GUILTY UT - Brian Mitchell & Wanda Barzee for kidnapping, Salt Lake City, 5 June 2002

[Love_Mama]

I agree with the posters who say things just don't seem right, but I feel I have a bit of a different perspective here also. IMO the Smart family did not have anything at all to do with Elizabeth being abducted, held captive and raped. Elisabeth was a victim and I believe she deserves our compassion. I feel some people can't understand why she did not run away when she had a chance and when asked what her name was she did not tell the truth. IMO Elizabeth was well trained from the time she was born to be subserviant to a male due to her religion. When you are married in the mormon temple you are given a different name, when she was taken and "married" with all the trauma she was going through I think she did believe then that she no longer was Elizabeth.
There is so much I see living here in Utah that does not set right with me about the Mormon religion, any day I go shopping at walmart I see so many young women/girls who have so many children, their role is to be married and begin producing much like the flds, if wacko had kidnapped a young girl who was not such a devout Mormon I doubt he would have had it work so well for him, the training Elizabeth had received that a wife is to be subserviant to her husband and do as she is told helped him greatly.

VB

Good eye opening post VB. THanks
xxxxxxxxoo
mama
:blowkiss:

 

[CarpeDiem]

I think the same thing OneLostgrl and still do.
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
xxxxxxxxxxxooooooo
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Have you read her book? Did you read the People Magazine article? Do her own words and that of the LE investigation not mean anything?

 

[OneLostGrl]

"Drama", "sexy", tabloid, "attacking" the victim and her family? Get a grip- I'm not writing a book or taking out an ad in a newspaper for God sake!

I shared MO about what I think happened to this poor child and apologized in advance to those I might have offended. Jeezee... chill out we all have a right to an opinion here, no?!

 

[CarpeDiem]

Why apologize if you are going to say such things anyway? What's the point and why should the apology then mean something?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Why apologize if you are going to say such things anyway? What's the point and why should the apology then mean something?

Because I knew not everyone would agree with me and although we may not agree with one another in regard to this issue, I respect the people here and do not wish to offend people while sharing my opinion.

However, I realize with this amount of people posting, a couple of people may end up taking offense.. that happens when so many different types of people share their differing opinions with one another like we do here at WS. I wanted the people posting here to know that I was not trying to be offensive toward them but I do have the right to share my thoughts just as everyone else does. As you see, I'm not the only one thinking this way.

CarpeDiem, I'm sorry I have angered you so, that was not my intent.:blowkiss:

 

[pedinurse]

the family said mitchell not only tried to abduct her younger sister but a cousin as well. so he was really out for that smart family, huh?

hum.
never did think about the fact that she was gone for exactly 9 months. the recovery of a child abducted by a complete stranger is completely - well practically unheard of.

i never had even heard about this stuff until it came up on this thread, but it is VERY intriguing. i am all about stringing up those perps from their toenails for a good old utah style floggin (or whatever they do in utah) but um, it is interesting.

 

[CarpeDiem]

I feel badly for her that these things are being said/insinuated about her. Some crazy stuff was put out there about her Dad and Uncles too during the months she was gone. I just find it unconscionable the stuff people will throw out there, with absolutely no factual basis.

 

