GUILTY UT - Brian Mitchell & Wanda Barzee for kidnapping, Salt Lake City, 5 June 2002

[deanws]

i thought the same thing deanws... they all look just alike!

They do have STRONG family traits. I wish I had hair like them.

 

[Moab]

They do have STRONG family traits. I wish I had hair like them.

And they all have gorgeous eyes too!

 

[Moab]

She and the family have had counseling.

I need to correct this to read...She and the family have not had counseling. (I should re-read my posts before I submit the reply.) Mea Culpa! :bang:

 

[reefshadow]

Amazing that a kidnapping survivor with Stockholm Syndrome had no counseling and was able to stand up to Nancy Grace like that. I *never* have liked NG after I saw that, I think she's a witch.

The pregnancy theory is interesting but implausible IMO. Re the weight issue, if she was pregnant and not eating as she should, she would not have looked "plump" and had that "pregnancy glow". She would have been malnourished and haggard... unless the pregnancy theorists are speculating that they were never really traveling around while she was "kidnapped"? But what would have happened to the baby? I'm no fan of the LDS but I do know they would be VERY unlikely to adopt out a viable addition to the church. Teenage pregnancy is nothing new to them.

Anyway... I think something is very strange here in terms of them being declared legally insane, I think it's total BS. If there is any "conspiracy" I think it may center around the family leaning on the local LE to keep this thing quiet (IE; not have a trial). These people were sane enough to construct a very good hiding place, navigate the streets for food and money, and keep a pretty low profile. I think it's a damn cheat and a shame that they aren't being held accountable for their actions, and also very *dangerous* because rules for release from a MH facility are so much more lax than in prison. So what if they're yelling and acting out in court- it wouldn't be the first time an attorney had to speak for a deranged client, and any previous statements they made and evidence gathered could be used to convict them without their direct testimony.

I say take them to trial!

 

[Moab]

Amazing that a kidnapping survivor with Stockholm Syndrome had no counseling and was able to stand up to Nancy Grace like that. I *never* have liked NG after I saw that, I think she's a witch.

I agree to an extent about NG. I like her because she is so passionate, and I dislike her when she either has her facts wrong, or when she attempts going outside the scope of what she has agreed to do for the sake of sensationalism.

I don't think anyone believed it wouldn't take a great deal of counseling for Elizabeth to become a survivor of this kidnapping, but sometimes kids just surprise us with their maturity on issues. By allowing Mitchell and Barzee to "keep the power', I believe Elizabeth would have remained a victim for many years to come. Instead, she took the power away from them and empowered herself - and that makes her move from victim to a survivor who is totally in control of herself and her future.

Mitchell, in his quest for a second wife through polygamy, controlled her while in captivity. Elizabeth's resolve to take the power back, once he was jailed and she knew her family was safe and would remain safe because the "threat" had been incarcerated, minimized Mitchell's importance in her life. In doing this, he and his actions became inconsequential and I believe it turned the tide for her, and allowed her to move forward at a much faster pace than the rest of us believed could happen.

Had she gone on with the "I'm a victim" and "poor me", I don't believe she would be where she is today in her recovery.

The pregnancy theory is interesting but implausible IMO. Re the weight issue, if she was pregnant and not eating as she should, she would not have looked "plump" and had that "pregnancy glow". She would have been malnourished and haggard... unless the pregnancy theorists are speculating that they were never really traveling around while she was "kidnapped"? But what would have happened to the baby? I'm no fan of the LDS but I do know they would be VERY unlikely to adopt out a viable addition to the church. Teenage pregnancy is nothing new to them.

The LDS church, whether people fundamentally agree with the religion or their practices, is one that takes care of their own. They have homes for unwed mothers, they have their own private adoption centers, etc. There is no reason anyone would have had to play out a "kidnapping" story for a teen pregnancy. When all this happened, neither she nor her family were "household words" - the family could have taken care of it and no one would have ever known who Elizabeth Smart was. The family who does have some prominent members, were not in the forefront of news stories all the time, there was certainly no reason to fabricate anything. They were known in their business circles and social circles and at church, but so are many people who we don't hear about in the news on a daily basis.

Anyway... I think something is very strange here in terms of them being declared legally insane, I think it's total BS. If there is any "conspiracy" I think it may center around the family leaning on the local LE to keep this thing quiet (IE; not have a trial).

This is the heart of the issue right here reefshadow, and I certainly agree with you that Mitchell and Barzee are not legally insane - however they were not declared that. They were declared not mentally competent to stand trial, as opposed to legally insane. Utah has some very antiquated and odd (for lack of a better word) insanity and mental illness terminology. It is almost impossible to win an insanity defense in a Utah courtroom, so it is really seldom used - however "competency" issues are raised often.

I agree with you also that the family, at first, didn't want Elizabeth to have to testify - but we have to remember she was 15 at the time. I wouldn't have wanted my child to have to testify in explicit detail in a courtroom of strangers either, nor do I suspect would many parents. Ed was adamant about that in the first weeks after Elizabeth's return, but has mellowed on that issue as Elizabeth has aged to 20 and has taken control of her life.

