UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 July 1986

[Pinkizzy]

Remind me again what the £3k commission was about?

I agree that it does seem she was lured out of the office for something. The least plausible possibility to me is that she was lured back to the pub in broad daylight by a member of staff to be killed there (how would he have known she hadn't told 10 people where she was going?)

I think people in the office knew about the missing items but they thought she was collecting her things at 6pm. When did the police visit the pub? I think DL knew about the missing items and that's why I guess she called the pub that afternoon after she received a call from MG

 

[Terryb808]

Remind me again what the £3k commission was about?

I agree that it does seem she was lured out of the office for something. The least plausible possibility to me is that she was lured back to the pub in broad daylight by a member of staff to be killed there (how would he have known she hadn't told 10 people where she was going?)

It’s been a point of discussion for some time now, she had apparently told friends that she was about to receive a commission / bonus. Don’t know where the £3 k came from, but it’s been a point of discussion generally. Back then it was a large amount of money, certainly as a commission.
If you add this to the fact that she was selling her flat, something was definitely on the cards.
Maybe the two things are linked in some way?

 

[Pinkizzy]

It’s been a point of discussion for some time now, she had apparently told friends that she was about to receive a commission / bonus. Don’t know where the £3 k came from, but it’s been a point of discussion generally. Back then it was a large amount of money, certainly as a commission.
If you add this to the fact that she was selling her flat, something was definitely on the cards.
Maybe the two things are linked in some way?

Do you think she was selling her flat through Sturgis or another agency and pocketing the commission?

 

[Terryb808]

Do you think she was selling her flat through Sturgis or another agency and pocketing the commission?

Interesting, I’d have thought SL would have had enough contacts to sell without using a third party.
My singular thought process made me think the two things were separate, only being linked by the fact that they happened at the same time.
The general view is that SL was selling her flat to go into business with someone, and that she then found her rich man and abandoned the project (and AL).

 

[Pinkizzy]

Interesting, I’d have thought SL would have had enough contacts to sell without using a third party.
My singular thought process made me think the two things were separate, only being linked by the fact that they happened at the same time.
The general view is that SL was selling her flat to go into business with someone, and that she then found her rich man and abandoned the project (and AL).

I guess the £3000 commission was a reward for going into business with someone. Her friends at the 21st party knew about it.

 

[Terryb808]

I guess the £3000 commission was a reward for going into business with someone. Her friends at the 21st party knew about it.

Well in this case we have a new theory, if Harry Riglin mistook SL’s boss and another female for Mr Kipper and additionally got the time wrong, it puts others in the frame.
Previous discussions highlighted the possibility that PSS & TS were the couple outside 37 Shorrolds, and they were there to seal the deal with SL.
This raised the question “why meet there, why not a pub or restaurant”, I have to agree meeting at Shorrolds makes no sense.
So if the couple was SL’s boss & a female, then maybe SL went somewhere else to give the person the bad news.
That being she was not going into business with them. In this case the phone calls to the landlord of the PoW may be correct.

 

[Dan Cooper]

 

[CrimeC243]

Suzy Lamplugh Trust

 

[WestLondoner]

Well in this case we have a new theory, if Harry Riglin mistook SL’s boss and another female for Mr Kipper and additionally got the time wrong, it puts others in the frame.
Previous discussions highlighted the possibility that PSS & TS were the couple outside 37 Shorrolds, and they were there to seal the deal with SL.
This raised the question “why meet there, why not a pub or restaurant”, I have to agree meeting at Shorrolds makes no sense.
So if the couple was SL’s boss & a female, then maybe SL went somewhere else to give the person the bad news.
That being she was not going into business with them. In this case the phone calls to the landlord of the PoW may be correct.

This discussion shows in a way how pervasive the Mr. Kipper myth has been. Once one absorbs that Mr Kipper was fictitious, the presumption still tends to be "If she didn't meet Mr Kipper at 37 Shorrolds o/s, who did she meet there?" Answer: nobody, because the meeting was fictitious too. But this is how 'sticky' the Mr Kipper story is. If he wasn't there we reflexively want to place someone else there, such as PSS and TS, whoever they are.

