Found Deceased UT-5 -Year-Old Elizabeth Shelley Found Deceased (UNCLE ARRESTED) #4

[MsBetsy]

It's interesting that according to his grandfather, Alex was five years old when his mother left him, as that is the same age as his victim when he ended her life.
I wonder how often he saw her, or if he was close to his sister and saw the kids often. It's possible that he may have done something to her before that was not appropriate. Imo

 

[Seattle1]

LE would have combed thru it and once he was arrested if there was anything that can be potential evidence they would take it down. How did he and Sister communicate that eve? Text, call or maybe FB?

I believe the probable cause cited contact by "messenger."

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Lots of factors come into play in how scent dogs work.

I do scent training with my dogs and I find it absolutely incredible what they find and how they find it.

I have labs and golden retrievers (not yellow labs). My labs are hunting stock dogs. My goldens are hunting stock and show stock.

Without wavering I can tell you that my hunting stock golden retriever and her nose is incredible. She finds everything. She uses the wind and she is tireless. As a handler I know how to use the wind. I move her back and forth into the wind. If they are upwind they aren't going to smell anything. Depending on the cover and the conditions she won't find stuff. If its dry she will. If it's dewy it's harder.

Here's the other thing. Dogs have to keep their mouths closed to smell. If they are overworked and panting they won't be able to pick up scent. If it's really hot and they are panting, they won't pick up scent. High cover will cause them to pant and not be able to keep their mouths closed to smell. So, tired dogs that are overworked won't be able to work effectively. You need more than one dog and spell them out to find scent on this type of scale. If there weren't enough dogs to do the job then sending the same dogs out there for hours and hours will be unproductive.

There is also a difference between tracking dogs and "scent dogs". There are dogs that are trained on specific scents (i.e., cadaver dogs).

I guess I wonder at times why certain breeds of dogs are used as opposed to others. I love Shepherds and I love Malinois but - my hunting dogs work better. For tracking you are looking for the blood hounds. For scent, my money is on high drive retrievers or spaniels. These are the dogs that find stuff and won't give up if they don't.

I think it's unfair to categorize dogs as being useless. Dogs have saved many a life and found many cadavers that otherwise would not have been found.

Conditions matter. It's that simple. Wind matters, wet conditions vs. dry matters. Swirling wind, high cover, short cover, certain weeds can cause trouble too. Too much scent can be confusing.

IMO, and from experience - dogs are not useless. They provide a valuable tool in finding what humans cannot.

If I'm missing one day, I want a pack of golden retrievers looking for me.

MOO

Have you been in the Serenity thread? They’ve been looking for her for months and you just made me understand something regarding overworked dogs. The winter conditions were bad. The dogs had foot problems from the cold. Pictures of them made me think they were overworked on at least one day - which probably means that whatever ground they went over for at least part of that day needs to be gone over again.

 

[KentuckyMama]

It's interesting that according to his grandfather, Alex was five years old when his mother left him, as that is the same age as his victim when he ended her life.
I wonder how often he saw her, or if he was close to his sister and saw the kids often. It's possible that he may have done something to her before that was not appropriate. Imo

Agreed. I think I remember his lawyer yesterday saying he was just a "distant uncle". That leads me to think he wasn't around very often.

 

[oviedo]

I believe the probable cause cited contact by "messenger."

http://kslnewsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/WHIPPLE-PC.pdf
Yes, para 5 - Facebook messenger. So his burner phone must have either had the app (Messenger app can now be separate from FB app) or he had another phone. IMO

 

[kiaatcher]

It's interesting that according to his grandfather, Alex was five years old when his mother left him, as that is the same age as his victim when he ended her life.
I wonder how often he saw her, or if he was close to his sister and saw the kids often. It's possible that he may have done something to her before that was not appropriate. Imo

IMO this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. If he hadn't SA her before (and it's still not confirmed if he did that night) he must of surely had inappropriate thoughts either about killing or SA children for the last few years.
Reminds me of Jake Patterson. In the sentencing it was told that he had fantasies about abusing girls for years, but held them back. As soon as he let go of that control mentally it all went down hill, and the whole idea of killing their parents popped into his head.
It's disgusting, but I hope that they at least do mental studies on these recent men (JTP, CW, AW, etc.) to learn how these thoughts first appear and take hold in their minds.

