UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

[katydid23]

No one is suggesting LE should be walking away from suspects - not in any posts that I can read here anyway. Trying to defuse a situation, from a distance, as a start, might work from time to time. If/when that doesn't work, then a change in tactic would be warranted. Jmo.

If the cop had stopped 'from a distance' and yelled his directives at the man, I think some would have blamed the officer for that decision. ' Why stay so far away--how disrespectful--no wonder the man flipped out...'etc

If he had yelled from a distance it would have likely aggravated the situation, not calmed it. jmo

And there was nothing to 'defuse' at the beginning. It was just a man asking for $ for shoveling snow, and the cop wanting his paperwork. That is pretty routine stuff.

It concerns me the way society second guesses everything LE does lately. They get physically attacked, and then people attack them verbally and blame them for being attacked. What about the man with the shovel who hit the cop several times in the face and head? Any accountability there? Or is it the cop's fault for standing too close?

 

[Woodland]

But I don't think we can expect anyone to do the job of law enforcement if they are not given certain latitudes to defend themselves. If a cop is being hit repeatedly with a shovel, he/she has every right to pull a weapon in defense. Why make excuses for the person attacking without provocation? I don't understand that at all.

The quote you are referencing does not state or suggest LE should not defend themselves when attacked.

 

[Woodland]

If the cop had stopped 'from a distance' and yelled his directives at the man, I think some would have blamed the officer for that decision. ' Why stay so far away--how disrespectful--no wonder the man flipped out...'etc

If he had yelled from a distance it would have likely aggravated the situation, not calmed it. jmo

And there was nothing to 'defuse' at the beginning. It was just a man asking for $ for shoveling snow, and the cop wanting his paperwork. That is pretty routine stuff.

It concerns me the way society second guesses everything LE does lately. They get physically attacked, and then people attack them verbally and blame them for being attacked. What about the man with the shovel who hit the cop several times in the face and head? Any accountability there? Or is it the cop's fault for standing too close?

Again, the quote you are referencing does not state or suggest the comments you have added to it.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Well I guess that just goes to show you that no matter how nice someone appears to be, never say never. This guy was clearly a threat to anyone who crossed his path at the time he chose to use that shovel as a weapon. Dennis Rader, the BTK killer was reportedly the nicest most laid back helpful man you would ever have as a neighbor, yet he thought nothing of murdering when the mood struck him.

It it is a very dangerous misconception that a person is not capable of murderous violence if one has had a lifetime of pleasant experiences with that person. It happens. Read the news. Cold blooded killers, gang members, child abusers and rapists have family, friends and neighbors who will swear he is a walking talking sweetheart. When someone becomes violent, it would be stupid to err on the side of protecting the poor attacker rather than stopping him in his tracks. If a cop or anyone else who is faced with a person who is ready to assault them hesitates the few seconds it takes choose to risk their life by using less than deadly force in order to avoid killing that attacker, that hesitation is likely to result in their own death or the death of another innocent person. This cop did absolutely the right thing. MOO

 

[TGIRecovered]

I agree with you Woodland, that there has been a deterioration between LE and some citizens.

You are right about the deterioration. It is a deterioration of common sense, a deterioration of respect for other people and their possessions, a deterioration of real parenthood and sensible leadership.

It s a deterioration of the level of responsibility for one's own behavior and a deterioration of common decency. It breeds hate for fellow human beings who don't buy in to the hate speech. It demands rebellion against those who protect everyone by upholding the law, educators who very often take better care of our nations children than their own families do, business owners who employ us and provide necessary goods and services and fellow citizens who have to try to live among those who choose to put innocent lives in danger. This deterioration breeds people who will hold a sign , block streets, riot, burn, loot and assault, all on the urging of someone who cares nothing about facts and decency, only fame, fortune and the spreading of hate.

LE officers come in all colors. They are male and female, of different religions and political points of view. It is not us against them as most liberal media and pundits would have you believe. These men and women are human beings who don't want to hurt or kill anyone, they want to prevent hurting and killing. Law enforcement officers do immeasurable good which goes completely unnoticed by those who only want to cry foul and create chaos. Then they go home, have a shower, do their laundry, try to balance the bills, fight with their spouse who feels neglected because the job comes first, always. ALWAYS. They love on their kids and probably help out a neighbor or two, then go back to work and get verbally spit upon all day by those who can't stand to admit that crooks, batterers, thieves, rapists and just plain pissed off people can't be allowed to run unchecked and victimize whomever they please without consequence. I know this because I am married to one. He is not unique, he is typical, I know because I witness it every day.

 

[Opie]

TGIRecovered, the thanks button was not enough.

Certainly there are "bad" people in law enforcement, but there are also "bad" people in just about any job out there.

 

[SpriteGal]

I for one would not expect to live or be seriously injured, if I hit brutally attacked an officer with a shovel. Watching that video, the officer did what he had to do. The guy just goes crazy and knocks the officer to the ground and continues to hit him. IMO

 

[MsFacetious]

Nearly 200 people gathered outside the Salt Lake City Public Safety Building Saturday afternoon in memory of James Dudley Barker, who was shot and killed by a police officer after he attacked and injured the officer with a shovel.

