UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

[SStarr33]

I don't necessarily think that. I just think that somehow LE should be held accountable for their actions. Until we make them accountable, this stuff will continue.

They are held accountable.

 

[cocomod]

I never said he did. But the officer also didn't have a right to shoot so quickly and then claim "self-defense" in order to justify killing someone.

I think that there is a major point missing when people say the policeman shouldn't have killed the civilian just because the civilian is beating him up. LE carry firearms. Many, many times there is a confrontation from a citizen, they try and sometime succeed in taking LE's firearm. Then, we have LE and other innocent civilian's in danger. JMHO

 

[noZme]

My opinion: The situation escalated very quickly. If the guy had not raised & swung the shovel, the officer may very well have backed off to wait for assistance.

People who cooperate with cops aren't likely to get shot.

 

[cocomod]

If I did show ID from 10 - 15 feet away, I would have to put a shovel down if I had one in my hands. If I was failing to produce ID with a shovel in my hand, one might want to back away wondering why I'm not putting the shovel down. Jmo.

What was the reason the officer needed this guys ID? Because neighbors had called? If a DA was consulted, would the DA have said arrest the guy for trying to drum up snow shoveling business? With or without a license? Still think a little de-escalating would have gone a long way, and will go a long way in the future.

IMHO, I think the escalation was caused by the citizen, not LE. He became agitated very quickly.

I don't necessarily think that. I just think that somehow LE should be held accountable for their actions. Until we make them accountable, this stuff will continue.

Saying they should pay was an *example* of how they would be accountable. To be honest, it frightens me to know that any LE officer could shoot me at will, without probable cause, claim "self defense" and there isn't a dam thing anyone could do about it and no justice would be served.

LE does have accountability when we have Grand Jury's and investigations upon EVERY LE shooting. They can and do lose their job if there is evidence that the shooting was not justified. However, we need more people holding the citizens accountable for their actions too. Citizens that are attacking cops - not cool. Unfortunately, this man lost his life. However, IMHO he is responsible for his own death. All he had to do was provide the policeman with his name.

Allegedly.

Allegedly - only he admitted it on tape. I live in Utah, there was no snow there.



Imagine if this cop had just said, "Go about your way, and don't come to this neighborhood as they don't want you here." Imagine the cop then left the area. Imagine, the next day, a body is found in the neighborhood; or a house is robbed; or a child is kidnapped. The cop has a description of the guy, but no name, no address. They have a "suspect", but this LE had just let the suspect go without any information.

In my opinion, this case is not one to fight about. However, I am EXTREMELY disgusted at the media. They are inflaming the public with "This guy was SO wonderful..." He was wonderful - I am sure of it. I am positive that his family and friends will miss him terribly. However, the policeman is probably a wonderful son, spouse, father, friend, and neighbor too. He had a choice to make in a split second after being violently attacked. I feel for his family and friends as he grieves for this decision. I feel for them as well as he may now get death threats and other horrible things for IMHO - doing his job.

RESPECT - it goes two ways. Once certain citizens learn to respect LE, LE will respect them back. I feel horrible for LE right now. I am certain that they are all getting more and more on edge with every new day that brings a new attack against them. When are we going to hold the media and the citizens accountable?

 

[jjenny]

removing

Here is one recent case.
"Police say a suspect shot and killed a Johnson City police officer with the officer’s own weapon on Monday morning."

http://www.localsyr.com/story/d/sto...amton-area-hospi/21718/364J-3q63EqZs8BkWb6lSw

 

[Lulu14]

Here is one recent case.
"Police say a suspect shot and killed a Johnson City police officer with the officer’s own weapon on Monday morning."

http://www.localsyr.com/story/d/sto...amton-area-hospi/21718/364J-3q63EqZs8BkWb6lSw

I hope the policeman's family pays restitution to the guy's family for traumatizing him. Why, the policeman should have shot himself to spare the criminal the trauma of doing it himself.

 

[MsFacetious]

That last statement might be part of the problem. In this case, no one reported the person with the shovel had committed a crime. The officer had no evidence of a crime. Imo, if the person with the shovel had made it as far as the police station, no charges would have ensued.

Actually the officer was there because he was trespassing.
He was on someone's property and that person called to have him removed.
They felt he was suspicious because he wanted to shovel snow when there was no snow.
Technically the officer was investigating a suspicious trespasser.
More than enough reason to ask for his ID.

