US coal mine collapse traps six-Utah - Thread No. 2

[GonzoReiter]

... back in 2001, I remember reading about a comparison of the average coal miner's salary ($50,000.00) against, for example, American Electric Power CEO Linn Draper's year 2000 total earnings of $25,101,107.00—a figure that didn't include the $7,612,500.00 Draper currently held in unexercised stock options.

I would note the average coal miner would "only" have to work 502 more years to equal Draper's one-year haul. It should also be noted that with Draper's salary alone, 21,941 workers could be enrolled in pension plans or health care coverage could be provided to 12,190 uninsured workers.

 

[Marthatex]

... back in 2001, I remember reading about a comparison of the average coal miner's salary ($50,000.00) against, for example, American Electric Power CEO Linn Draper's year 2000 total earnings of $25,101,107.00—a figure that didn't include the $7,612,500.00 Draper currently held in unexercised stock options.

I would note the average coal miner would "only" have to work 502 more years to equal Draper's one-year haul. It should also be noted that with Draper's salary alone, 21,941 workers could be enrolled in pension plans or health care coverage could be provided to 12,190 uninsured workers.

Kind of like the proverbial housewife. Everybody just starts sobbin and cryin -
when they're gone...

Treated her like S___, when she was alive.

 

[FlowerChild]

Different jobs result in different "expectations". These families are hurting and that is understandable - BUT their loved one CHOSE this line of work and understood the dangers. It's the same risks that firefighters, police officers, construction workers and even zoo workers face daily - and NONE of those are high paying jobs either. They may have to accept that recovering their loved ones could cost even MORE lives. The question is - at what price? How many lives do you say are "ok" to lose to recover the 6 men in the mine? The chances of their survival is about zero - no oxygen and no response in over a week - and 3 dead rescuers so far. Of course they WANT to give these families their loved ones - but it should NOT be at the cost of more lives. It's a horrible place to be in for everyone and I can see the pain on BOTH sides....I just do not want to have MORE good men die in an effort that is both deadly and futile - many more could die and the results would not get them one inch closer to the men they are trying to reach.

People can accept that there will be no "body" - it is hard but it happens - and not just in mining disasters. I know the families are haunted by the idea that their loved ones are alive and trapped, but at this point it is so unlikely that they survived the original collapse - and how many MORE lives must be sacrificed in an effort to prove that? At some point it has to be declared "enough", as hard and painful as that might be for the families who wait. I cannot imagine that even in their anger and frustration, they would want more deaths added to a toll that is already far too high. It isn't money that is holding back the efforts, but risk - all the money in the WORLD doesn't make it any safer.

My prayers and thoughts are with ALL those with missing loved ones - in the bridge collapse and in the mine and in everyday life. May they find comfort and solace and peace.

 

[cheko1]

I think in reality the miners families want their loved ones back be it them coming out alive (which I'm fairly certain they don't have much hope for this anymore) or finding their bodies and retrieving them for a proper burial. If there is no body there is no closure and you will always wonder what happened to them. Did they survive the initial collapse? Did they hang on for days hoping help was coming to them?

It's easy to say "you have to let it go" but it's not that easy to do IMO.

I think your post is exactly how the family feels......

 

[cheko1]

(KUTV) HUNTINGTON - The families of the six coal miners trapped underneath a mountain in central Utah heavily criticized mine officials late Sunday -- essentially accusing them of giving up the rescue effort, even though the workers could still be alive.

A spokesman for the families spoke to the public on Sunday night in Huntington, where he essentially called out mine co-owners Robert Murray and Rob Moore for giving up the rescue effort after a fourth bore hole did not yield any promising results.

The families expressed disappointment because rescuers have not yet drilled a hole large enough to lower rescuers down into the mountain -- or carry men out of the mine. They also said that tunneling into the mountain -- which resulted in the deaths of three rescuers after a seismic "bump" on Aug. 16 -- was unnecessary, given the option of drilling the larger hole.

The families' harsh criticisms came just hours after the latest update from mining officials, whose attitude changed dramatically between Saturday and Sunday.

Sunday afternoon, officials admitted they were unsure whether a rescue could be achieved and admitted that the miners might never be found.

More at link: http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_218103238.html

Below is a portion of the article. I am certain this part has the families fuming! This would be very hard for the families to swallow...do you agree or not?

Quote:
If tunneling doesn't restart, part of the mine will have been turned into a tomb. Despite that, Moore said there is recoverable coal in other parts of the 5,000-acre mine, and the company expected to resume operations at some point. He said he didn't discuss that prospect with family members.