 

[smucklecrumble]

It's interesting that according to his grandfather, Alex was five years old when his mother left him, as that is the same age as his victim when he ended her life.
I wonder how often he saw her, or if he was close to his sister and saw the kids often. It's possible that he may have done something to her before that was not appropriate. Imo

He tagged his mum in nearly every Facebook post.....im slightly confused by this. Guess he had a relationship with her as an adult...

 

[smucklecrumble]

Neighbor says he was feet away from Elizabeth Shelley's body during first search day

According to this linked article they didn’t go onto the bit of land that lizzy was later found in due to it being private property. Maybe the owner had been away they couldn’t get permission. Moo

 

[Bravo]

Dogs are amazing and we see that in many cases. They are not an exact science and therefore not admissible in Court as we know. They are a very useful tool. Sometimes a dog is as good as it's handler and vice versa. We had a Lab brought up from the South from a very high bloodline and she is a Secretariat in the field. She can find a duck nobody knew was there. She is amazing in the field and would work til she dropped. Some just are a bit better at their work than others simply due to their superior gift and a great handler.

 

[MummyRatcliffe]

I agree with you completely, especially with the BBM part.
I feel so deeply sorry for beautiful baby girl Lizzy and her family.

As you said, we all are products of our parents and, from what I´ve read, I think AW´s environment (his irresponsible mother, in a first place) had deeply and utterly failed him as a young boy.

You simply cannot raise an individual so disturbed that he is capable of such bestiality without abandoning him at a very young age, abusing him and literally failing him in every possible way.

Love is all it takes, in the beginning of a child´s life, to raise a human being capable of empathy.
Without love, the empathy is never developed, so you are raising a psychopath.
That is, in my opinion, what have happened there.

I am not condoning AW, also, but I think his family was highly dysfunctional and this horror could maybe have been prevented.

By whom, I am not so sure.

Without supportive, loving parent in the start, it takes a lot of therapists´time/ patients´money to succeed. Society maybe, parole officers... I am not so sure and, being a foreigner, I don´t know that much about US´ legal system.

But this kid was deeply depraved, his needs thoroughly unmet (when he was a kid), and years of his "empty life", as his granddad calls this, have amounted to such a horrid murder of an innocent 5- year old.

He needed to be in some correction/ prevention program years ago before his issues amounted to that degree.

It is such a horrific, bestial, unbelievable murder.
Such a terrible tragedy. I´m so, so saddened by all of this.

Agree completely!

Please note I’m not trying to say AW mother or father are to blame for this, just that I believe he became what he did in part because of his upbringing, which I’m sorry but statistics do show that when crimes are committed like this 9 times out of 10 the perpetrator has came from : a broken home/cps involvement in childhood/substance or alcohol abuse/foster homes etc. We can’t deny that this is often the case and who knows had AW been brought up with love, morals etc this might never have happened. At the very least any parent worth their salt would have seen a declining mental state and took appropriate steps to ensure their child got the help they needed whether said child agrees or not. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

He tagged his mum in nearly every Facebook post.....im slightly confused by this. Guess he had a relationship with her as an adult...

I think he had a relationship with her eventually, but she missed out on several years of his childhood when it's important to bond. According to the grandfather he spent some of those years in foster care. I wonder if the kids were kept together. I thought I read they were with their father for some of that time, too. Imo

 

[JustEve]

Okay—mark this down as yet another case of complete failure of searching with dogs. Whether it’s the dogs, the dog training, the dog handlers, or the weather—in many cases dogs are completely useless.

That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be used—they can practically work miracles sometimes. But we do have to be very careful about drawing conclusions from ‘dogs not finding anything.’

In this case he was on foot the whole way. A dog doing what we’d expect of it should have been able to lay out his entire path from the home to the first place he was seen without Lizzy. For whatever reason, that didn’t happen.

