US coal mine collapse traps six-Utah - Thread No. 2

[drew]

In West Virginia, as we saw in a previous articles, the mining industry is leveling mountains. While the Utah mountains are a little more rugged, I'm sure the mining industry can accomplish the task. Of course, afterward, everything looks liike sh*t, so the environment pays a very heavy price.

That's a little harsh dont you think? After all since the 1970's strip mining companies have had to comply with reclaimation laws. Even though you and I seem to be on different sides of the pro/con on coal mining Bussm1, I will admit you seem to have a grasp on the facts about mining.

Something else that is misunderstood here by some, is the Quecreek Mine accident. People assume you can just drill a big hole in the ground EXACTLY in the right location and send down the cage and get your miners out safely. When in reality the hole they dug at Quecreek was sort of a fluke. It was very surprising that they found the exact location to drill on the first try.Plus they weren't drilling near as deep as they need to in Utah. That accident was different than this one. Quecreek guys were fighting water not a cave in or explosion that effected their air quality.

 

[Buzz Mills]

[/B]

That's a little harsh dont you think? After all since the 1970's strip mining companies have had to comply with reclaimation laws. Even though you and I seem to be on different sides of the pro/con on coal mining Bussm1, I will admit you seem to have a grasp on the facts about mining.

Something else that is misunderstood here by some, is the Quecreek Mine accident. People assume you can just drill a big hole in the ground EXACTLY in the right location and send down the cage and get your miners out safely. When in reality the hole they dug at Quecreek was sort of a fluke. It was very surprising that they found the exact location to drill on the first try.Plus they weren't drilling near as deep as they need to in Utah. That accident was different than this one. Quecreek guys were fighting water not a cave in or explosion that effected their air quality.

The Que Creek hole was around 230' deep; drilled 50, or so, feet, from a paved road, in very gently rolling terrain. You are right, there is no comparison to the hole that would be required to be drilled in Utah..

With respect to strip mining, when you end up with flatlands, where once there were mountains, that's certainly detract's from the area. While it's better that they now replant the area, it is a far cry compared to what it was before the mining came along.

Of course whatever they do to improve the land, compared to leaving the open gaping wounds, that they used to leave after mining an area, is certainly an improvement for the better.

 

[cheko1]

[/b]

That's a little harsh dont you think? After all since the 1970's strip mining companies have had to comply with reclaimation laws. Even though you and I seem to be on different sides of the pro/con on coal mining Bussm1, I will admit you seem to have a grasp on the facts about mining.

Something else that is misunderstood here by some, is the Quecreek Mine accident. People assume you can just drill a big hole in the ground EXACTLY in the right location and send down the cage and get your miners out safely. When in reality the hole they dug at Quecreek was sort of a fluke. It was very surprising that they found the exact location to drill on the first try.Plus they weren't drilling near as deep as they need to in Utah. That accident was different than this one. Quecreek guys were fighting water not a cave in or explosion that effected their air quality.

Drew,
The facts are even though we're on opposite sides there are 6 miners trapped & being left behind. Murray has stated "repeatedly" the miners should be able to live for weeks upon weeks offering HOPE continually until Sun.

So why the change of heart & mind???????

 

[drew]

Drew,
The facts are even though we're on opposite sides there are 6 miners trapped & being left behind. Murray has stated "repeatedly" the miners should be able to live for weeks upon weeks offering HOPE continually until Sun.

So why the change of heart & mind???????

Did it ever occur to you cheko1 that maybe he was just wrong. Maybe he made an honest mistake. Maybe he had hope and if he said it, it would happen. Maybe he really cares about his employees and wanted them to be alive.
Maybe now he is mourning and shamed and embarrassed, Sheesh how long are you going to beat this horse?? Sometimes in life, things happen and it's no ones fault.
And one more thing, even if you, yourself were to stand at the opening of that mine and sign up volunteers and family members to go in and look for survivors IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. Not because Mr Murray wouldnt allow it, because MSHA IS IN CHARGE!!! Thats how it works.

I feel for these families. I think these miners were probably dead from day one though. I think they are buried under rock and coal. For two weeks there has been an on going rescue/recovery. It's not like people were not trying. I really dont have the answer about what they should do now.

 

[JanetElaine]

Did it ever occur to you cheko1 that maybe he was just wrong. Maybe he made an honest mistake. Maybe he had hope and if he said it, it would happen. Maybe he really cares about his employees and wanted them to be alive.
Maybe now he is mourning and shamed and embarrassed, Sheesh how long are you going to beat this horse?? Sometimes in life, things happen and it's no ones fault.

So how does that figure in with Murray holding the paychecks for the familes... they haven't gotten a penny not even the money they were due. Murray said he will give the paychecks to the miners themselves! I mean is he being mean, or stupid, or both? What message is he sending? Not one of mourning and embarrassment.

