
As you mention, the basement flat is accessible via the pathway to the left hand side of the building (as you look at it.)
The Wormwood Scrubs connection is also particularly fascinating.
It does make me wonder if SL had at some point got out of her car to go and join the suited Mr Kipper via that side pathway?
If the sighting at Dorncliffe Road took place earlier, then it may be less relevant to her demise, but IF the sighting was later on in the day, then could SL have been attacked, drugged, and then murdered in that basement?
The killer could then have driven the Fiesta away from Dorncliffe Road and driven the car back to Stevenage Road to park it opposite the Sturgis property at 123 Stevenage Road.
I believe that if this sighting is indeed correct, that it may be a crucial piece of the puzzle.
Do you know roughly what time of the day the sighting occurred?
I also wonder whether the drugs connection may have been another aspect of the case that has been overlooked.
Recreational drug use at that time was popular amongst the "yuppies" in London; those who worked a 9 to 5 during the week, and then got high on hard drugs at the weekends.
Was SL somehow involved in all of that stuff?
What an absolutely fascinating post indeed!
What a fascinating post indeed.
What's interesting about that address, is that it's less than 150 yards away from SL's 6pm appointment at 43 Waldemar Avenue, which is just around the corner and is the street than runs parallel to Dorncliffe Road.
Here's the Google Street view link to the house; 10 Dorncliffe Road.
As you mention, the basement flat is accessible via the pathway to the left hand side of the building (as you look at it.)
The Wormwood Scrubs connection is also particularly fascinating.
It does make me wonder if SL had at some point got out of her car to go and join the suited Mr Kipper via that side pathway?
If the sighting at Dorncliffe Road took place earlier, then it may be less relevant to her demise, but IF the sighting was later on in the day, then could SL have been attacked, drugged, and then murdered in that basement?
The killer could then have driven the Fiesta away from Dorncliffe Road and driven the car back to Stevenage Road to park it opposite the Sturgis property at 123 Stevenage Road.
I believe that if this sighting is indeed correct, that it may be a crucial piece of the puzzle.
Do you know roughly what time of the day the sighting occurred?
I also wonder whether the drugs connection may have been another aspect of the case that has been overlooked.
Recreational drug use at that time was popular amongst the "yuppies" in London; those who worked a 9 to 5 during the week, and then got high on hard drugs at the weekends.
Was SL somehow involved in all of that stuff?
What an absolutely fascinating post indeed!
Last edited:
Clairybums
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2026
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 188
Hi WL, thank you!
I have no clue how to do sections as you have done but I will try to address each point
My father did specify a time that he saw the car outside but without having his statement to refer to, my memory would not be reliable as far as the time of day. I do remember reading somewhere years ago (around the time following my contacting the police) that there was a sighting of SL turning right from Fulham Road onto FPRoad (I think where the little roundabout is and where there was the King's Arms? or King's Head? pub, next to the start of Bishops Park). At the time of reading the article I remember thinking that it did match up with the timing of my father's sighting so the time is something I did know but have long since forgotten. I will try to locate that article.
Yes, the car my dad saw was the one which was recovered from Stevenage Road.
I can't say whether seeing the car jogged his memory or whether he had already put in the report to the police by the time he saw the car being recovered with any accuracy. By the way, this was film footage of the car being lifted and put onto the trailer to be taken away. What I will say is, what caught his attention was the fact that the man entering the alley way towards the basement flat did not look like the usual visitors to the flat and neither did the woman in the car. I would love to have a copy of that report for exact details and the date and time he made the statement.
From my father's vantage point, which was the living room (large victorian windows and high ceiling on the first foor so would have been overlooking downward onto the scene), he would have been able to see the man walking to and part way down the side alley (there's nowhere else down there apart from the door to the basement flat and the access to the back garden further along). Having said that, and for honesty sake, there's no knowing if the man knocked downstairs or not or if he did knock, whether anyone answered. The basement flat door would not have been visible from the vantage point. He could have just as easily picked a random place and as you say, claim that he owned a property there. I'm going to still bear in mind that both the neighbour and JC are linked to WScrubbs around a similar time frame.
Fair point about the photos, so frustrating. My father was adamant that she was blonde and he never wavered from that description. I don't think it ever came to his attention that there was any discrepancy about hair colour, he was just always annoyed that he felt he hadn't been taken seriously. By the time they reinvestigated the case he was deceased and my sister had moved to a smaller place.