 

[browneyes]

Wow, I am so saddened to hear about the latest news. I have been out of town since Thursday am and just saw on the late news last night about the 3 rescue miners getting killed. At first, I thought the "3 dead, 6 injured" was about the original miners and then I realized it was about those trying to rescue their friends.

This is such a tragedy...my thoughts and prayers are with the families of all those involved. I do hope the bodies are eventually found so that the families may put them "to rest".

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I didn't mean it was ever easy to say "let it go". I am quite certain it will be the most difficult thing for some families to do, as it would be for me to do as well. However, the reality is they probably will never come out of this mine. When I said they had to "let it go"...this is what I was referring to. I don't see a feasible way to get to the bodies of the miners and I don't believe they are still alive. They will have to eventually come to terms with it. It is a horrible end to their loved ones, but they knew going in this was always a possibility. They chose to do this work. I would love to be able to say they had options, but frankly...if they wanted to make this kind of money...they probably didn't. Still...this IS the option they took upon themselves to go into and to take the risks involved. Their families have to understand it. It was a definite choice on their part.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Below is a portion of the article. I am certain this part has the families fuming! This would be very hard for the families to swallow...do you agree or not?

Quote:
If tunneling doesn't restart, part of the mine will have been turned into a tomb. Despite that, Moore said there is recoverable coal in other parts of the 5,000-acre mine, and the company expected to resume operations at some point. He said he didn't discuss that prospect with family members.

I am totally against drilling more coal from this mine!! It is not only in bad taste...it spits in the faces of the families! They surely won't do this for the almighty buck! It would be cruel and disrespectful...not to mention...they will rot in hell for it! (And should!)

Uhm...I guess I disagree!

 

[Utopia]

Yes but. I agree these men made a choice to take the job. However, I think its not quite as simple as that. Its sounds like miners are often born into mining families and that's what they do, maybe there is choice but they don't feel there is one if they want to make a half decent living. It also seems that there isn't much else in the way of industry in this area. I know they could move elsewhere, but again not necessarily that simple.

Everyone agrees that mining is inherently dangerous but from everything I've read this mine may have been unnecessarily more dangerous than it ought to have been, for example retreat mining, pushing the mine beyond stability etc. In addition statements have been made that indicate workers were afraid to speak up about safety issues for fear of losing their jobs. Intimidation and unsafe working conditions should not be part of what they signed up for - IMO. All the precautions in the world are not going to prevent some accidents from happening but owner greed should not be a factor. Should anyone dispute the greed factor in this company, Rob Moore's statement about the continuation of mining at Crandall Canyon is a pretty clear indication.

On another note, I have read articles that tell of wages being anywhere from $15/hr to $25/hr, and this is perceived as big money in exchange for the danger of mining. Maybe its because I live and work in a large Canadian city, but that doesn't seem like much money to me for such labour intensive, dirty and dangerous work.

 

[trixie]

I am totally against drilling more coal from this mine!! It is not only in bad taste...it spits in the faces of the families! They surely won't do this for the almighty buck! It would be cruel and disrespectful...not to mention...they will rot in hell for it! (And should!)

Uhm...I guess I disagree!

Ha! Are you kidding SS? EVERYTHING that has been done before AND AFTER the tragedy has all been about the almighty buck. That's the bottom line. IMO.

 

[trixie]

Accidents happen, regardless of the bottom line. He didn't make a conscious decision to have an accident. The mountain became highly unstable. Hiindsight is always close to 20/20. MSHA approved the mining plan, and MSHA approved the rescue plan.

Hi Buzzm1! So has MSHA come out and publicly agreed with Murray that this whole tragedy originally started with an earthquake? I mean a REAL earthquake.

 

[SewingDeb]

TIME
How A Mining Rescue Went Wrong

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070818/us_time/howaminingrescuewentwrong

 

[cheko1]

Yes but. I agree these men made a choice to take the job. However, I think its not quite as simple as that. Its sounds like miners are often born into mining families and that's what they do, maybe there is choice but they don't feel there is one if they want to make a half decent living. It also seems that there isn't much else in the way of industry in this area. I know they could move elsewhere, but again not necessarily that simple.

Everyone agrees that mining is inherently dangerous but from everything I've read this mine may have been unnecessarily more dangerous than it ought to have been, for example retreat mining, pushing the mine beyond stability etc. In addition statements have been made that indicate workers were afraid to speak up about safety issues for fear of losing their jobs. Intimidation and unsafe working conditions should not be part of what they signed up for - IMO. All the precautions in the world are not going to prevent some accidents from happening but owner greed should not be a factor. Should anyone dispute the greed factor in this company, Rob Moore's statement about the continuation of mining at Crandall Canyon is a pretty clear indication.

