UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

[TGIRecovered]

One lucky blow with a snow shovel can permanantly maim or kill a person. If the cop used a taser and it didn't properly connect with both barbs the criminal wouldn't stop and wait for him to drop the taser and draw his gun. Any moron knows not to attack a person. Any moron knows to do what a cop says and never resist arrest. Any moron who choses to be a danger to anyone else deserves what he gets when someone....anyone, including a cop, is fortunate enough to be able to stop them immediately in order to protect their own life and the lives of others with whatever force is available. Still, we have people who criticize very move cops make. There is something very wrong when the life of the attacker is worth more to the general public than the life of the cops who protect them.

People need to get a clue and be grateful that a cop was there to take care of business. MOO

 

[sonjay]

One lucky blow with a snow shovel can permanantly maim or kill a person. If the cop used a taser and it didn't properly connect with both barbs the criminal wouldn't stop and wait for him to drop the taser and draw his gun. Any moron knows not to attack a person. Any moron knows to do what a cop says and never resist arrest. Any moron who choses to be a danger to anyone else deserves what he gets when someone....anyone, including a cop, is fortunate enough to be able to stop them immediately in order to protect their own life and the lives of others with whatever force is available. Still, we have people who criticize very move cops make. There is something very wrong when the life of the attacker is worth more to the general public than the life of the cops who protect them.

People need to get a clue and be grateful that a cop was there to take care of business. MOO

This was in January? In Utah?

"very thick clothing like heavy winter jackets can prevent the transfer of the incapacitating electrical energy."

https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Conten...b79be0b/Anderson,-joe-Research-paper-pdf.aspx

An actual case of this happening:

Winter Clothing Blocks Fargo police Taser
http://www.jamestownsun.com/content/winter-clothing-blocks-fargo-police-taser

The guy was clearly dangerous. He attacked a police officer. He was wearing winter clothing that may have rendered a Taser ineffective. Once the cop was down, he had to stop the attack right now or we might be reading about another police killing.

I agree that there's something very wrong when the attackers are considered worth more than those who deliberately go into harm's way every day to protect people.

 

[Woodland]

Unable to see where a poster or an MSM article is saying an attackers life is worth more than LE or anyone else. Hopefully this interpretation will not become the prevailing thought. Jmo.

 

[tlcya]

respectfully snipped from sonjay's above

This was in January? In Utah?

"very thick clothing like heavy winter jackets can prevent the transfer of the incapacitating electrical energy."

https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content...paper-pdf.aspx

An actual case of this happening:

Winter Clothing Blocks Fargo police Taser
http://www.jamestownsun.com/content/...o-police-taser

Thank you for pulling this info. I agree that taser was not a good option. LEO are weighing lots of information, their training, their knowledge of the tools given them to effectively perform their duties while still living to return home at teh end of shift.

I am not prepared to second guess his decision to use lethal force based on what we the public know thus far.

 

[jjenny]

LE maiming/killing those with a mental illness is part of the long term problem and current retaliation, imo.

Needs to stop. If I chose to confront someone with a shovel, I would not get close enough to get hit with it. I'm not a trained officer but do possess common sense.

Well, you aren't in charge of protecting the public, are you?
I am amazed at the suggestions police officers should be walking away from suspects as to not upset those suspects.

 

[jjenny]

The man shouldn't have attacked the policeman with a shovel but I'm not sure that the policeman needed deadly force to stop the man. It's hard to believe that the officer couldn't have disarmed the man without killing him. More detail needs to be told to know if the shooting was justified.

If somebody was hitting you with a shovel you would have a right to protect yourself with deadly force to prevent bodily injuries. Are you suggesting police should have less rights than you are?

 

[Woodland]

Well, you aren't in charge of protecting the public, are you?
I am amazed at the suggestions police officers should be walking away from suspects as to not upset those suspects.

No one is suggesting LE should be walking away from suspects - not in any posts that I can read here anyway. Trying to defuse a situation, from a distance, as a start, might work from time to time. If/when that doesn't work, then a change in tactic would be warranted. Jmo.