Just for information, my father's name was Ernest McConville (just in case anyone is able to gain access to statements. Not sure how amenable the police would be)
Lastly, I just would like to add that I came across this thread purely by chance but I'm so glad I did. It gives me hope when I see there are still people who care enough to make the effort to get to the truth.
Thank you!
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2021
- Messages
- 1,732
- Reaction score
- 5,355
You hit the "+quote" button at the bottom, go to the reply box and click on "Insert quotes" and then "Quote messages". You can separate out the bits you're replying to with the "carriage return" / "enter" key.
There was - BW, a business contact of SJL, saw her driving the white Fiesta north in FPR at around 2.45. The police dismissed this and decided BW must have been thinking of a different day. If your dad saw her in Dorncliffe at around the same time, we would have two sightings mutually corroborating each other. You'd hope that they'd then reconsider whether they'd been right to dismiss BW. If I had to guess, I'd say that having convinced themselves the BW sighting was wrong, they instead dismissed all others that tallied with it as wrong too.
That's a pretty interesting "soft" point. With some of the other witnesses you wonder why they remembered or took any special notice of what they saw. In this case the reason is that the people looked notably out of place.
Which again is interesting because he need not have gone inside. He went into the side alley, did something, came back out. Retrieved a weapon? Went away because nobody was home? Went away because somebody was? SJL must have been taken into a building. Did our man make her drive around a selection that he had available, looking for one he could use?
Interesting considering that that's not the perception. Google "Suzy Lamplugh" and you get the brunette headshots. Everyone now assumes brunette - yet he was sure he saw a blonde, which she indeed somewhat was.
Hereafter "EM" I suggest (we use initials to avoid naming real people, unless they're known felons). The police files are not public. As nobody was ever charged technically it's probably a live inquiry, meaning it can't be FOIAed.
Hi Claire
If your father saw SL's hair colour, then it's more likely that the car was facing SOUTH towards Fulham Road, rather than North.
This would then make more sense for SL to then drive south towards the main road, and then turn right onto Fulham Road, then drive towards the small roundabout and turn right onto Fulham Palace Road.
If the car was facing north on the other hand, then SL would have needed to have navigated the sideroads; some of which I believe had driving restrictions (as they do today)
If the suited man got back into the car after leaving the flat, then the sighting by BW may have then occurred just a few minutes later, once SL had driven her car onto Fulham Palace Road.
This would make the timing that your father saw the car to be sometime around 2.35pm-2.40pm.
However, the sighting may have also been AFTER the 2.45pm sighting by BW on the Fulham Palace Road. In which case, the later the sighting your father had of the car in Stevenage Road, the more likely it is that the basement flat MAY have been the location in which SL was murdered.
That's a rather chilling thought indeed
If your father saw SL's hair colour, then it's more likely that the car was facing SOUTH towards Fulham Road, rather than North.
This would then make more sense for SL to then drive south towards the main road, and then turn right onto Fulham Road, then drive towards the small roundabout and turn right onto Fulham Palace Road.
If the car was facing north on the other hand, then SL would have needed to have navigated the sideroads; some of which I believe had driving restrictions (as they do today)
If the suited man got back into the car after leaving the flat, then the sighting by BW may have then occurred just a few minutes later, once SL had driven her car onto Fulham Palace Road.
This would make the timing that your father saw the car to be sometime around 2.35pm-2.40pm.
However, the sighting may have also been AFTER the 2.45pm sighting by BW on the Fulham Palace Road. In which case, the later the sighting your father had of the car in Stevenage Road, the more likely it is that the basement flat MAY have been the location in which SL was murdered.
That's a rather chilling thought indeed
What's also interesting is that the Fiesta was found with the passenger door locked.
And yet, here we have the suited man getting out of the car.
This means that at some point the passenger door was manually locked by either SL or the abductor himself.
As things stand, we have a time period between 2pm and 3.30pm when there are seemingly no witnesses to the car being parked in Stevenage Road.
If we then take into consideration the sighting by BW at 2.45pm and NOW the sighting of SL and the suited man outside 10 Dorncliffe Road, then it seems to me potentially very significant indeed that the IF the Dorncliffe Road sighting occurred AFTER the BW sighting at 2.45pm in Fulham Palace Road, then the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road may just have been the flat in which SL was murdered.