If you step back from it a bit, the idea of abducting her from a house viewing makes little sense. If you want to assault her then OK; you get her into an empty house, and afterwards you make your escape, perhaps in her car. But how does the set-up help you if you intend to take her away? You have to get her into your car, or get yourself into hers; you have to do it before she's missed, which may be very quickly; and once she is, her colleagues know exactly where to look.

To my mind, this is the problem with any abduction scenario one can think up. If an abductor wanted to lure her somewhere, why didn't he lure her somewhere after work, so she won't be missed for 15 hours or so?

I wonder if the pub thing is another red herring; I mean yes, that's where she headed, plus she needed to go home to pick up her tennis gear, but I don't see why either destination bears on what happened to her. She could be under that pub floor or on the embankment, but unless there's something important DV hasn't shared (eg that someone working at the pub was a convicted sex offender), why would she be?

 

[Crusader21]

I've still a few theories ....

1. Was SL immediately car-jacked at Whittingstall Road? JC or even a random 'Fred West' type operator? Wisked away, murdered, buried at an unknown location and never heard off again?

2. Did this £3K 'commission' possibly mean she met someone else on that Monday lunchtime?

The well-dressed man with champaign / wine bottle seen talking to a blonde haired female on the grass at Bishops Park? With that meeting resulting in SL being imediately taken away, and her car left just down the park road the other side of the football ground?

3. Did SL's chosen lifestyle catch up with her? Resulting in her death ....

The rich man pictured in last photo took off for the Caribbean, has he ever been questioned?

What about SLs 'best friend', the US tv celeb who SL was meant to be going in to business with. Did SL have a relationship with her husband? Did a combination of business / sexual interests with this individual end in murder? May expalin the total silence today ....

4. Did SL disturb something when entering a (closed) pub that Monday lunchtime? Did she see something (illegal) perhaps that mean't she need to be silenced for fear of her going to the police?

Aside from acting landlord, I'd imagine the Irish cellarman was there after the morning's stocktake. Could he or others have been involved in organised gang crime, terrorism even?


35 years on a few things strike me -

The police putting all their eggs in the Kipper basket has been an absolute disaster. Have basic immediate players in this story ever been questioned by the police?

I also would tend to agree with what someone said earlier. That we don't know enough or even about a particular individual, who prob holds the key to this crime ....

Failure to search pub by Met beggars belief! Can you imagine renovations being carried out in the pub say in 20 years time, unearthing human remains? With a printed book by ex cop appearing in 2021 pinpointing that location?!

Sadly I think we'll need uncover SL's remains to piece together what happened that day. And that does appear to be very unlikely .....

 

[WestLondoner]

I think people in the office knew about the missing items but they thought she was collecting her things at 6pm. When did the police visit the pub? I think DL knew about the missing items and that's why I guess she called the pub that afternoon after she received a call from MG

It's possible, I guess, but it seems quite a stretch. It requires DL to have known about the missing items, which she could only have heard about from SJL. But when MG called her on Monday afternoon, to ask if she knew where SJL was, DL said she last heard from her on Sunday night. She didn't say she had spoken to SJL that day, nor did she mention the lost property at the pub, nor suggest to MG that SJL might have gone to that pub, and she didn't mention this to the police, either (they found out about it via the landlord after the inquiry hit the TV). This suggests to me she did not know.

Those two phone calls to the pub are intriguing. The one purporting to come from a Hammersmith policeman obviously did not. The actual police were from Fulham, weren't involved till later in the day, and when they were, it wasn't to look for her lost property. Hence this call was from the abductor. Only the bank and SJL knew the missing cheque book was at the pub. So after talking to SJL and hearing about the lost property, he realises the implications for how soon she would be missed. He cold-bloodedly rings the pub to find out if she was indeed expected there, and if so, when. This would tell him how long he had to do whatever he intended to do.

Rather chillingly, this tells us something else: the abductor doesn't care that SJL's diary is sure to turn up. He isn't concerned to get the diary back. He just wants to check where it is. Why? I'd suggest because he knows nothing in it identifies him. He was either a complete stranger to SJL; or, she knew him but under false details, so anything about him in her diary is useless.

