UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986

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  • #881
According to AS, SL was driving when BW saw her.
Could be that business partner Mr Kipper persuaded SJL to drive him around to other potential properties, then when BW (who also had clients who were looking for properties) saw her she was going towards Hammersmith to drop Mr Kipper off. If this is the case something went wrong between them and this resulted in her disappearance.
For her to disappear without trace the whole thing rings of a carefully planned event, not a random spur of the moment impulse murder.
 
  • #882
What we lack here to verify these supposed sightings at 37SR is a "control". If the police ask Did anyone see anything suspicious outside 37SR? you get people coming forward saying Yes, I did. If you ask again 14 years later, amazingly you get more, different people all coming forward saying Yes I did and what's more I can apparently now remember the exact date and time of something I had forgotten for 14 years. The more you ask, the more detailed the reports and the more the later ones support or improve on the earlier ones. If the police asked again today no doubt there would be more fresh sightings still, although these days they'd all be sightings of JC.

A control would be for the police to ask if, in connection with this, any witness saw anyone like SJL with a man in the Commercial Road at about 3pm. I suspect you would get a lot of witnesses coming forward likewise. Someone would describe a couple, the woman would look a bit like SJL, and the man would look like MG. 14 years later, there would probably be people who could now remember the couple arguing in a BMW heading towards Docklands.

The difference is that I just totally made that up. SJL never went anywhere near there, but as a control, it would tell you a lot about the reliability of the supposed other sightings at 37SR if you got a lot of people all reporting something that definitely never happened. For me, the concern about the quality of these is the instability of the accounts (they keep improving), the mutual inconsistency (the forgotten Mr Kipper photofit has him with a broken nose; how can the others not notice that?), and the witnesses' backgrounds (they're all unemployed with time to fill and nothing much going on). They amount to saying that a couple were seen in the street, therefore this was SJL and A N Other. But you could probably find witnesses to that for any street in London, on any day. Essentially, I fear all the 37SR sightings originate in the other accounts that put SJL there, starting with the one in her own desk diary.

A good example of how this can happen is the fact that a woman came forward and claimed to have seen SJL and Mr Kipper in Stevenage Road. As the early sighting of B396 GAN there has been pretty much debunked - by the BT workers and latterly by DV - and as it is likely that the killer dumped the car there alone, it is quite possible that this sighting was completely imagined. This one gets little attention, perhaps because like the BW sighting it wrecks the police narrative about an abduction from 37SR; but, unlike the BW sighting, it probably didn't happen.

Re SJL living beyond her means, I'm not sure this is such a mystery: she just got men to pay for her social life. She went out with a lot of men and liked them to be well-heeled so her nights out were probably free. This was a thing in the 80s. I can recall my mates and I discussing with amazement that our new girlfriend had bought a round. I once dated a girl who in six months paid for one drink and half a curry. She was very, very pretty; this happened. SJL had a lodger whose contribution helped with the mortgage. She would have paid for her own clothes and meals at home, but even her car was fully expensed. If she had had substantial "commissions" coming in, there would be some trace of it found, even if in the shape of her mysteriously not withdrawing cash from hole-in-the-wall machines (because she had a wad of notes at home).

The £3,000 "commission", the events at the PoW, and the BW sighting are the real conundrums in all this.
 
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  • #883
For her to disappear without trace the whole thing rings of a carefully planned event, not a random spur of the moment impulse murder.

Which expresses, in one sentence, why the DV PoW hypothesis - at least, as presented in his book - doesn't ring true.

You don't kill someone off the cuff then improvise a hiding place in central London so brilliant that the body is not found after 36 years.
 
  • #884
What we lack here to verify these supposed sightings at 37SR is a "control". If the police ask Did anyone see anything suspicious outside 37SR? you get people coming forward saying Yes, I did. If you ask again 14 years later, amazingly you get more, different people all coming forward saying Yes I did and what's more I can apparently now remember the exact date and time of something I had forgotten for 14 years. The more you ask, the more detailed the reports and the more the later ones support or improve on the earlier ones. If the police asked again today no doubt there would be more fresh sightings still, although these days they'd all be sightings of JC.

A control would be for the police to ask if, in connection with this, any witness saw anyone like SJL with a man in the Commercial Road at about 3pm. I suspect you would get a lot of witnesses coming forward likewise. Someone would describe a couple, the woman would look a bit like SJL, and the man would look like MG. 14 years later, there would probably be people who could now remember the couple arguing in a BMW heading towards Docklands.