[pedinurse]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=13839
THURSDAY, MARCH 27
Nothing diverts the mind away from the horrors of humanity like a good, spicy conspiracy theory. So thank God for Autumn Sakai, who today sent Last Days the juiciest conspiracy theory we've ever encountered outside a Holy Bible. "As my coworkers and I sat around discussing the massive wrongness of the whole Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, the potential truth dawned on me in a blaze of Mormonity," writes Autumn. "It's no secret that Elizabeth Smart's father has bandied about plans to enter politics. [Suppose] young Elizabeth, thought to be the picture of what a Mormon girl should be, got pregnant. Ed Smart knows that nothing hurts a campaign more than a pregnant 14-year-old Mormon, so in a stroke of brilliance, he arranges a 'kidnap.' Not only will he get Elizabeth out of the public eye, he'll win TONS of publicity and sympathy votes. Elizabeth disappears but is kept fairly close to home for the majority of her nine-month (!) ordeal. Her burgeoning pregnancy is hidden beneath burqa-like clothing. When the time comes for her to deliver, she's taken to San Diego, where chances of her recognition are far less likely than in Salt Lake City. She recovers for a month or two, then miracle of miracles, she's returned to the loving arms of her family. Photos show her with a rounder face and a glow typically associated with maternal hormones. Her dad said it himself: 'She left us a young lady and returned a woman.'" Last Days thanks Autumn for her deeply cynical, deeply engrossing conspiracy theory. We promise to comment on it at length in next week's column.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have to say that when I had seen her, after her return, I thought... that girl just had a baby. She had this pink, round face and she was just generally round all over. I wondered if she had given birth or was pregnant when she was found. If you notice, she has thinned back out. I really did... just being honest.

 

[SeekingJana]

Why apologize if you are going to say such things anyway? What's the point and why should the apology then mean something?

As I understand it, it's OK to discuss alternative theories related to crimes or reports of crimes.
I want to state that I definitely believe that Elizabeth Smart was a child who was hurt by whatever happened to her. She was neither the mastermind nor the puppet. She was definitely put into difficult circumstances.
Now that Elizabeth is an adult, she has put herself back in the spotlight with the People Magazine article. As I understand it, she IS currently a public figure by doing so voluntarily. The way I learned the law is that a person who is a public figure by their own doing, as she is now, can be discussed with respect.
What has been said here on WS and across the country by various very intelligent people is that there are some doubts that Elizabeth Smart's kidnapping occurred in the way the family told it. And retold it while she was missing. And changed it- while she was missing. And went on LKL and talked about " what a blessing" her being missing was " to the family" at the time she was still missing. Her uncle said some extremely bizarre things which I can look up if I can find them. ( I am not too good at that sort of thing, but my friend can quote everything he said and remembers everything he did). He finally was " excused" from some of the mega- family TV interviews everywhere because Uncle Tom ran his mouth and said some things which didn't go along with what the family as a whole were saying. Some people believe that Uncle Tom had some very strong reasons of his very own for wanting Richard Ricci locked up and quieted.
Mary Katherine got a new puppy, Elizabeth's bedroom got a makeover while she was gone, I believe, and one of the first things Elizabeth's mom said was how much she had grown while she was missing and that they were going shopping for all new clothes. How many plump kidnapping victims do we ever see? I believe she was fed well while she was gone, but not necessarily by Mitchell and Barzee. Then, Uncle Tom whipped out his camera and poor Elizabeth had to play the harp for them. Her unhappiness is great in the coming home gala photos. The family used her missing status and they used her homecoming, in my opinion, and that's wrong, again in my opinion.

Whether you and others think it's right or wrong, there are people who believe that Elizabeth's disappearance had an entirely different course than what was told to the public. I don't think they are the type of people who are conspiracy theorists or who see aliens, but who are simply free-thinking people who question not the Stockholm Syndrome phenomenon, but the actions and words of the adult members of the Smart family while Elizabeth was missing and afterwards. Who question how a sketch said to be Richard Ricci and which ultimately led to his death in jail morphed into Mitchell.
Who question how the abductor got into the girl's bedroom based upon the house's layout. Who question how Elizabeth could go to the bathroom right by her parents door with the polite kidnapper in the golf hat right there in the room with her little sister and not run into her parent's arms for safety, or to protect little Mary Katherine. Who question many aspects of the kidnapping and the extensive route the trio took, according to the Smart family, with two of them being severely mentally ill and one being a young girl.
They ended up in Temple Square but they went many places and some of the photos have been published, as you know.

I was asked to state what my friend believes, but I don't know all of the fine points. She has very well thought out ideas of what happened which all makes total sense and the entire theory explains the almost unbelievable statements made by Elizabeth's relatives when she was missing.
In the opinion of everyone I have ever discussed this case with, now and in the past, everyone believes that Elizabeth and Mary Katherine were harmed emotionally. A child is not culpable for the actions of the adults around them.