The suited man then gets into the car in Dorncliffe Road and then drives south into Fulham Road, then turns right at the roundabout into Fulham Palace Road and then essentially REPEATS the earlier journey taken by SL. The abductor then drives into Stevenage Road and parks the car back in the exact same spot opposite 123 Stevenage Road, and then casually walks BACK to the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road.
This would then make the alleged sighting of the dark BMW a complete red herring.
But why?
Well if for example there was a potential link between the drug dealer in Dorncliffe Road, and the man who said he witnessed a BMW speeding off, then perhaps that was a story that was fabricated to throw everyone off the scent?
Was the witness who saw the BMW a credible witness, or someone who perhaps used recreational drugs?
If he was, then it does make one wonder who supplied him.
Conjecture of course from my part.
Is the man who resided in the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road, the man who acted as an accomplice for the suited man, and did SL get herself recklessly involved with the world of narcotics?
And yet, here we have the suited man getting out of the car.
This means that at some point the passenger door was manually locked by either SL or the abductor himself.
As things stand, we have a time period between 2pm and 3.30pm when there are seemingly no witnesses to the car being parked in Stevenage Road.
If we then take into consideration the sighting by BW at 2.45pm and NOW the sighting of SL and the suited man outside 10 Dorncliffe Road, then it seems to me potentially very significant indeed that the IF the Dorncliffe Road sighting occurred AFTER the BW sighting at 2.45pm in Fulham Palace Road, then the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road may just have been the flat in which SL was murdered.
The suited man then gets into the car in Dorncliffe Road and then drives south into Fulham Road, then turns right at the roundabout into Fulham Palace Road and then essentially REPEATS the earlier journey taken by SL. The abductor then drives into Stevenage Road and parks the car back in the exact same spot opposite 123 Stevenage Road, and then casually walks BACK to the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road.
This would then make the alleged sighting of the dark BMW a complete red herring.
But why?
Well if for example there was a potential link between the drug dealer in Dorncliffe Road, and the man who said he witnessed a BMW speeding off, then perhaps that was a story that was fabricated to throw everyone off the scent?
Was the witness who saw the BMW a credible witness, or someone who perhaps used recreational drugs?
If he was, then it does make one wonder who supplied him.
Conjecture of course from my part.
Is the man who resided in the basement flat at 10 Dorncliffe Road, the man who acted as an accomplice for the suited man, and did SL get herself recklessly involved with the world of narcotics?
Clairybums
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2026
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 188
HI Rookie D and thank you!Hi Claire, and welcome to the boards!
What a fascinating post indeed.
What's interesting about that address, is that it's less than 150 yards away from SL's 6pm appointment at 43 Waldemar Avenue, which is just around the corner and is the street than runs parallel to Dorncliffe Road.
Here's the Google Street view link to the house; 10 Dorncliffe Road.
As you mention, the basement flat is accessible via the pathway to the left hand side of the building (as you look at it.)
The Wormwood Scrubs connection is also particularly fascinating.
It does make me wonder if SL had at some point got out of her car to go and join the suited Mr Kipper via that side pathway?
If the sighting at Dorncliffe Road took place earlier, then it may be less relevant to her demise, but IF the sighting was later on in the day, then could SL have been attacked, drugged, and then murdered in that basement?
The killer could then have driven the Fiesta away from Dorncliffe Road and driven the car back to Stevenage Road to park it opposite the Sturgis property at 123 Stevenage Road.
I believe that if this sighting is indeed correct, that it may be a crucial piece of the puzzle.
Do you know roughly what time of the day the sighting occurred?
I also wonder whether the drugs connection may have been another aspect of the case that has been overlooked.
Recreational drug use at that time was popular amongst the "yuppies" in London; those who worked a 9 to 5 during the week, and then got high on hard drugs at the weekends.
Was SL somehow involved in all of that stuff?
What an absolutely fascinating post indeed!
Yes, the gardens in Waldemar Avenue backed onto our gardens. I remember after we moved there in 1979 my father having to fight to stop the people who owned their property in Waldemar Avenue from taking part of our garden by purchasing the land from the local council. We were not affluent but were living in a victorian house owned by Hammersmith and Fulham council. You would never get offered such a property now in social housing.
To be honest I had not known anything about an appointment for Waldemar Avenue until I stumbled onto this thread.