 

[Elley Mae]

How is it right to say the officer's life is worth more than the gentleman with the shovel? Can we really place value on one life over another? There is NO job in this world (except maybe in the military) where protecting your life should be at the cost of someone else's with no questions asked. At the very least, LE should be held accountable financially to these families.

Why? And for what?

 

[Elley Mae]

I never said he did. But the officer also didn't have a right to shoot so quickly and then claim "self-defense" in order to justify killing someone.

bbm Oh but he did, if anyone did he did. jmo

 

[al66pine]

That last statement might be part of the problem. In this case, no one reported the person with the shovel had committed a crime. The officer had no evidence of a crime.
Imo, if the person with the shovel had made it as far as the police station, no charges would have ensued.

bbm

Is it poss ---
---there were warrants outstanding against shoveler?
---shoveler knew that
---shoveler refused to disclose his name because it was likely LEO would have taken him in on the warrant(s)
---shoveler refused to disclose his 'business name' because there was no business?

JM2cts.

 

[MsFacetious]

If there was outstanding warrants they would have mentioned that by now. :twocents:

 

[al66pine]

Someone posted about LEO asking Barker for papers or paperwork.
IIUC from vid, LEO merely asked for name and business name, not ID or paperwork. Maybe I missed it.

If someone knocks on residential doors to solicit snow-shoveling work, now or esp in future,
wouldn't it be reasonable to expect he w/h business cards or evenpost-it notes w handwritten name & phone, to leave at homes?
Something? Scraps of newspapers w name and phone? Anything?

 

[Woodland]

This has been a great thread to date imo - even with the removed posts.

Have a feeling future discussions on this issue everywhere will be good for everyone trying to move forward. A good thing. Jmo.

 

[EGirl]

If I did show ID from 10 - 15 feet away, I would have to put a shovel down if I had one in my hands. If I was failing to produce ID with a shovel in my hand, one might want to back away wondering why I'm not putting the shovel down. Jmo.

What was the reason the officer needed this guys ID? Because neighbors had called? If a DA was consulted, would the DA have said arrest the guy for trying to drum up snow shoveling business? With or without a license? Still think a little de-escalating would have gone a long way, and will go a long way in the future.

The shovel was leaning on the porch. He picked it up and started attacking him.

 

[Woodland]

That wasn't the point EGirl. So maybe future discussions to help the situation are lost. What a shame.

What is unlikely to happen is the prevalence of 'my way or the highway'. Jmo.

 

[EGirl]

That wasn't the point EGirl. So maybe future discussions to help the situation are lost. What a shame.

What is unlikely to happen is the prevalence of 'my way or the highway'. Jmo.

If I was failing to produce ID with a shovel in my hand, one might want to back away wondering why I'm not putting the shovel down

So what was the point of the line quoted above?

 

[katydid23]

There is no evidence of that in this case.

No, but it does affect this case. There is a huge epeidemic of meth, salts and crack.It affects ALL cases because an officer never knows for sure if a person they are about to interact with might suddenly go sideways on him. So it makes the cops nervous and defensive.

 

[SStarr33]

Check this out:

Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/2...al-of-police-undergoes-use-of-force-scenarios

 

[Woodland]

Funny enough, imo, what is lost is a much wanted/needed two way discussion in de-escalation in the first instance of LE - Citizen encounter.

Any post here, imo, trying to address the point of de-escalation in the first encounter is discounted as 'not going to work', 'should not have to happen', 'not my way of thinking' etc because 'they' are LE. Some posts are deleted.

De-escalation seems to be a core issue where people need to meet - jmo. The 'need' for a one sided win is not going to solve anything. Jmo.

Sadly, suspect things will get much worse before they get better. It could be prevented with unbiased discussion imo.

 

[sunflowerchick]

Funny enough, imo, what is lost is a much wanted/needed two way discussion in de-escalation in the first instance of LE - Citizen encounter.

Any post here, imo, trying to address the point of de-escalation in the first encounter is discounted as 'not going to work', 'should not have to happen', 'not my way of thinking' etc because 'they' are LE. Some posts are deleted.

De-escalation seems to be a core issue where people need to meet - jmo. The 'need' for a one sided win is not going to solve anything. Jmo.

Sadly, suspect things will get much worse before they get better. It could be prevented with unbiased discussion imo.

Amen and ITA! For the record, I deleted my own posts because I choose not to engage in a futile debate and I will not be ridiculed for my own beliefs. I have nothing more to say on this thread.