This latter point is incidentally another reason to disbelieve the Mr Kipper story. What kind of kidnapper gives himself an alias he was supposedly known by in prison, makes appointments in that name, then turns up to the appointments?

The call from a woman, though, calling herself "Sarah" and asking for "Susan" to be kept there till she arrived....no idea at all.

 

[Terryb808]

This discussion shows in a way how pervasive the Mr. Kipper myth has been. Once one absorbs that Mr Kipper was fictitious, the presumption still tends to be "If she didn't meet Mr Kipper at 37 Shorrolds o/s, who did she meet there?" Answer: nobody, because the meeting was fictitious too. But this is how 'sticky' the Mr Kipper story is. If he wasn't there we reflexively want to place someone else there, such as PSS and TS, whoever they are.

If you step back from it a bit, the idea of abducting her from a house viewing makes little sense. If you want to assault her then OK; you get her into an empty house, and afterwards you make your escape, perhaps in her car. But how does the set-up help you if you intend to take her away? You have to get her into your car, or get yourself into hers; you have to do it before she's missed, which may be very quickly; and once she is, her colleagues know exactly where to look.

To my mind, this is the problem with any abduction scenario one can think up. If an abductor wanted to lure her somewhere, why didn't he lure her somewhere after work, so she won't be missed for 15 hours or so?

I wonder if the pub thing is another red herring; I mean yes, that's where she headed, plus she needed to go home to pick up her tennis gear, but I don't see why either destination bears on what happened to her. She could be under that pub floor or on the embankment, but unless there's something important DV hasn't shared (eg that someone working at the pub was a convicted sex offender), why would she be?

My post was not to say that SL was at Shorrolds, the opposite in fact, the people witnessed at Shorrolds were two others and that these two others were not PSS & TS (can’t give names).
In that case SL probably went to collect her money, and then collect her lost things as a secondary errand.
If this is the case it could explain the phone calls as TS is male and PSS female. In this case it puts a new light on what happened to SL.
It’s long been said in this and our zapped (previous) thread that SL may have been car jacked in Whittingstall Road and this is a very distinct possibility.
Much as a lot of people may not like this it is JC’s exact MO and fits with the PoW phone calls. Also IMO saying that the police officer was from Hammersmith also fits as it’s very likely that JC would have had some kind of temporary accommodation in that area.
As said before we have 3 possibilities:

1. SL was abducted in Whittingstall Road as she got into her car, prime suspect JC.
2. SL kept an appointment with her killer who was to pay her the £3k. I have a prime suspect, but can’t outline them now.
3. SL went to the PoW and was for an unknown reason killed, prime suspect Clive Vole.

Of these 3 options 1 & 2 are the most likely, option 3 could be more important depending on what is in the diary and how important SL felt it was.

 

[Crusader21]

The one purporting to come from a Hammersmith policeman obviously did not.

BW claimes she saw SL driving Hammersmith direction at 2.45pm. Was that call made from that locality?

JC worked for a prop hire firm based in Acton. Did he have access to a warehouse / premises in Acton / Hammersmith?

 

[WestLondoner]

SL may have been car jacked in Whittingstall Road and this is a very distinct possibility.
...
As said before we have 3 possibilities:

1. SL was abducted in Whittingstall Road as she got into her car, prime suspect JC.
2. SL kept an appointment with her killer who was to pay her the £3k. I have a prime suspect, but can’t outline them now.
3. SL went to the PoW and was for an unknown reason killed, prime suspect Clive Vole.

Agree re carjack, possibly by someone she knew.

I'd agree re 1, but there's literally no evidence that it was JC beyond its being the kind of thing he'd do. He had been in the general area for some months, but he had an alibi for that day from several people (all now deceased). It's not like there are 50 ways to abduct someone and he always used #37.

I'm not sure I follow this £3k "commission" idea. I've never heard of anyone being paid a commission at the outset of anything. You get commissions after the fact. As an estate agent, she could perhaps have earned an illicit commission by concealing the highest bid for a property from the vendor in return for a kickback from a lower bidder (eg someone bids £150k for a place, someone else bids £144k, SJL hides the £150k bid and gets the seller to accept £144k; she then gets half of the £6k she saved the underbidder). I wonder whether anyone had recently exchanged contracts at properties Sturgis was selling? If so, and there was some kind of deal in it for her, that would trigger her kickback.