These people were sane enough to construct a very good hiding place, navigate the streets for food and money, and keep a pretty low profile. I think it's a damn cheat and a shame that they aren't being held accountable for their actions, and also very *dangerous* because rules for release from a MH facility are so much more lax than in prison.

I totally agree with you here, and what I see is these two playing the system. I think Judge Atherton has been careful, almost to a fault, in her treatment of all of the court proceedings, but she has in effect, left nothing to chance that would be challenged on appeal either, which I believe was her intent - even as frustrating as the slowness of justice has been. Barzee was hoping her "time limit" would be exhausted, evidenced by her "tick tock" comment one time. It was made crystal clear at that time the judge could issue a "civil commitment" if that happened, and I believe Judge Atherton would have imposed that in a heart beat to avoid Barzee being allowed back into society.

So what if they're yelling and acting out in court- it wouldn't be the first time an attorney had to speak for a deranged client, and any previous statements they made and evidence gathered could be used to convict them without their direct testimony.

This is very irritating to me. It seems in any other courtroom, yelling and screaming or singing would be a contempt charge against Mitchell and/or the attorney if he could not control his client. Again, I believe all of the latitude being given here is so as to not create anything for an appeal. At some point in time though, justice needs to preempt the assumption of appeal, and they need to get on with it. Mitchell is being allowed to make a mockery of the justice system.

I say take them to trial!

Me too!

 

[GlitchWizard]

"These people were sane enough to construct a very good hiding place, navigate the streets for food and money, and keep a pretty low profile."


The skills above are survival skills, and pretty common among the homeless with a wide variety of insane traits.

 

[EmMomma]

*snipped*
Defense attorneys for the mentally incompetent man charged with kidnapping Elizabeth Smart have asked the court to dismiss his case, contending he is suffering unnecessary anxiety over a criminal trial that is unlikely to be held.

WHEN will we hold people accountable for their atrocities, ESPECIALLY those involving children?! :furious:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/elizabeth_smart_mitchell

 

[JaneInOz]

*snipped*
Defense attorneys for the mentally incompetent man charged with kidnapping Elizabeth Smart have asked the court to dismiss his case, contending he is suffering unnecessary anxiety over a criminal trial that is unlikely to be held.

WHEN will we hold people accountable for their atrocities, ESPECIALLY those involving children?! :furious:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/elizabeth_smart_mitchell

Hey EmMomma, Im not 100% up with this case, but if he is incompetent to stand trial then he is locked up anyway in a pysch place right ?

Im off to google it now to see what this case is about.

BUT I do agree that far too many people get away with their horrors

 

[JaneInOz]

Oh and why dont they cut his hair and beard ! Does he think he is Jesus or something ?

 

[capps]

He just might Jane...

 

[JaneInOz]

Oh ok here is another article re the same thing you were talking about

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_11209455?source=rss

and yeah a self proclaimed prophet

YEAH RIGHT. This guy just wanted more wives to fulfill his sexual pleasure BLAH
Insane my A$$
Lock him up and throw away the key , or better yet chop off his nuts and let him go !

 

[EmMomma]

I don't get the "incompetent to stand trial" thing. Half these people don't even take the stand...so, what, they have to sit there and listen to people talk about the horrors they committed? Puh-lease. Cry me a river.

 

[Alaska4959]

Wanna bet he normals up real quick if they drop the charges?

 

[wildTrose]

He is suffering because there might be a trial???? so get the trial over with because Lord knows we dont want him to "suffer" as Elisabeth did
This man was competent enough to kidnap a young girl from her home and keep her captive for 9 months...thats pretty competent to me!!

 

[RiverRat]

Well, I certainly now have unnecessary anxiety after hearing this! :furious:

 

[Mr. E]

If he was competent enough to kidnap Elizabeth Smart from her bedroom, hide her for nine months, and brainwash her so she wouldn't try to escape, he competent enough to stand before a jury of his peers and answer to his actions.

 

[MrsG728]

Wanna bet he normals up real quick if they drop the charges?

:clap: yup. I agree 100%

 

[fran]

If he was competent enough to kidnap Elizabeth Smart from her bedroom, hide her for nine months, and brainwash her so she wouldn't try to escape, he competent enough to stand before a jury of his peers and answer to his actions.

I totally AGREE!

fran

 

[Marthatex]

If he was competent enough to kidnap Elizabeth Smart from her bedroom, hide her for nine months, and brainwash her so she wouldn't try to escape, he competent enough to stand before a jury of his peers and answer to his actions.

That's exactly what I was going to say. He is quite competent within his own strange belief system.

But whether prison itself would do him any good; I don't know. Do some offer BOTH incarceration and mental health treatment? If he abused her, which I assume he did, he needs to be locked up for a good while; AND treated, if possible IMO.

I don't know that much about this case, but just a little reading, so I really have no idea what we should do with people who think they are somehow serving their "God" by doing bad things. What happened to the Jeffs fellow, and the people of that weird Texas cult? It's gotten really quiet.

 

[Marthatex]

A little OT - but the man who did that Georgia rampage and killed four people has been sentenced to life.

He tried to claim "insanity"; that he imagined he was a "slave" attacking his "master".

Is everyone who commits a murder "temporarily insane"? And then you get into all those nuances.....I'm glad I'm not an attorney or a judge.