 

[tlcya]

I notice in the videos that there is no snow on the ground [ETA or more accurately very little areas of mostly melted snow that do not appear to be on sidewalks]. Some articles do state that there were areas of ice. IME shovels are very ineffective against ice. I understand why some residents found his behaviors and approaches of their homes asking to shovel for money suspicious.

There is recent trend IMO, due to other highly publicized cases, of citizens feeling as if LE has no right to approach them and inquire about their suspicious seeming behaviors. Mr. Baker was apparently well regarded by his friends and neighbors and is said by them to be just a regular helpful nice guy. The video I saw of him screaming at the officer are suggestive that he felt this way.

It is sad to me that citizens in general have this idea that LE should be out there doing more important stuff than bothering them, even when their own activity has caused other citizens to report them as suspicious and possibly up to no good. Lately it seems that people want LE to do their job, until their job is to question that very person and then LE are wasting tax dollars, harassing innocent citizens, profiling, etc.

Protect me. but do not dare question my actions. Even if my fellow citizens have reported I am behaving in a concerning manner.

I am so thankful for those who decide on a career in law enforcement. I have a nephew who will be graduating HS soon. He is determined to do just that. I fear for him in light of the mistrust and lack of respect American citizens show to officers nowadays. I could never and would never pursue such a career. Low pay, high responsibility and no matter what at the end of the day you will be hated. Nope - not enough money in the world.

I feel horribly for Mr. Bakers friends and loved ones. I do not question the officer's actions.

 

[jjenny]

No one is suggesting LE should be walking away from suspects - not in any posts that I can read here anyway. Trying to defuse a situation, from a distance, as a start, might work from time to time. If/when that doesn't work, then a change in tactic would be warranted. Jmo.

What was the situation? The guy appeared calm at first. Police officer was trying to get him to show him the paper work, when the guy became agitated. Police officer was supposed to know this guy was going to hit him with a shovel?

 

[Woodland]

The situation, imo, is the LE/Citizens relationship deterioration over the last 2 or 3 decades.

 

[TrackerSam]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33042457&nid=960&fm=home_page&s_cid=toppick3 dtd today, article & 3 min vid.
Raw vid from LEO body (audio starts ~ 20sec. in)
starts w LEO parking car and approaching porch, where man stands w shovel, then interaction
until man pulls shovel back, swings it at LEO and nails him. Ccam goes wild for a few sec, then aud & vid stop.
Looks like, imo, LEO got knocked down to concrete porch floor, or went flying azz-over-teakettle down those concrete steps, or both.

Did "cop need to get close enough to be hit with a shovel or any other weapon?" IDK.
Should LEO have stopped at curb or sidewalk, forcing communication by yelling at each other? IDK
What does training instruct? IDK
I wonder if there's more vid from area homes or if neighbors saw and can describe aftermath.

Sad all the way around. JM2cts.

The video shows scant snow on the ground, certainly not enough to pay someone to shovel it, which caused a suspicious neighbor to call LE.
This man's agitated behavior could suggest a mental problem or drug use. Yeah, it's a snow shovel, but a snow shovel to the eye would end the officer's career. I know he wasn't hit in the eye but I don't know that he wasn't still swinging it when the camera broke.
When the police are called they have to respond. Due to the small amount of snow on the ground, I don't believe he was just trying to make a living, or maybe I've been watching too much ID TV.

 

[Elley Mae]

The situation, imo, is the LE/Citizens relationship deterioration over the last 2 or 3 decades.

Unlawful Citizens or Lawful Citizens? As a law abiding Citizen I have no problem with LE, but I am sure there are unlawful citizens that don't have the same attitude. jmo

 

[Woodland]

And unlawful LE or lawful LE? I think it's all 4. Jmo.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The situation, imo, is the LE/Citizens relationship deterioration over the last 2 or 3 decades.