The difference is that I just totally made that up. SJL never went anywhere near there, but as a control, it would tell you a lot about the reliability of the supposed other sightings at 37SR. For me, the concern about the quality of these is the instability of the accounts (they keep improving), the mutual inconsistency (the forgotten Mr Kipper photofit has him with a broken nose; how can the others not notice that?), and the witnesses' backgrounds (they're all unemployed with time to fill and nothing much going on). They amount to saying that a couple were seen in the street, therefore this was SJL and A N Other, but you could probably find witnesses to that for any street in London on any day. Essentially, I fear all the 37SR sightings originate in the other accounts that put SJL there, starting with the one in her own desk diary.

A good example of how this can happen is the fact that a woman came forward and claimed to have seen SJL and Mr Kipper in Stevenage Road. As the early sighting of B396 GAN there has been pretty much debunked - by the BT workers and latterly by DV - and as it is likely that the killer dumped the car there alone, it is quite possible that this sighting was completely imagined. This one gets little attention, perhaps because like the BW sighting it wrecks the police narrative about an abduction from 37SR; but, unlike the BW sighting, it probably didn't happen.

Re SJL living beyond her means, I'm not sure this is such a mystery: she just got men to pay for her social life. She went out with a lot of men and liked them to be well-heeled so her nights out were probably free. This was a thing in the 80s. I can recall my mates and I discussing with amazement that our new girlfriend had bought a round. I once dated a girl who in six months paid for one drink and half a curry. She was very, very pretty; this happened. SJL had a lodger whose contribution helped with the mortgage. She would have paid for her own clothes and meals at home, but even her car was fully expensed. If she had had substantial "commissions" coming in, there would be some trace of it found, even if in the shape of her mysteriously not withdrawing cash from hole-in-the-wall machines (because she had a wad of notes at home).

The £3,000 "commission", the events at the PoW, and the BW sighting are the real conundrums in all this.
Agree 100% with your comments, this is why AS’s book is so important, it’s close to the event and he had access to the police & family.
By contrast DV appears to have had no access to police files, and probably very little access to the family. Interviews will have been conducted 30 plus years after the event, which must make them questionable.
IMO for SJL to disappear so completely two scenarios tend to jump out, one is JC did it, and it was him BW saw with SJL heading towards Hammersmith.
Alternatively, CV did it and DV hit the nail on the head. The loss of her diary and what may have been in it drives this one. When DV said “just follow the timeline” this is where you end up.
So in essence the Mets JD is right and JC did it, or Scotland Yard’s ex DV has it and CV did it.
The latter is probably the easiest to prove / disprove, it would just need the Met to take a serious look.
 
  • #885
It’s such a Frustrating case and you can understand why it’s not been solved.


Like where do you even know start as it could be as simple as she got snatched on her way to collect her car and was bundled into it.
 
  • #886
Which expresses, in one sentence, why the DV PoW hypothesis - at least, as presented in his book - doesn't ring true.

You don't kill someone off the cuff then improvise a hiding place in central London so brilliant that the body is not found after 36 years.
What I don’t get with the DV narrative is that it would be relatively inexpensive for the Met to look at this and say, look we told you so, you got it all wrong. After all they did say in the media that they’d leave no stone unturned and this is a pretty big stone.
The cynical view would be that they’ve openly said JC did it and don’t want to loose face by finding her remains in a place that (even back in 1986) the DC’s that visited the POW’s said was suspicious.
 
  • #887
I definitely think the Met have closed the case on this so this book just stirs it all up again.


I think DV has raised a lot of questions that need looking into but the police are obviously not going to do that.
 
  • #888
If the police investigate DV's hypothesis and he's right, that a/ makes them look stupid, and b/ wrecks the case for keeping JC in prison beyond 2022. The Parole Board can nowadays deny early release on the basis of suspicion of other crimes. If the police say they think JC probably killed SJL, that could be enough to keep him inside.

In a way there's a certain delicious irony in the way JC has behaved over this over the years. There's no evidence connecting him to this crime at all, but to attract attention and to take the p155 out of the police, he's acted as though he knew something. Since he started doing so, the law around early release changed (in the wake of the John Worboys case), so that if it looks like someone who's about to be released has other unsolved crimes against their name, early release can be denied. Thanks largely to JC himself, SJL's unsolved murder could keep him behind bars.

Initially the police clearly needed a perp to prove they had solved the crime, and it fitted JC nicely. Latterly the real agenda behind police insistence that he did it could be that it keeps him in jail.
 
  • #889
It’s super strange how JC is blamed but there isn’t a single bit of evidence is there?


That doesn’t sit right with me and no doubt he is a horrible vile human being and done awful things but without evidence I don’t understand why they can say he has done it.
 