Searching dachshund (I hope I wrote it correctly) owner here- in my opinion, there were two possible problems: first, the rain, and second, they were not sure what they were searching- dead body, living victim, blood trail or just normal scent trail, and whose trail.

With dogs you have to be precise. They can follow trail perfectly and find whatever you want, but you have to command them precisely.

My boy found a burglar that robbed our apartment, cold trail after 8 days (we were out of town at the time of burglary), quickly and precisely. Also, he successfully tracked kids that got lost, but he always knows what he is tracking.

If he had to recover a dead body, he could certainly sniff it, but the problem would be how would I explain to him what he must search for- there are lots of scents around and he goes for those he had previously tracked most.

I am sorry, English is not my first language, and my vocabulary in this field is not good, but I hope you can understand what I mean.

 

[September16]

IMO this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. If he hadn't SA her before (and it's still not confirmed if he did that night) he must of surely had inappropriate thoughts either about killing or SA children for the last few years.
Reminds me of Jake Patterson. In the sentencing it was told that he had fantasies about abusing girls for years, but held them back. As soon as he let go of that control mentally it all went down hill, and the whole idea of killing their parents popped into his head.
It's disgusting, but I hope that they at least do mental studies on these recent men (JTP, CW, AW, etc.) to learn how these thoughts first appear and take hold in their minds.

Agree...there is always an escalation of violent behaviors, my opinion.

 

[Seattle1]

It doesn't matter what the name of the FB is, as long as it can be proved the account is theirs, ie from posts, friends list, links etc. Go to missing teenagers and you'll see some great examples.

I guess I don't understand why link and/or discuss a hijacked account. If I understand correctly, changes have been made since AW incarcerated -- including name, and I don't think he has computer privileges in jail. MOO

 

[JustEve]

Agree completely!

Please note I’m not trying to say AW mother or father are to blame for this, just that I believe he became what he did in part because of his upbringing, which I’m sorry but statistics do show that when crimes are committed like this 9 times out of 10 the perpetrator has came from : a broken home/cps involvement in childhood/substance or alcohol abuse/foster homes etc. We can’t deny that this is often the case and who knows had AW been brought up with love, morals etc this might never have happened. At the very least any parent worth their salt would have seen a declining mental state and took appropriate steps to ensure their child got the help they needed whether said child agrees or not. MOO

I couldn´t agree more!

 

[September16]

BBM

Re. the bolded portion : Yes, she may have had some misgivings about him already.
AW may have been bothering her for some extra cash, as well.
Probably ate what he wanted at her home, and other relatives' homes as well. That can get old fast.

A friend of mine cannot trust her adult son (21 yrs. old with substance abuse and job issues) in her home. Sounds harsh -- but it is what it is.

Not harsh. It is what it is.

 

[Bravo]

Sounds like you have a wonderful tracker JustEve. Your English is just fine.

 

[smucklecrumble]

Video: Logan child abduction suspect denied bail in first court appearance | Gephardt Daily

No reaction from him when the charges are being read.

I find it interesting that the court appointed an attorney but his current one asked to be given the case instead and the judge agreed.

 

[oviedo]

I guess I don't understand why link and/or discuss a hijacked account. If I understand correctly, changes have been made since AW incarcerated -- including name, and I don't think he has computer privileges in jail. MOO

Rules - Social Media - Facebook, Twitter, etc.
Do not link to an individual’s (victim or suspect) social media page if you are not 100% certain it belongs to the correct individual.
BBM
I guess the question is, in this particular case, is the account still his or has it been hijacked? If we are not certain it is his - we can't link IMO.

 

[pepper 34]

Yes this is the one. The link in the first threads brings up this profile. IMO I doubt LE changed his name and photos, wouldn’t they want to preserve the profile as it was to search for evidence?

He's posted a photo on his FB page. Does anyone else consider the green leaves and what appears to be the rail of a chain linked fence to be... kind of sick? Considering where little Lizzy was found, after all. Maybe I'm reading too much into it?
ETA: Okay, I see someone has commented this FB page might be created by a troll. That makes more sense. Now, I think I can get my stomach back where it belongs. What is wrong with some people (aside from the murderer, himself.)