The strangest thing for me were the family's statements that Elizabeth didn't need therapy after she returned home, then told us in rather explicit detail what they believe was done to her sexually, although Elizabeth didn't talk about it, they said. How long was she home before Tom was photographing her- less than 24 hours. How long was it before Ed did some things which could be viewed as capitalizing upon her situation and the case being in the limelight once she returned? I believe she was home less than 2 weeks before she was in the White House with the cameras flashing once again. That's no crime, but it certainly is off kilter.
The entire case is way out there, largely because of the conflicting statements and unusual actions by the huge group of adult family members while Elizabeth was missing, and to some degree, by her father after she was home.

I can say that I am sorry that you don't like or appreciate the discussion when it varies from what you believe and not apologize for having my own unanswered questions about the time that Elizabeth Smart was missing. I always have questioned many things the parents and relatives blurted out here and there. They sometimes gave the impression that they knew quite a bit more than they said. Also, it bothered me that Mary Katherine was not shielded from the public by the family. The alledged kidnapper was in the room with her, too. She alledgedly saw him well enough to help create an artist sketch, and name 2 men. But there she was, right beside Elizabeth. The only other family I know of who failed to protect another child who was smack dab in the middle of a crime scene were the Ramseys, with their survivng 9 year old son, Burke. Some of us don't think they were telling the whole story, either. That doesn't make us monsters.

 

[SeekingJana]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=13839
THURSDAY, MARCH 27
Nothing diverts the mind away from the horrors of humanity like a good, spicy conspiracy theory. So thank God for Autumn Sakai, who today sent Last Days the juiciest conspiracy theory we've ever encountered outside a Holy Bible. "As my coworkers and I sat around discussing the massive wrongness of the whole Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, the potential truth dawned on me in a blaze of Mormonity," writes Autumn. "It's no secret that Elizabeth Smart's father has bandied about plans to enter politics. [Suppose] young Elizabeth, thought to be the picture of what a Mormon girl should be, got pregnant. Ed Smart knows that nothing hurts a campaign more than a pregnant 14-year-old Mormon, so in a stroke of brilliance, he arranges a 'kidnap.' Not only will he get Elizabeth out of the public eye, he'll win TONS of publicity and sympathy votes. Elizabeth disappears but is kept fairly close to home for the majority of her nine-month (!) ordeal. Her burgeoning pregnancy is hidden beneath burqa-like clothing. When the time comes for her to deliver, she's taken to San Diego, where chances of her recognition are far less likely than in Salt Lake City. She recovers for a month or two, then miracle of miracles, she's returned to the loving arms of her family. Photos show her with a rounder face and a glow typically associated with maternal hormones. Her dad said it himself: 'She left us a young lady and returned a woman.'" Last Days thanks Autumn for her deeply cynical, deeply engrossing conspiracy theory. We promise to comment on it at length in next week's column.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have to say that when I had seen her, after her return, I thought... that girl just had a baby. She had this pink, round face and she was just generally round all over. I wondered if she had given birth or was pregnant when she was found. If you notice, she has thinned back out. I really did... just being honest.

Pedinurse, absolutely, your thoughts were not solitary thoughts. I thought the same thing instinctively, then felt so horrible about it. Then I found out that others were thinking the same things. She had outgrown all her clothes when she returned despite supposedly being with indigent mentally ill people for 9 months.