The group Utah Against Police Brutality called for the protest to answer questions about officer training as it relates to restraint and de-escalation and ask for an external investigation of Thursday's shooting. Many also spoke of their relationship and memories of Barker.

"I cannot express how much love he had to give," Heidi Keilbaugh said of the man she said was her boyfriend. "And unfortunately the world has seen a different piece of information."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33061072&ni...alt-lake-man-dead&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory

Wow, I'm a bit surprised that THIS is the case that gets this kind of attention. Then again I usually am. :twocents:

 

[tlcya]

I agree with you Woodland, that there has been a deterioration between LE and some citizens.

You are right about the deterioration. It is a deterioration of common sense, a deterioration of respect for other people and their possessions, a deterioration of real parenthood and sensible leadership.

It s a deterioration of the level of responsibility for one's own behavior and a deterioration of common decency. It breeds hate for fellow human beings who don't buy in to the hate speech. It demands rebellion against those who protect everyone by upholding the law, educators who very often take better care of our nations children than their own families do, business owners who employ us and provide necessary goods and services and fellow citizens who have to try to live among those who choose to put innocent lives in danger. This deterioration breeds people who will hold a sign , block streets, riot, burn, loot and assault, all on the urging of someone who cares nothing about facts and decency, only fame, fortune and the spreading of hate.

LE officers come in all colors. They are male and female, of different religions and political points of view. It is not us against them as most liberal media and pundits would have you believe. These men and women are human beings who don't want to hurt or kill anyone, they want to prevent hurting and killing. Law enforcement officers do immeasurable good which goes completely unnoticed by those who only want to cry foul and create chaos. Then they go home, have a shower, do their laundry, try to balance the bills, fight with their spouse who feels neglected because the job comes first, always. ALWAYS. They love on their kids and probably help out a neighbor or two, then go back to work and get verbally spit upon all day by those who can't stand to admit that crooks, batterers, thieves, rapists and just plain pissed off people can't be allowed to run unchecked and victimize whomever they please without consequence. I know this because I am married to one. He is not unique, he is typical, I know because I witness it every day.

:goodpost:

 

[TGIRecovered]

We have an over abundance of idiots in the world.

 

[MsFacetious]

I can empathize with the family and friends in this case.
It is REALLY hard to believe someone you love could act so out of character.
They are still shocked and also mourning.
Hopefully once they look at the facts they will understand.

Hopefully the autopsy will also shed some light on the situation.
Maybe there was a drug on board, or a tumor, or something that would explain it.
I think it's more likely it was a mental illness that was mostly treated but occasionally flared up. :twocents:

 

[TGIRecovered]

(((Opine))) Hugs to you, friend.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Cry me a river. Oh he was so sweet, let's
give him a free pass to threaten people's lives then attackethe police officer who responds to the innocent citizens call to 911. Way to live.

 

[katydid23]

Again, the quote you are referencing does not state or suggest the comments you have added to it.

Here is the quote I was replying to:

Originally Posted by Woodland
No one is suggesting LE should be walking away from suspects - not in any posts that I can read here anyway. Trying to defuse a situation, from a distance, as a start, might work from time to time. If/when that doesn't work, then a change in tactic would be warranted. Jmo.


HERE is my reply:
Originally Posted by katydid23
If the cop had stopped 'from a distance' and yelled his directives at the man, I think some would have blamed the officer for that decision. ' Why stay so far away--how disrespectful--no wonder the man flipped out...'etc

If he had yelled from a distance it would have likely aggravated the situation, not calmed it. jmo

And there was nothing to 'defuse' at the beginning. It was just a man asking for $ for shoveling snow, and the cop wanting his paperwork. That is pretty routine stuff.

It concerns me the way society second guesses everything LE does lately. They get physically attacked, and then people attack them verbally and blame them for being attacked. What about the man with the shovel who hit the cop several times in the face and head? Any accountability there? Or is it the cop's fault for standing too close?
=============================================================================================


I feel like I replied directly to the comments I quoted.

 

[Woodland]

I agree with you Woodland, that there has been a deterioration between LE and some citizens.

You are right about the deterioration. It is a deterioration of common sense, a deterioration of respect for other people and their possessions, a deterioration of real parenthood and sensible leadership.

It s a deterioration of the level of responsibility for one's own behavior and a deterioration of common decency. It breeds hate for fellow human beings who don't buy in to the hate speech. It demands rebellion against those who protect everyone by upholding the law, educators who very often take better care of our nations children than their own families do, business owners who employ us and provide necessary goods and services and fellow citizens who have to try to live among those who choose to put innocent lives in danger. This deterioration breeds people who will hold a sign , block streets, riot, burn, loot and assault, all on the urging of someone who cares nothing about facts and decency, only fame, fortune and the spreading of hate.