On another note, I have read articles that tell of wages being anywhere from $15/hr to $25/hr, and this is perceived as big money in exchange for the danger of mining. Maybe its because I live and work in a large Canadian city, but that doesn't seem like much money to me for such labour intensive, dirty and dangerous work.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Shazza]

This is such a sad, sad story, my prayers and thoughts to the miners, the rescuers and the families of all involved.

 

[cheko1]

TIME
How A Mining Rescue Went Wrong

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070818/us_time/howaminingrescuewentwrong

From this link Sewing Deb posted:


So the rescuers had to move very slowly, shoring up the walls and ceilings as best they could - an unconscionable situation, says McAteer. "If we cannot get to miners in a faster, quicker and safer way then we ought not to be engaging in mining where the risks are so great. We should not permit mining at that level of risk." Indeed, it was the long delay in getting to miners that caused 12 deaths in the Sago coal mine disaster in January 2006. In that case, there was no collapse, but rather an explosion in the West Virginia mine. If those miners had had outside communication, they might have known that their way out was unblocked and that no fire was in their path, that they could have walked out easily. Instead, they built a barricade to protect against toxic air, hunkered down and waited for rescue - but it never came, as mine officials were slow to gather a crew and to enter tunnels whose safety they couldn't ascertain. The 12 miners died of carbon monoxide poisoning.


I bet if the owners of the mines were told no mining that deep without a form of communication with "EVERY" miner. The owners would find a system that would work.

 

[JanetElaine]

http://myspace.com/saveour6

Not too much on there yet but looking nice.

Also the families are trying to get the landowners/Genwal to allow drilling a 30 inch hole, since they couldn't get anyone else to do it. Later today there will be a link released to a petition about this.

 

[Buzz Mills]

http://myspace.com/saveour6

Not too much on there yet but looking nice.

Also the families are trying to get the landowners/Genwal to allow drilling a 30 inch hole, since they couldn't get anyone else to do it. Later today there will be a link released to a petition about this.

Where do they want to drill it??

It would take a very long time--up to a month to drill that type of hole.

The slightest seismic event could trap the rescue capsule.

Who would be willing to go down in the rescue capsule into a mine where the tunnel is at least partially filled from previous seismic events, and the air quality won't sustain life. The missing miners are in all probability buried; is this person going to dig them out when they have no idea where they are??

 

[Buzz Mills]

[/B]

Hi Buzzm1! So has MSHA come out and publicly agreed with Murray that this whole tragedy originally started with an earthquake? I mean a REAL earthquake.

The scientists say that it wasn't an earthquake, and I doubt that MSHA would ever argue with them.

 

[Moab]

Where do they want to drill it??

It would take a very long time--up to a month to drill that type of hole.

The slightest seismic event could trap the rescue capsule.

Who would be willing to go down in the rescue capsule into a mine where the tunnel is at least partially filled from previous seismic events, and the air quality won't sustain life. The missing miners are in all probability buried; is this person going to dig them out when they have no idea where they are??

I understand the families wanting the 36" hole dug, but it is futile to dig it until they find where the miners are. They said on the news last night that would take around 2 weeks to dig a hole that large. At the rate of digging the smaller holes (4 of them) the first 36" hole would not have been completed during that time. They are starting on hole #5, and I guess all we can do is hope and pray this is the one where they will find the 6 miners. IF any of them are still alive, they can get water and food to them to sustain them while the 36" hole is dug, and if not, then they can still reach them to retrieve the bodies for the surviving families.

The mine owner and the VP of the mine are very careful when speaking to the public...watching their language to ensure they say "seismic activity" or "seismic event", and they have done this since day one...why? They don't want to be sued! There was no earthquake that started this.

 

[Buzz Mills]

I understand the families wanting the 36" hole dug, but it is futile to dig it until they find where the miners are. They said on the news last night that would take around 2 weeks to dig a hole that large. At the rate of digging the smaller holes (4 of them) the first 36" hole would not have been completed during that time. They are starting on hole #5, and I guess all we can do is hope and pray this is the one where they will find the 6 miners. IF any of them are still alive, they can get water and food to them to sustain them while the 36" hole is dug, and if not, then they can still reach them to retrieve the bodies for the surviving families.

The mine owner and the VP of the mine are very careful when speaking to the public...watching their language to ensure they say "seismic activity" or "seismic event", and they have done this since day one...why? They don't want to be sued! There was no earthquake that started this.

seismic covers any movement, or vibration of the earth, it isn't limited to an earthquake.

The graphs of the seismic events they showed on TV, are seismic graphs, showing the components of the seismic event, both frequency, and amplitude. They show the output of a very sensitive vibration transducer.