I could still wear my teeny Junior House Jr High graduation dress until I hit 40 and had had 2 children. I was 12 when I graduated Jr High... The little dress is probably a modern size 3.
I know we are all different, just sayin'.
Maria

 

[CarpeDiem]

Not that the truth will matter, but here's some info and more at link:

"David Smart, Elizabeth's uncle, told reporters that a doctor had examined her and that she was not pregnant and never had been pregnant. But the family refused to answer any questions about sexual assault."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/elizabeth_smart/10.html


"Salt Lake City investigators arrived, and they continued the questioning. At one point they showed her a missing-person poster with a photograph of herself. Her face was thinner in the photo, and her arms and shoulders weren't as developed. Hiking through the mountains, hauling a backpack had built up her muscles. She stared at the picture, tears brimming in her eyes."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/elizabeth_smart/9.html

 

[OneLostGrl]

I feel badly for her that these things are being said/insinuated about her. Some crazy stuff was put out there about her Dad and Uncles too during the months she was gone. I just find it unconscionable the stuff people will throw out there, with absolutely no factual basis.

I never said anything about Elizabeth. She was a victim no matter what happened!

 

[Moab]

I think the same thing OneLostgrl and still do.
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
xxxxxxxxxxxooooooo
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Why would anyone continue to believe an untruth?

 

[golfmom]

Why would anyone continue to believe an untruth?

My point is that I don't think we do know the truth in this case and I doubt it will ever be told.

 

[deanws]

Why would anyone continue to believe an untruth?

You nor I, nor anyone else know the whole truth except Elizabeth, and SHE might not be telling the whole truth either. She was a child and should not be accountable for what the adults in her life made her do. I also believe that the truth is not being told. IMO..I think she shouldn't have opened up this can of worms again. I wonder how much People paid her to do the story. I do think she has grown into a beautiful young woman and I wish her the best in life.

 

[deanws]

My point is that I don't think we do know the truth in this case and I doubt it will ever be told.

LOL...great minds think alike. I was working on my post at the same time you wrote and posted yours!

 

[golfmom]

:waitasec: I don't understand your reference to slap across the face. Why do you feel that post was a slap across her face?

 

[Moab]

You nor I, nor anyone else know the whole truth except Elizabeth, and SHE might not be telling the whole truth either. She was a child and should not be accountable for what the adults in her life made her do. I also believe that the truth is not being told. IMO..I think she shouldn't have opened up this can of worms again. I wonder how much People paid her to do the story. I do think she has grown into a beautiful young woman and I wish her the best in life.

People magazine is undoubtedly doing the story because of all the advocacy work Elizabeth has done in the five years that she has been back. She does a lot of public speaking addressing crimes against children, she and her father both helped Adam Walsh publicize the Adam Walsh Child Protection Act which was signed into law by President Bush in July of 2006. Hardly acts of a person guilty of anything other than being a victim.

 

[pedinurse]

What a croc - wish her the best in life, while ya slap her across the face?

wow, you're being very inflammatory and mean towards our posters.


I don't see that any of our posters were being mean / hurtful towards ES.

 

[pedinurse]

CrossingJana - GREAT post!!! awesome! thank you! i think that you explained in a really simple, clear way to all of our posters. and you gave us some great information that we didn't have.
DeanWS - I totally agree with your post.

I just wanted to add... did a DR ever come out and say she was OK and had no signs of pregnancy? or just the uncle? because i wouldn't believe anything that comes out of his mouth - i remember some of his consistencies back from when the case was going on.
and what family refuses to get mental health help for their daughter who has just been through a 9 month ordeal with homeless people who sexually abused her. HELLO. you can't claim stockholm syndrome then say "she doesn't need counseling" - i mean, she is a child, and counselors help children deal with grief and trauma by helping them find coping skills and by allowing them to deal with their issues. this girl will be an internal mess if she doesn't get some real help.

AND - while i could see the muscle argument for other parts of her body because she was so much bigger, often people who are building muscle mass will loose weight - not gain it and become rounder - in the face. the face will become slender, while the arms and legs do not. WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT FROM MEN in the way they build muscle mass. just saying. AND - homeless / indigent people don't generally eat that well, and meals are generally hard to come by. even soup / homeless shelters often only have meals once or twice a day - so I have to agree with the previous poster here who pointed out this inconsistency!! if she was burning this much energy (hiking as one poster suggested) with inconsistent food sources, i would expect her to be perhaps taller (ie - growth spurt for age?) but not - quite so round.