As to SL going to the basement flat, she didn't. I cannot reliably say she didn't get out of the car at all at any point but she definitely didn't go to the basement flat, not during the time that my father was watching. He would have either heard the car pull up or happened to be by the window and saw it but he watched from start to finish and my recollection is that the car had pulled up outside, the man got out and went towards the basement flat (only the man went to the alley way) and after an unspecified amount of time (that may be specified in the statement) the man came out, got in the car and they drove off. I don't want to say something that might not be true. The road was a very quiet road apart from the drug dealer downstairs and my father kind of kept an eye on things and events to do with that flat. My sister was 18, my brother was 16 and I was 13 when we moved in there so it wasn't ideal to find out we'd moved in above that kind of situation. My sister was diagnosed with a serious mental illness shortly after we moved so my father had to be at home a lot from then onward.
Getting back on track... I'm quite annoyed with myself that I didn't make note of times. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess but as I mentioned in another post, I remember reading somewhere years ago that SL had been spotted turning right from Fulham Road onto FPRoad and that the timing of that sighting did correspond to the time that my father would have seen them in Dorncliffe Road. If only I could get another look at my father's witness statement. In the meantime I will try to find that post if it's still up and post a link. Regardless of how reliable or unreliable the other sighting was, the timing matched up. That's not to say anyone should believe one statement and not another. I can only vouch for my father's attention and honesty.
I know that the usual people who frequented the flat downstairs were not of the middle or upper class variety which is why these people pulling up there and him heading towards the basement flat stuck out like a sore thumb. I will be speaking to my brother soon so will ask what the neighbour's name was. To me, I just remember he was a scary looking black guy and I was warned by my father to keep away from him and his visitors but I wasn't fully knowing why until I was older. I suppose there is always a possibility that he could've supplied to others, just I never saw yuppie types going there..
I don't think I've read anything about SL and drugs. I'd be inclined to think if there was any connection to the neighbour at all it would likely have been the man. That's just my own opinion. I'm trying to keep an open mind as to who the man was and not let myself fit the story round one particular person. It's quite difficult.
I'm finding these threads really interesting too. Lots of information I wasn't aware of and so many branches to different areas.
Thank you!
It seems to me that once the police ruled out the 2.45pm sighting by BW of SL driving her Fiesta up Fulham Palace Road, they then dismissed or discounted any other sighting, because they believed the Fiesta had stayed stationary in Stevenage Road the entire time.
And it's precisely this p**s poor policing that tends to lend itself to scores and scores of solvable murder cases becoming cold cases.
Aside from lack of definitive evidence; poor policing procedure is the 2nd biggest reason for many cases becoming cold.
However, as I've said previously; I believe that the Fiesta was MOVED and then driven back and parked up in the SAME spot in Stevenage Road. This occurred sometime between 2pm and 3.30pm; ergo, THIS is the abduction window.
At 2.45pm SL is alive and well.
The sighting in Dorncliffe Road then occurs during the SAME time frame; ergo, between 2pm and 3.30pm.
By the time the car is then parked BACK in Stevenage Road at 3.30pm, SL has been abducted. And the reason why the car is then parked BACK in Stevenage Road?
Because it acts as the perfect distraction and misdirection.
The police spent so much time trying to work around the car being parked in Stevenage Road, they didn't consider that the abduction occurred just AFTER BW saw SL driving up Fulham Palace Road.
BW was the ONLY witness on that day from 12.30pm who actually KNEW SL.
BW's sighting is the most reliable source, and yet the police chose to favour the sightings made by the 3 MEN in Shorrolds Road?
I think that may speak for itself. A hint of misogyny perhaps?
It wouldn't surprise me.
And it's precisely this p**s poor policing that tends to lend itself to scores and scores of solvable murder cases becoming cold cases.
Aside from lack of definitive evidence; poor policing procedure is the 2nd biggest reason for many cases becoming cold.
However, as I've said previously; I believe that the Fiesta was MOVED and then driven back and parked up in the SAME spot in Stevenage Road. This occurred sometime between 2pm and 3.30pm; ergo, THIS is the abduction window.
At 2.45pm SL is alive and well.
The sighting in Dorncliffe Road then occurs during the SAME time frame; ergo, between 2pm and 3.30pm.
By the time the car is then parked BACK in Stevenage Road at 3.30pm, SL has been abducted. And the reason why the car is then parked BACK in Stevenage Road?
Because it acts as the perfect distraction and misdirection.