 

[Buzz Mills]

Drew,
The facts are even though we're on opposite sides there are 6 miners trapped & being left behind. Murray has stated "repeatedly" the miners should be able to live for weeks upon weeks offering HOPE continually until Sun.

So why the change of heart & mind???????

I think it was the realization that the oxygen level, in the mine, at the site of the fourth hole, was not enough to sustain life, which made them accept the fact that the miners were deceased; this after having just lost three rescue miners due to the walls bursting.

If they see any of the miners bodies with this 5th drill hole, we'll have to see where it goes from there. If they saw, and made the decision to recover a body, despite the immense dangers inherent in such an attempt, the families would not rest until all bodies are recovered.

So, the question is, where do they draw the line, and say they are stopping all further recovery efforts??

 

[Utopia]

I don't think anyone has posted these yet. This is from the kutv website and is the footage from an interview with the brother and son of Kerry Allred and the brother of Manual Sanchez. They have it listed as "raw footage" - it's appropriately titled, it is definitely raw.



Part 1 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
Part 2 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
[FONT=&quot]Part 3 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
Part 4 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
Part 5 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]

[/FONT] Any news of bore hole 5 yet? I've heard nothing and I thought they were suppose to break through last night some time.

Something as been bugging me. Doesn't the fact that they have drilled holes in and around where the men were last supposed to be working with no sign of them at least indicate that they moved from there - therefore indicating they survived the initial blast?

I realize they could be buried under rubble or just out of site of the camera - but still....what if they're not?

I think they need to at least find them one way or the other. To stop at this point with the slightest remote chance that even one of them survived would be wrong IMO. I wouldn't want to see anyone else's life put in danger but at the very least keep poking holes until they find them. How many places can they be?

I agree with Buzz and others who have pointed out the impracticality of drilling the 30 inch hole unless they can locate them.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[drew]

So how does that figure in with Murray holding the paychecks for the familes... they haven't gotten a penny not even the money they were due. Murray said he will give the paychecks to the miners themselves! I mean is he being mean, or stupid, or both? What message is he sending? Not one of mourning and embarrassment.

JanetElaine,
I looked back over the articles posted here but couldnt find what you are speaking of. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

 

[JanetElaine]

No I can't. I have this from a family directly. And there's way more. It just gets on my nerves that Murray keeps getting defended like that when he did plenty wrong. Sure if you don't have that info you can't count it in and I understand that. That's the problem with getting news through the media only. The people involved know way more and that does NOT equate 'town gossip'. What they say and makes it to the media comes from a certain perspective not always understood by the media themselves or those who hear/read it, because of the missing background and inside information. I'm not saying I know everything. In fact I know jack all. I just hear from this family that's going through this. That's the rawest newsfeed you'll ever get.

 

[JanetElaine]

Something as been bugging me. Doesn't the fact that they have drilled holes in and around where the men were last supposed to be working with no sign of them at least indicate that they moved from there - therefore indicating they survived the initial blast?

You're hitting the nail right on the head.

The families have asked from day one that a capsule hole be drilled straight to where they were supposed to flee to. A big drill for that has been promised, too. But nothing actually happened.
Watch this: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/news/miners.trapped/

 

[drew]

No I can't. I have this from a family directly. And there's way more. It just gets on my nerves that Murray keeps getting defended like that when he did plenty wrong. Sure if you don't have that info you can't count it in and I understand that. That's the problem with getting news through the media only. The people involved know way more and that does NOT equate 'town gossip'. What they say and makes it to the media comes from a certain perspective not always understood by the media themselves or those who hear/read it, because of the missing background and inside information. I'm not saying I know everything. In fact I know jack all. I just hear from this family that's going through this. That's the rawest newsfeed you'll ever get.

No problem
I agree with you about the media

 

[JanetElaine]

No problem

Thank you. I always make sure not to post info that I can't back up with links (regarding any topic). And I debated on whether to post that or not. I decided to post because frankly I'm just so frustrated with everything. Everything these families have to endure and then lies on top. It turns a sad event, an accident, into something even more sad, torture, and possibly criminal (depending on the outcome of any investigation of course).

 

[cheko1]

Did it ever occur to you cheko1 that maybe he was just wrong. Maybe he made an honest mistake. Maybe he had hope and if he said it, it would happen. Maybe he really cares about his employees and wanted them to be alive.
Maybe now he is mourning and shamed and embarrassed, Sheesh how long are you going to beat this horse?? Sometimes in life, things happen and it's no ones fault.
And one more thing, even if you, yourself were to stand at the opening of that mine and sign up volunteers and family members to go in and look for survivors IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. Not because Mr Murray wouldnt allow it, because MSHA IS IN CHARGE!!! Thats how it works.