  • #890
If the police investigate DV's hypothesis and he's right, that a/ makes them look stupid, and b/ wrecks the case for keeping JC in prison beyond 2022. The Parole Board can nowadays deny early release on the basis of suspicion of other crimes. If the police say they think JC probably killed SJL, that could be enough to keep him inside.

In a way there's a certain delicious irony in the way JC has behaved over this over the years. There's no evidence connecting him to this crime at all, but to attract attention and to take the p155 out of the police, he's acted as though he knew something. Since he started doing so, the law around early release changed (in the wake of the John Worboys case), so that if it looks like someone who's about to be released has other unsolved crimes against their name, early release can be denied. Thanks largely to JC himself, SJL's unsolved murder could keep him behind bars.

Initially the police clearly needed a perp to prove they had solved the crime, and it fitted JC nicely. Latterly the real agenda behind police insistence that he did it could be that it keeps him in jail.
While I agree with this and the fact that it appears JC is getting his just deserts for (if he didn’t do it) leading the Met along with totally fictitious lies. The Met have a civic duty to the Lamplugh family to give them closure if that’s at all possible.
It’s all very well for the Met to talk the talk and in the media make statements like “leave no stone unturned” and the do absolutely nothing.
JC is suspected of killing Sandra Court, it’s possible that there’s enough circumstantial evidence in this case to persuade a parole board to reject early release.
I think they’ve convinced themselves that JC is guilty even though they have no evidence.
 
  • #891
It’s super strange how JC is blamed but there isn’t a single bit of evidence is there?


That doesn’t sit right with me and no doubt he is a horrible vile human being and done awful things but without evidence I don’t understand why they can say he has done it.
I agree with you, however, we’re not talking a court of law, the CPS would not prosecute JC because there was not enough evidence.
This is exactly what you are saying, but the police made a media statement saying they were not looking for anyone else. Which is basically, he’s guilty but we can’t prove it, case closed.
I’ve worked with a few barristers, always for the prosecution, and the way it works is that they must have a watertight case.
A defence barrister will defend someone even if he feels he’s guilty, it’s not his job to decide this. It’s up to the prosecutors to prove guilt and this must be 100%.
So it’s no surprise that JC has never been charged with SJL’s murder.
 
  • #892
It’s super strange how JC is blamed but there isn’t a single bit of evidence is there?
There really isn't. The claim that JC did it arose after he was convicted of murdering Shirley Banks. It occurred to the press after the trial. Pretty well every other bit of "evidence" is entirely circumstantial or easily upended in court, eg

The artist's sketch looks like JC. Says who? Nobody ever picked him out of an identity parade. Why does nobody say the same about the photofit?
He was a recently-released rapist. Between 1,000 and 3,000 rapists are convicted per year, and therefore also released. So in the 6 months to July 1986, at least 1,000 were recently released and - given its size - about 30 others besides JC were released from the Scrubs. Why is it him and not any of them?
He had a black BMW. Not until 1987. In 1986, he had half a red Sierra.
He was from Bristol. Not until 1987. In 1986, he was from Sutton Coldfield.
He had no alibi. He gave an alibi in 1989 and the police failed to check it for 11 years. By the time they did everyone he named was dead. So yeah, by 2000 he had no alibi. What about the other 30 the Scrubs had just released? Where are their alibis?
I saw someone who looked like JC doing X. Usually these accounts date from 14 years later.
I saw someone who looked like JC looking in the window of Sturgis. 14 years later.
He was known in prison as Kipper because he wore kipper ties. What, in prison? In the 80s? Whose word have we for this, another honest reliable lag? Why would he use a pseudonym that identified him?

And so on. Literally nothing unearthed in the investigation at the time led to him at the time. It was all ex post speculation. It could be him, but the above amounts to nothing evidentially.

That doesn’t sit right with me and no doubt he is a horrible vile human being and done awful things but without evidence I don’t understand why they can say he has done it.

It's what the police do; if they can't find the perp, they typically fit up whomever they can find, often just the local weirdo. After their case against Colin Stagg for the murder of Rachel Nickell collapsed, the police huffily announced that they weren't looking for anyone else. Note: exactly as they did with JC and SJL. A few years later, Robert Napper was convicted of her murder.

All the insistence on JC really tells us is that they have no better ideas and that the original investigation comprehensively failed.
 