LE officers come in all colors. They are male and female, of different religions and political points of view. It is not us against them as most liberal media and pundits would have you believe. These men and women are human beings who don't want to hurt or kill anyone, they want to prevent hurting and killing. Law enforcement officers do immeasurable good which goes completely unnoticed by those who only want to cry foul and create chaos. Then they go home, have a shower, do their laundry, try to balance the bills, fight with their spouse who feels neglected because the job comes first, always. ALWAYS. They love on their kids and probably help out a neighbor or two, then go back to work and get verbally spit upon all day by those who can't stand to admit that crooks, batterers, thieves, rapists and just plain pissed off people can't be allowed to run unchecked and victimize whomever they please without consequence. I know this because I am married to one. He is not unique, he is typical, I know because I witness it every day.

I like your overview in this post - imo a good way to address the current climate. You have presented one side of this current climate.

Of course there are good cops that do a nasty job day in and day out, and do it well - many. Only a minority would think otherwise, imo. I wish someone could say what is overshadowing this good side. People want to depend on LE, it is the core of law and order, which in turn is the core of democracy, imo. Something seems to be slipping away and I hope we can get it back - soon.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dead-tussle-heated-argument-snow-removal.html

 

[Elley Mae]

I agree with you Woodland, that there has been a deterioration between LE and some citizens.

You are right about the deterioration. It is a deterioration of common sense, a deterioration of respect for other people and their possessions, a deterioration of real parenthood and sensible leadership.

It s a deterioration of the level of responsibility for one's own behavior and a deterioration of common decency. It breeds hate for fellow human beings who don't buy in to the hate speech. It demands rebellion against those who protect everyone by upholding the law, educators who very often take better care of our nations children than their own families do, business owners who employ us and provide necessary goods and services and fellow citizens who have to try to live among those who choose to put innocent lives in danger. This deterioration breeds people who will hold a sign , block streets, riot, burn, loot and assault, all on the urging of someone who cares nothing about facts and decency, only fame, fortune and the spreading of hate.

LE officers come in all colors. They are male and female, of different religions and political points of view. It is not us against them as most liberal media and pundits would have you believe. These men and women are human beings who don't want to hurt or kill anyone, they want to prevent hurting and killing. Law enforcement officers do immeasurable good which goes completely unnoticed by those who only want to cry foul and create chaos. Then they go home, have a shower, do their laundry, try to balance the bills, fight with their spouse who feels neglected because the job comes first, always. ALWAYS. They love on their kids and probably help out a neighbor or two, then go back to work and get verbally spit upon all day by those who can't stand to admit that crooks, batterers, thieves, rapists and just plain pissed off people can't be allowed to run unchecked and victimize whomever they please without consequence. I know this because I am married to one. He is not unique, he is typical, I know because I witness it every day.

Thank you for this. And tell your Mister, Thanks.

 

[SStarr33]

From the video it seems the guy was up to no good.

Cop did what he had to do.

 

[SStarr33]

Nearly 200 people gathered outside the Salt Lake City Public Safety Building Saturday afternoon in memory of James Dudley Barker, who was shot and killed by a police officer after he attacked and injured the officer with a shovel.

The group Utah Against Police Brutality called for the protest to answer questions about officer training as it relates to restraint and de-escalation and ask for an external investigation of Thursday's shooting. Many also spoke of their relationship and memories of Barker.

"I cannot express how much love he had to give," Heidi Keilbaugh said of the man she said was her boyfriend. "And unfortunately the world has seen a different piece of information."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=33061072&ni...alt-lake-man-dead&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory

Wow, I'm a bit surprised that THIS is the case that gets this kind of attention. Then again I usually am. :twocents:

That cop was calm cool and collected. People are cray

 

[al66pine]

Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dead-tussle-heated-argument-snow-removal.html

Blondie,
Thx for above link which has multiple still frames.

One is captioned "Push: The officer was filmed pushing Barker back."
But I see LEO's left hand at chest level in the air, in a keep-still/stay-back stance, not pushing Barker, hand not making contact.
Ditto the vid, I do not see LEO making contact w man.

Even though I had seen same vid at regular speed, seeing man pulling shovel back to gain momentum for shovel hit is scary, imo.

Frame below, captioned "Tumble: The footage shows the officer falling backwards off of the porch..." bbm Imo accurate description.

Imo, LEO had reason to apply SLCPD's use of force policy, allowing use of gun (taser not likely to work w layers of clothing, IIUC).

Link's witness' statement puzzles me - either what witness did not notice or what reporter may have not included.

"Witness RG said saw the two men fighting on the ground, before the officer shot Barker three times in the stomach.
He told Fox13: 'One guy flies off the porch, somebody else flies off the porch and lands on him
'I’m thinking this must be two roommates who came out of the house and are going to settle on the lawn.
But then next thing I saw, he pulled out a gun and shot him.' "

Did witness not notice that one guy was in LEO uniform w marked (presumably) PD vehicle there at curb???
He said he's "thinking ...two roommates who came out of the house and are going to settle on the lawn"???