Undoing

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,

Yes he can be called to testify as part of any legal process. Yes what you suggest would be the consequence of any child crime under those laws, but in practise any serious violation would be reported even if only in the third person. There have been cases in other states where children have accidently killed other children, and although their names are not reported, the circumstances tell everyone just who is being reported.

If Burke had killed JonBenet or been accussed of it we would know about it, but everyone in authority would cite the law and refuse to discuss?

I think it is improbable that Burke was involved in the death of JonBenet. Due to his silence and collusion, it will be part of his legacy that he remains as a suspect since he was a resident on the night of her death.


.

he may just get tired of that someday and clear himself.

 

[Solace]

he may just get tired of that someday and clear himself.

And then would Lin Wood sue him on behalf of the estate?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Yes, very common. The divide and conquer strategy, even when a spouse is guilty, or involved in some manner, the spouse will be offered some kind of plea bargain in return for either a reduced sentence or misdemeanor charges.

The spouse normally a wife, is then represented to the court as a tragic victim, who has harrowing testimony to present to the court, but that will help convict her husband who is usually described as having a personality disorder, and being abusive etc.

This strategy guarantees results in cases where lack of co-operation might result in a long drawn out legal process, or the main players are married.

Also in JonBenet's case it is likely that only one person actually killed her, assuming it was not a joint effort, then the police know one of the parents could be offered a lower degree homicide charge, or none at all, in return for testimony that would secure a conviction.


.

thx,I was just asking something similar on the Darlie forum.

 

[JMO8778]

I was wondering that myself. I am not all that familiar with Colorado law, but CAN he ever be called to testify on this (supposedly still open) case? Even if someone can't be charged with a crime under age 10, why can't they be charged at a later time? So all anyone needs to do to kill someone in Colorado is have someone present under 10 and blame them, and like magic, the crime never occurred. Interesting...who do they think is burued in JBR's grave? A non-existant little girl?

she certainly gets treated as if it were an empty grave,IA.

 

[JMO8778]

And then would Lin Wood sue him on behalf of the estate?

wouldn't he have to prove that BR is lying? LW doesn't know,he wasn't in the house.he only knows whatever PR and JR have told him.

 

[coloradokares]

And then would Lin Wood sue him on behalf of the estate?

There is an interesting thought!!:waitasec:

 

[solvy]

Hi Rash,

You are 1000% right. If not for the sexual assault, this would be cut and dry. But she does have what appears is a staged assault and I believe it is staged. As far as prior sexual abuse, I just don't think it happened. I think there would be too many people to keep quiet if there were prior abuse. I do not think it would have started with JB. He had two other girls - one is dead, and that almost crushed him, and the other is adamant that nothing happened. I do not think he would welcome that kind of pain again. Colorado said it was well known in some Colorado circles that douching was happening. The maid said there was daily screaming from Patsy and JB coming from the bathroom, (an exaggeration, possibly yes, but I think it did happen). I realize that some might say douching does not cause this. But yet, she is a very small child. It could cause abrasions. If Patsy is doing this, she is doing it to humiliate her so that she will stop wetting her underwear. If she is doing it to humiliate her, she is not going to be nice about it and she could very well hurt her.


This is what I think.

IMO, IF douching was happening, this could account for some of the internal injury, however, I still think perhaps BR was playing doctor and the parents knew, but thought it was a phase he would outgrow.

 

[Ames]

IMO, IF douching was happening, this could account for some of the internal injury, however, I still think perhaps BR was playing doctor and the parents knew, but thought it was a phase he would outgrow.

Patsy CLAIMED that she had a conversation, more than once..with JB concerning what is appropriate for others to touch and what wasn't. She said that she told her that it was NOT OKAY for ANYONE, but Patsy, JB or her dr., to touch anything that a swimsuit covered. SO, if this is true....it seems to me that JB would have told Patsy or John that Burke was touching her where her swimsuit covered.

 

[BOESP]

Unless it was deliberate, an act of irrefutable murder with intent , follow my thought, and Burke was very close to the age cutoff, .... who can say as close to the cut off age as he was what the outcome might have been. There has been in every state exceptions made and children charged and in some cases as adults, that be the case, take all criteria, and that Jon Benet had been harmed prior by Burke from a golf club incident! The only scenario that fits is #1 they did not know that Burke or indeed themselves could not be charged so in their desperation to protect Burke they lied and staged and false reported SFF or #2 they knew or had special knowldege that since Burke had hurt Jon Benet before and they had failed to protect her that could somehow alter how the state would likely handle this matter and charges would likely be brought one way or the other ...... or Burke being removed from the home and I am only rambling and mulling over various possibilities well ......I just dont see this all fitting. I think its a real stretch to insert Burke in this at all unless that golf club incident had changed things in ways we dont imagine.?!? But, personally I just dont see it. I really think there were more problems in that house than any of us knew about and $$ and power and appearances hid those problems and protected their reputations till that night they had a body on their hands and rather than face the consequences they staged and wrote ransom notes and did what must be done to protect themselves and each other and sadly it worked. One thing is true we may never know or have the truth confirmed to us. That is because nothing of substance was ever done to obtain truth or justice for Jon Benet. I really think they know who killed Jon Benet but they will never charge or prosecute.