  • #893
There really isn't. The claim that JC did it arose after he was convicted of murdering Shirley Banks. It occurred to the press after the trial. Pretty well every other bit of "evidence" is entirely circumstantial or easily upended in court, eg

The artist's sketch looks like JC. Says who? Nobody ever picked him out of an identity parade. Why does nobody say the same about the photofit?
He was a recently-released rapist. Between 1,000 and 3,000 rapists are convicted per year, and therefore also released. So in the 6 months to July 1986, at least 1,000 were recently released and - given its size - about 30 others besides JC were released from the Scrubs. Why is it him and not any of them?
He had a black BMW. Not until 1987. In 1986, he had half a red Sierra.
He was from Bristol. Not until 1987. In 1986, he was from Sutton Coldfield.
He had no alibi. He gave an alibi in 1989 and the police failed to check it for 11 years. By the time they did everyone he named was dead. So yeah, by 2000 he had no alibi. What about the other 30 the Scrubs had just released? Where are their alibis?
I saw someone who looked like JC doing X. Usually these accounts date from 14 years later.
I saw someone who looked like JC looking in the window of Sturgis. 14 years later.
He was known in prison as Kipper because he wore kipper ties. What, in prison? In the 80s? Whose word have we for this, another honest reliable lag? Why would he use a pseudonym that identified him?

And so on. Literally nothing unearthed in the investigation at the time led to him at the time. It was all ex post speculation. It could be him, but the above amounts to nothing evidentially.



It's what the police do; if they can't find the perp, they typically fit up whomever they can find, often just the local weirdo. After their case against Colin Stagg for the murder of Rachel Nickell collapsed, the police huffily announced that they weren't looking for anyone else. Note: exactly as they did with JC and SJL. A few years later, Robert Napper was convicted of her murder.

All the insistence on JC really tells us is that they have no better ideas and that the original investigation comprehensively failed.
Yes, and off topic slightly Micheal Stone was convicted and has been in prison for 20 years, when the evidence points towards Levi Bellfield. IMO Stone was in the right place to be an easy target.
 
  • #894
Yes, and off topic slightly Micheal Stone was convicted and has been in prison for 20 years, when the evidence points towards Levi Bellfield. IMO Stone was in the right place to be an easy target.
Levi Bellfield attended the birthday party of his gf on the day of the murder. She says it would be impossible for him to be in two places at once
 
  • #895
Did AS mention other sightings of SL before they were discounted by the police? Did anyone see her in Putney? Did anyone from the other branches of Sturgis resemble the photofit of Mr Kipper?
 
  • #896
Agree 100% with your comments, this is why AS’s book is so important, it’s close to the event and he had access to the police & family.
By contrast DV appears to have had no access to police files, and probably very little access to the family. Interviews will have been conducted 30 plus years after the event, which must make them questionable.
IMO for SJL to disappear so completely two scenarios tend to jump out, one is JC did it, and it was him BW saw with SJL heading towards Hammersmith.
Alternatively, CV did it and DV hit the nail on the head. The loss of her diary and what may have been in it drives this one. When DV said “just follow the timeline” this is where you end up.
So in essence the Mets JD is right and JC did it, or Scotland Yard’s ex DV has it and CV did it.
The latter is probably the easiest to prove / disprove, it would just need the Met to take a serious look.

my main issues with DV’s theory — although I do think it’s worth exploring and looking in the pub as a location SJL might have gone to — are that if the diary was so explosive and CV was somehow threatening or blackmailing her — I mean into sex, basically because how else could it have gone down if we are talking about a heat of the moment thing — is that CV and/or his wife had already done the responsible thing and called the bank to alert SJL and SJL knew her diary and postcard were at the pub too because CV told her and she arranged to pop by.

He was interviewed by the police twice according to AS and came across as honest. If he’d really just murdered someone and hidden the body all on the spur of the moment and then knowing the police would eventually find out about her appointment to visit the pub and then suddenly the cops show up soon after you just killed and the body is yards away— are you going to come across as normal and honest?

the diary was a pocket diary not one of the big ones where you write your life story in too.
 
  • #897
Levi Bellfield attended the birthday party of his gf on the day of the murder. She says it would be impossible for him to be in two places at once
The file I saw had witness statements identifying a car the same type and colour as his that day, and his was then found burned out, which was something he tended to do after his crimes.
 
  • #898
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DV live on You Tube, Weds December 15th, 9pm UK time.

As 'David will also answer your questions live on air', if you were able to put a question to DV on the SL case, what would you ask?
 
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  • #899
Oh dear, looks like that link isn't allowed.

Either click on the underlined 'Watch on You Tube' or go on to You Tube itself and search for 'suzy lamplugh murder academy' ....
 
  • #900
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

DV live on You Tube, Weds December 15th, 9pm UK time.

As 'David will also answer your questions live on air', if you were able to put a question to DV on the SL case, what would you ask?




This is good news and definitely have questions
 
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