If a citizen would have ask him the same questions and got attacked, then what?

The guy clearly had out of control anger issues that he could have directed toward anyone. Police are called to come and assist, so that that citizens are safe. That many times, puts officers on the receiving end of the anger and violence.

I see nothing here that indicates that his outburst of anger and violence was a result of a "deterioration" in some sort of "relationship" between this guy and the officer.

I see someone out that was trying to shovel snow and there is no snow. This could indicate a mental health issues, a substance abuse issue or someone that was desperate for money for one reason or another.

There are various contributing factors for why we have people in our society that commit violent acts. Some of those reasons may be mental health related, lack of respect and boundaries and psychopaths that don't have any regard for other the lives of other human beings. That mans anger was clearly out of control, most likely because he had not dealt with his own problems in a healthy way. He reflected his anger on someone else.

I do not understand why there are those that want to wad all this up into a ball and blame it on a failed relationship with law enforcement.

This could have easily been a attack on a citizen unable to protect themselves, had law enforcement not responded to the scene.

 

[MsFacetious]

Just wanted to note there is a reason there was almost no snow.
It was extremely warm that day - t-shirt weather for many people who've lived here a while.
It was 50 or so... which for January is extremely warm. :twocents:

 

[Woodland]

I see nothing here that indicates that his outburst of anger and violence was a result of a "deterioration" in some sort of "relationship" between this guy and the officer.

The post you are referencing does not say anything about a prior relationship between this officer and the person with the shovel. The interpretation is incorrect.

 

[al66pine]

The situation, imo, is the LE/Citizens relationship deterioration over the last 2 or 3 decades.

bbm

^Agreed^ re general social environment.

But as to this encounter, 'relationship' between this LEOand this member of the public, deteriorated in a matter of 2 minutes.
The instant man swung shovel, (StLC) PD use of force policy applied to LEO's actions.
JM2cts.

 

[jjenny]

...
This could have easily been a attack on a citizen unable to protect themselves, had law enforcement not responded to the scene.

Exactly. The guy became very agitated after some simple questioning, and if some civilian asked him to leave, the same thing could have happened.
And if that guy beat up some citizen with a shovel, after police were called but didn't do anything, people would be screaming police don't do their jobs.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The post you are referencing does not say anything about a prior relationship between this officer and the person with the shovel. The interpretation is incorrect.

Ok then...there is nothing here that indicates that his anger and violence is the result of some kind of "deterioriation" in a "relationship" with any LE at all.

He obviously had deep rooted issues for him to act out in a violent way towards another human being. He made a bad decision and lost his life for his bad decision. It is sad that he didn't get help for his problems and it ended this way.

Adults are responsible for seeking help for their problems or taking steps to change their behavior. A lot of adults choose not to seek help or refuse help when it is offered.

This entire forum is filled with examples of individuals who for whatever reason, chose to commit violent acts against other human beings.

Citizens and LE, will always have the right to protect themselves from bodily harm, from those that commit acts of violence against them.

It's easy to sit back and say that a person being attacked should have done this, that or another. It's an entire different situation, when you (speaking in general) are being attacked and have a mere second to protect yourself or another from potential death or serious bodily injury. There is no time to "contemplate" what may or may not happen. The threat has to be taken seriously and dealt with swiftly.

 

[katydid23]

The situation, imo, is the LE/Citizens relationship deterioration over the last 2 or 3 decades.

A lot of the deterioration can be laid on the laps of the public. With the extreme explosion of crazy-making drugs, and with gang infestation, a cop has no idea what he is up against in a routine traffic stop. It becomes a vicious cycle. He never knows when someone is going to pull out a weapon so a cop will ask for compliance and then the citizen bristles and it gets tense.

But I don't think we can expect anyone to do the job of law enforcement if they are not given certain latitudes to defend themselves. If a cop is being hit repeatedly with a shovel, he/she has every right to pull a weapon in defense. Why make excuses for the person attacking without provocation? I don't understand that at all.