The police spent so much time trying to work around the car being parked in Stevenage Road, they didn't consider that the abduction occurred just AFTER BW saw SL driving up Fulham Palace Road.
BW was the ONLY witness on that day from 12.30pm who actually KNEW SL.
BW's sighting is the most reliable source, and yet the police chose to favour the sightings made by the 3 MEN in Shorrolds Road?
I think that may speak for itself. A hint of misogyny perhaps?
It wouldn't surprise me.
Clairybums
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2026
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 188
BBM. This was quite a simple procedure to do back in the day. Step out of the car, press the button down and press up the outside handle upwards and close. No need for a key.
Did the Police not infer that because the driver's door was open and the passenger door locked that the driver was likely alone when they placed the car on Stevenage Road? Or am I misremembering this?
Great post Claire!
Ah I see, so that would mean that it's almost certain that the timing of what your father saw, was likely to have been circa 2.35pm-2.40pm; ergo, around 5 minutes or so before SL was seen driving up Fulham Palace Road with the suited man in her Fiesta.
So that would mean that SL drove to Dorncliffe Road and waited for the suited man to go into the basement flat of a known drug dealer, and then drive off again after the suited man returned.
Why would SL do that?
It seems almost certain that at this stage, she wasn't under any duress.
So what does this tell us?
Well it certainly opens up a world of possibilities that's for sure.
There was reported to have been a fierce argument overheard by someone who got into a taxi cab just around the corner from Stevenage Road, but I can't recall the timing for that.
Could SL have been arguing with the suited man over his intention to go and see the drug dealer in Dorncliffe Road?
And why would SL drive him to Dorncliffe Road in the first place?
So many more questions have arisen here.
Could the man have payed for drugs? Or did he go there to collect the murder weapon?
Of course, there's no evidence as to whether a murder weapon was used.
It's a wonderfully perplexing riddle to solve for sure.
Yes, the way the car was left would suggest that the abductor had put SL somewhere else, and then driven the car to Stevenage Road by himself.
If one can for a moment imagine the scenario whereby the car is driven off by SL just after 2pm, but the killer then drives the car back to the SAME spot before 3.30pm, meaning that SL is then abducted at some point AFTER 2.45pm when she is seen by BW on the Fulham Palace Road; ergo, she is abducted between 2.45pm - 3.30pm, then ALL of the sightings make chronological sense; except for the BMW sighting.
The issue is that IF the car ISN'T moved between 12.45pm to when it's found just after 10pm, then nothing works.
THAT'S the exact mindset the police took by dismissing the main key reliable witness; BW.
Her sighting is the proof that the car was MOVED and then driven BACK by the killer to the SAME spot.
It's almost too obvious, that it's no wonder the police didn't consider it.
The killer and SL had been seen in Stevenage Road prior to 2pm, and so that's how the killer knew exactly where to park it up again when he drove it back there just before 3.30pm.
It all means that SL was held somewhere within very close proximity.
I really do believe that she never even left Fulham, and that her body was dumped somewhere locally.
JC then jumps on the SL bandwagon, as he had done with the HFSR who terrorised the West Midlands in 1980.
JC was just as much a fantasist as he was a killer.
Clairybums
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2026
- Messages
- 53
- Reaction score
- 188
Hi Rookie D,
I'm inclined to think the same. Up Dorncliffe and right onto Fulham Road. If my memory serves me right, I'm sure it would have been possible to turn left onto Hestercombe Av and left onto Waldemar Av, only if you carried on past Waldemar and turned right there's no through road part way down. I have not been around there for quite a few years now. I'm going to assume SL was driving unless I somehow get hold of that statement.
I think perhaps the BW you are referring to may be the same person from the article I read and that timing sounds familiar to me. Was that the person who knew SL personally? I'm sure the person identified SL as the driver. Since I can't imagine her and the man switching places mid drive then I'm going with right onto Fulham Road etc.
I really don't think the sighting was later in the day. If I find out the BW sighting was the same person I remember then that would be the correct times because back when I read it, the information I actually knew at that time would have been accurate.
That would be a chilling thought but I don't believe it happened there. The basement flat did have it's moments though. One night a young woman ran out of there in a right state and had to duck down behind cars to escape from the neighbour. I think it was actually his girlfriend at the time.
Similar threads
Guardians Monthly Goal
Staff online
-
GhostwheelPyrrhonist
Online statistics
- Members online
- 157
- Guests online
- 985
- Total visitors
- 1,142