CK, I am strongly leaning toward your ideas as stated above. My only qualm is Steve Thomas's theory. Of course, it is only a theory, but it is an educated theory since he had first-hand access to the evidence. There are just many options for what could have happened but the evidence suggests at least one parent was involved in some way.

Thomas also stated that he didn't believe Burke was involved and that he (Thomas) felt sorry for the poor kid. However, I still find Blue Crab's theory interesting and viable.

 

[Solace]

Patsy CLAIMED that she had a conversation, more than once..with JB concerning what is appropriate for others to touch and what wasn't. She said that she told her that it was NOT OKAY for ANYONE, but Patsy, JB or her dr., to touch anything that a swimsuit covered. SO, if this is true....it seems to me that JB would have told Patsy or John that Burke was touching her where her swimsuit covered.

I don't think Patsy would have allowed that. It is not her personality.

 

[Ames]

I don't think Patsy would have allowed that. It is not her personality.

If JB had of told...I don't think that she would have allowed it either. I just don't believe that Burke was playing DR. with JB, and JB didn't tell anyone.

 

[solvy]

Patsy CLAIMED that she had a conversation, more than once..with JB concerning what is appropriate for others to touch and what wasn't. She said that she told her that it was NOT OKAY for ANYONE, but Patsy, JB or her dr., to touch anything that a swimsuit covered. SO, if this is true....it seems to me that JB would have told Patsy or John that Burke was touching her where her swimsuit covered.

I had not heard that PR had spoken to her about it.

 

[Ames]

I had not heard that PR had spoken to her about it.

Its in her 98 interview....if you haven't read it, and John's....you need to. Its really enlightning!!! I will try and find that part for you, because its a VERY LONG interview, and it would take some time to find it, if you haven't read it already, and know where to look for it.

Here ya go....from Patsy's 98 Interview..

24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.
25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you
0095
1 think she would communicate that to you, or was
2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it
3 to herself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would
5 have told because we had talked about all the
6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any
14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you
15 about maybe other children at school she was
16 having difficulty with, would she share those
17 kind of points?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Which one is it, she
20 would share?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not have
22 difficulty. She will tell me everything.
23 TOM HANEY: While we are on the
24 subject, tell us a little bit about what you
25 did, not little, tell us what you told JonBenet
0096
1 and when and how did this start, about what
2 belongs to her and what's off limits and what
3 she would do?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
5 first time I started thinking about, you know,
6 you think kids are oh, to young to start talking
7 about that, but Pinky Barber, a friend of mine,
8 had been to a some kind of seminar on child
9 safety or something. And she wanted me to go
10 along and for some reason I couldn't attend with
11 her, so I discussed with her what -- you know,
12 she said well, that they spent some time talking
13 about how to talk with your children about
14 strangers and all that kind of stuff. And she
15 said I talked to my girls about it.
16 And I said you did? What did you
17 say? She said that's when this bathing suit
18 thing came up. She said I just tell them that
19 nobody touches you where the bathing suit
20 touches.
21 And I thought that was a really
22 great way to approach that, because, you know,
23 those little ones are -- there is boundaries,
24 you know. So JonBenet and I, I don't know,
25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on
0097
1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these
2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,
3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever
4 touches your private parts except mommy and
5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.
6 TOM HANEY: About when would you
7 have started conveying this idea to her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she
9 was four.
10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it
11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was
13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was
14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more
15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,
16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the
17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in
18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those
19 kind of family kind of situations.
20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,
21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume
22 a one-time conversation?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I
24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't
25 something I preached on every day, you know. It
0098
1 was kind of a --
2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any
3 questions about that at the time or any time
4 since?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to
7 her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you
10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.


And so, I believe that she would have told her mom, if Burke had tried to play dr. with her.

 

[DeeDee249]

If JB had of told...I don't think that she would have allowed it either. I just don't believe that Burke was playing DR. with JB, and JB didn't tell anyone.

We'll never know for sure unless BR ever speaks about it, but housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh claimed to "catch" them in suspicious behavior, when the kids "ordered" her to shut the door. (I think they were under blankets or something). Anyone have this saved anywhere?
It isn't a far-fetched concept- it certainly does occur often with opposite-sex siblings.

 

[Ames]

We'll never know for sure unless BR ever speaks about it, but housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh claimed to "catch" them in suspicious behavior, when the kids "ordered" her to shut the door. (I think they were under blankets or something). Anyone have this saved anywhere?
It isn't a far-fetched concept- it certainly does occur often with opposite-sex siblings.

See my edited post #133, where I have added Patsy's portion of the interview about inappropriate touching.

 

[solvy]

Ames- Thanks for posting that for me. I know it takes a long time to read the interviews, and sometimes even longer for things to soak in to my brain. Perhaps I will have time this weekend to absorb more.