The idea of there being something nefarious going on at the pub is interesting and I was intrigued in DV's book by his mention of a cellarman who is never mentioned again. The reservation I have with this though is that if something dodgy was going on, in a busy pub, you'd surely have to be killing several people a week to keep your secret safe.

 

[WestLondoner]

BW claimes she saw SL driving Hammersmith direction at 2.45pm. Was that call made from that locality?

JC worked for a prop hire firm based in Acton. Did he have access to a warehouse / premises in Acton / Hammersmith?

We don't know where the call was made from; in fact, in 1986, there was as yet no way to know. Itemised phone bills only gave numbers dialled.

Whoever did this must have had access to some reasonably secure spot. JC had left the prop hire firm the previous Friday. He gave DV a copy of the reference he received, which DV verified with its writer. I guess it's possible he had pinched a key to have it copied so he could use it after he'd left - but again, how quiet would a props (or any) warehouse be on a working day?

 

[Crusader21]

The idea of there being something nefarious going on at the pub is interesting and I was intrigued in DV's book by his mention of a cellarman who is never mentioned again.

Irishman 'Brendan' in DV's book. So SL is buried in cellar yet cellarman hardly mentioned?!

Was 'Nicolas Doyle', a big witness for the the Suzy met Kipper at 1pm story, also Irish?

Just after 21.00 on

 

[Crusader21]

Whoever did this must have had access to some reasonably secure spot ..... I guess it's possible he had pinched a key to have it copied so he could use it after he'd left - but again, how quiet would a props (or any) warehouse be on a working day?

Perhaps the prop firm had a number of units, premises in that area. Maybe a store location which was infrequently / hardly ever used .....

I read somewhere that when JC was arrrested in 1987, the police found quite a few keys in his possession which they weren't able to id the locks for .....

- Could JC have abducted /attacked / raped SL in the immediate vacinity of Sturgis at approx 1.35pm.

- With a then traumatized SL being forced to drive JC somewhere (BW Fulham Palace Rd, sighting 2.45pm). JCs MO .....

- Only for SL to be then further kept in a secure location (perhaps Acton / Hammersmith). With JC then returning her car to Fulham?

- Was the 'James Galway guy' also in Crimewatch, actually JC with dummy beard, hailing a taxi (also his MO) to North End Rd to get public transport to take him back to that unit back in Acton / Hammersmith?

 

[Pinkizzy]

I guess SL may have died in front of her business partners in the PoW. Remember they called in the recs a week after SLs disappearance

 

[WestLondoner]

As a matter of interest what persuades you that this was JC? I tend to discount any speculative inclusion of JC, simply because there's as much evidence he did it as there is evidence that I did it, which is to say there's none.

He was never put on an identity parade. AFAICT he only really comes up at all because he looks vaguely like the artist's impression. But then so do lots of people - MG; Fred West; Gary Stretch; Steven Seagal; Harry Styles; and so on and so on - and the impression is anyway of someone at a place SJL never was.

There are about 800 homicides every year in the UK, about two-thirds of which, 550 or so, are solved. But something like 2,500 people go missing every year in the UK, and are never seen again. If only half the missing are killed - and of course these are all unsolved homicides - then the number goes up sixfold, from 250-odd to over 1,500. That's also about three times as many unsolved homicides as solved.

JC's not necessary to any counter-hypothesis. There are, probably, plenty of nutters out there capable of doing something like this; hundreds, perhaps thousands. And they've got a 75% chance of getting away with it.

 

[Crusader21]

As a matter of interest what persuades you that this was JC?

Admittingly a link from The Sun 'newspaper', but something that I've always thought has a bearing on this case.

This was reported to the police days after SL went missing in July '86.

The lady in question worked in an opticians on Fulham Palace Rd. Not far from the BW siting and Stevenage Rd.

Mum-of-three reveals 'Suzy Lamplugh prime suspect Mr Kipper' says he targeted her three days before estate agent disappeared