I feel for these families. I think these miners were probably dead from day one though. I think they are buried under rock and coal. For two weeks there has been an on going rescue/recovery. It's not like people were not trying. I really dont have the answer about what they should do now.

Seriously Drew I don't think Murray has a honest bone in his body! This is a discussion forum & we're discussing it here, sorry if that offends you but thats just the way we operate here. I AM NOT beating that dead horse to death.

Reasons I feel that way: Comments from Murray....
1. We'll bring the miners home either dead or alive
2.It was an earthquake that caused the collapse
3. These men can live for weeks with the oxygen levels in the mine
4.We're NOT doing retreat mining in Murray mines
5. Fox news is lieing we're not doing retreat mining
6.I can truthfully say, we at Murray Energy have never had any serious accident before this collapse & it was caused my a earthquake
7.Rob Moore stated Murray was administering to families after the 2nd collapse / yet the families never seen him

Why do you feel I should overlook all of these statements & promises?
Why should the families????
Why wasn't more equipment brought in to drill more bore holes????
We wouldn't even be having this conversation if more drills were brought in. Was money the object????
Did he just plain not give a chit because it wasn't a member of his family trapped?

Does he have something to hide in his mining operations that was illegal?
By entombing the miners the world would never know about illegal mining & that would totally erase his unsafe mining conditions. Did bore hole 4 pictures show something Murray never ever wanted the world to see?

Seriously I am trying to understand, he should be embarassed Drew.....as my dear Grandma & Mom always said if a mans word is no good / he isn't either. I do live by that rule too.

 

[JanetElaine]

They're still working on drilling hole #5 but should be finished soon, then they're going to put the instruments down in there and listen. There should be a press conference some time today (nice and vague, that one ).

MSHA inspector Gary Jensen's funeral is at 2pm EST today, miner Brandon Kimber will have a private funeral on Friday. There are visiting hours in Price (today) and Moab (tomorrow) for him.

 

[cheko1]

Thank you. I always make sure not to post info that I can't back up with links (regarding any topic). And I debated on whether to post that or not. I decided to post because frankly I'm just so frustrated with everything. Everything these families have to endure and then lies on top. It turns a sad event, an accident, into something even more sad, torture, and possibly criminal (depending on the outcome of any investigation of course).

JanetElaine,
Your post made me cry......I can only imagine the problems these families are having & its heart wrenching & totally wrong, your correct its torture & I sincerely hope if its found to be criminal the parties responsible will he held accountable & see prison time for it.
~~ Hugs to you & your friends~~

 

[JanetElaine]

Awww thank you Cheko, I didn't mean to make you cry...

 

[cheko1]

I don't think anyone has posted these yet. This is from the kutv website and is the footage from an interview with the brother and son of Kerry Allred and the brother of Manual Sanchez. They have it listed as "raw footage" - it's appropriately titled, it is definitely raw.



Part 1 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
Part 2 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
[FONT=&quot]Part 3 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]
[FONT=&quot]Part 4 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Part 5 - http://kutv.com/video/[email protected][/FONT]

[/FONT]Any news of bore hole 5 yet? I've heard nothing and I thought they were suppose to break through last night some time.

Something as been bugging me. Doesn't the fact that they have drilled holes in and around where the men were last supposed to be working with no sign of them at least indicate that they moved from there - therefore indicating they survived the initial blast?

I realize they could be buried under rubble or just out of site of the camera - but still....what if they're not?

I think they need to at least find them one way or the other. To stop at this point with the slightest remote chance that even one of them survived would be wrong IMO. I wouldn't want to see anyone else's life put in danger but at the very least keep poking holes until they find them. How many places can they be?

I agree with Buzz and others who have pointed out the impracticality of drilling the 30 inch hole unless they can locate them.

Totally agreed from here Utopia......
Its very possible they moved to a safer area & awaiting rescue.
Its very possible the miners still had there lunches with them & are rationing it. There is no proof they're dead.....there is also no proof they're alive. They seriously need to know one way or other before they entomb them.

 

[Utopia]

They're still working on drilling hole #5 but should be finished soon, then they're going to put the instruments down in there and listen. There should be a press conference some time today (nice and vague, that one ).

MSHA inspector Gary Jensen's funeral is at 2pm EST today, miner Brandon Kimber will have a private funeral on Friday. There are visiting hours in Price (today) and Moab (tomorrow) for him.

Thanks for the update. I'll keep an ear out for a presser today.

 

[Utopia]

Here's a brief update from KUTV confirming 5th hole has broken through.

http://kutv.com/

 

[JanetElaine]

Thanks Utopia. Crossing fingers.....

Does by chance anyone have a link available to the results from hole #2?