 

[UKGuy]

Its in her 98 interview....if you haven't read it, and John's....you need to. Its really enlightning!!! I will try and find that part for you, because its a VERY LONG interview, and it would take some time to find it, if you haven't read it already, and know where to look for it.

Here ya go....from Patsy's 98 Interview..

24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.
25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you
0095
1 think she would communicate that to you, or was
2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it
3 to herself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would
5 have told because we had talked about all the
6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any
14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you
15 about maybe other children at school she was
16 having difficulty with, would she share those
17 kind of points?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Which one is it, she
20 would share?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not have
22 difficulty. She will tell me everything.
23 TOM HANEY: While we are on the
24 subject, tell us a little bit about what you
25 did, not little, tell us what you told JonBenet
0096
1 and when and how did this start, about what
2 belongs to her and what's off limits and what
3 she would do?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
5 first time I started thinking about, you know,
6 you think kids are oh, to young to start talking
7 about that, but Pinky Barber, a friend of mine,
8 had been to a some kind of seminar on child
9 safety or something. And she wanted me to go
10 along and for some reason I couldn't attend with
11 her, so I discussed with her what -- you know,
12 she said well, that they spent some time talking
13 about how to talk with your children about
14 strangers and all that kind of stuff. And she
15 said I talked to my girls about it.
16 And I said you did? What did you
17 say? She said that's when this bathing suit
18 thing came up. She said I just tell them that
19 nobody touches you where the bathing suit
20 touches.
21 And I thought that was a really
22 great way to approach that, because, you know,
23 those little ones are -- there is boundaries,
24 you know. So JonBenet and I, I don't know,
25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on
0097
1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these
2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,
3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever
4 touches your private parts except mommy and
5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.
6 TOM HANEY: About when would you
7 have started conveying this idea to her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she
9 was four.
10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it
11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was
13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was
14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more
15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,
16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the
17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in
18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those
19 kind of family kind of situations.
20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,
21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume
22 a one-time conversation?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I
24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't
25 something I preached on every day, you know. It
0098
1 was kind of a --
2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any
3 questions about that at the time or any time
4 since?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to
7 her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you
10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.


And so, I believe that she would have told her mom, if Burke had tried to play dr. with her.

Ames,

This is what Patsy alleges she told JonBenet, we have no way of knowing if this is factual or simply fabricated after her death?

e.g. What did Mommy say to JonBenet about other people wiping her down, what did she say to her about her requesting to be wiped down, did JonBenet ever ask if it was ok if Fleet White wiped her down and changed her underwear, also what did she say about displaying those private areas at pageants?

6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.

Not daddy, not Burke, not grampa, mmm that I do not believe, since these guys are all on the suspect list, why no mention of Fleet White, Priscilla, Susan Stine, LHP, or anyone one else who may be requested to deal with one of JonBenet's toilet incidents?

Why does Patsy consider her own family so undeserving with the trust of JonBenet?


.

 

[UKGuy]

And so, I believe that she would have told her mom, if Burke had tried to play dr. with her.

Ames,

LHP is on record suggesting she walked in on Burke and JonBenet playing doctors, also Burke and JonBenet regularly shared his bed, the nights leading up to xmas were an example, Patsy states this in one of her interviews.


That is, it is highly likely that Patsy was aware that Burke and JonBenet played doctors, she condoned the bed sharing?

Just another example of the dysfunctional Ramsey family life.


.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

That's true, UKGuy, Patsy does have a record of lying and telling interviewers whatever she thinks will make her sound like a great mom. We can't assume she's telling the truth because she's speaking. JB seemed to have no problem requesting help wiping her "lady parts" for all the talks Patsy apparently gave her about not letting anyone touch her there.

Ugh, with Dr Beuf if Mommy is in the room...poor JB shouldn't have had to tolerate a doctor inspecting her genitals as often as she had to. 5 or 6 vaginal exams between the ages of 3 and 6...tch tch, I cannot name one other little girl I know who has had to go through that much examination of the genital/vaginal area at such a young age. Most little girls have no idea they even have a vagina, because they never have to experience itching or irritation in it. What the hell was going on in JonBenet's life???

 

[JMO8778]

Ames,

This is what Patsy alleges she told JonBenet, we have no way of knowing if this is factual or simply fabricated after her death?

e.g. What did Mommy say to JonBenet about other people wiping her down, what did she say to her about her requesting to be wiped down, did JonBenet ever ask if it was ok if Fleet White wiped her down and changed her underwear, also what did she say about displaying those private areas at pageants?


Not daddy, not Burke, not grampa, mmm that I do not believe, since these guys are all on the suspect list, why no mention of Fleet White, Priscilla, Susan Stine, LHP, or anyone one else who may be requested to deal with one of JonBenet's toilet incidents?

Why does Patsy consider her own family so undeserving with the trust of JonBenet?


.

good point,why is she seemingly blocking LE from considering any thought of abuse from her own family?
she mentioned that they called FW "Mr Mom",and he brought her underwear home in a bag once,yet she doesn't mention him,or any other person,in her supposed talk w. JB in the interview.