UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

[musicaljoke]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

Police training has changed over the years. Where once they learned how to safely incapacitate a fractious person, they now learn to rely on their weapons. Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger, that we rarely hear of it. In this case, LE should not have been worried that the man with the shovel would over-power him. He should have been properly trained to handle this situation instead of resorting to the knee-jerk reaction of killing the offender.

The fact that this story hit the press gives me hope that, as a society, we haven't completely set aside our respect for human life.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

In 2013 the approximate population of the US was 316 million.

There were over 11,000,000 estimated arrests in 2013

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ated_number_of_arrests_united_states_2013.xls

Out of those 11,000,000 estimated arrests, there were 461 homicides that were ruled justified by law enforcement officers.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...icide_by_weapon_law_enforcement_2009-2013.xls

11,000,000 with only 416 deaths of offenders. Wow! Considering the number of criminals that resist and assault officers, those numbers imo are pretty darn low.

There is a wealth of information at that website if anyone wants to look at statistical data on a larger level.

 

[al66pine]

Raw vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5PuLeR7Wt8&index=1&list=PL6ANh2xfMDZbTM42IBRDo3-SoE7wUCjZe
Activist critical of police roleplays as LEO in use of force exercise.
Wearing Go-Pro cam, he gets out of patrol car, walks toward fist fight w 2 men speaking loudly.

At ~:17 seconds, activists asks: What's going on today gentlemen?
One dude turns away from fist fight, says: What do you want?.
Activist repeats Q, then says: What's happening here?
Dude starts walking toward activist and says: What's wrong with you?
At ~:20 seconds, activist says: Back up.
Dude has hands at side, hands exposed, no weapon (none I could see in hands). .
At ~:22 seconds, activist shoots dude.

Time elapsed from when activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If you thought you misread that, no, you did not:
Time elapsed from activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Activist critical of LE for acting too quickly, gave BackUp warning, gave dude 2 seconds to comply & shot him.

Gotta finish watching rest of vid. I believe there are 2 more vids. Also a SLC reporter participates in same exercise, no link yet.

 

[tlcya]

Raw vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5PuLeR7Wt8&index=1&list=PL6ANh2xfMDZbTM42IBRDo3-SoE7wUCjZe
Activist critical of police roleplays as LEO in use of force exercise.
Wearing Go-Pro cam, he gets out of patrol car, walks toward fist fight w 2 men speaking loudly.

At ~:17 seconds, activists asks: What's going on today gentlemen?
One dude turns away from fist fight, says: What do you want?.
Activist repeats Q, then says: What's happening here?
Dude starts walking toward activist and says: What's wrong with you?
At ~:20 seconds, activist says: Back up.
Dude has hands at side, hands exposed, no weapon (none I could see in hands). .
At ~:22 seconds, activist shoots dude.

Time elapsed from when activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If you thought you misread that, no, you did not:
Time elapsed from when activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Activist critical of LE for acting too quickly, gave BackUup warning, gave dude 2 seconds to comply & shot him.

Gotta finish watching rest of vid. I believe there are 2 more vids. Also a SLC reporter participates in same exercise, no link yet.

I watched this video and found it very informative. I think it was a good exercise for someone vocal and critical of LE use of force to walk, even briefly, in an LEO's shoes. I hope to see more of this. I really believe that hindsight is 20/20 and that it is extremely easy to play Monday morning quarterback. But none of us doing that can truly have an understanding of what it feels like to be making such serious judgment calls in such a short amount of time when our own lives or that of innocent bystanders could be at stake.

I got the feeling that the activist left that experience with a bit more accurate an understanding of how very quickly these judgments are being made.

 

[sunflowerchick]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

Police training has changed over the years. Where once they learned how to safely incapacitate a fractious person, they now learn to rely on their weapons. Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger, that we rarely hear of it. In this case, LE should not have been worried that the man with the shovel would over-power him. He should have been properly trained to handle this situation instead of resorting to the knee-jerk reaction of killing the offender.

The fact that this story hit the press gives me hope that, as a society, we haven't completely set aside our respect for human life.

Thank you. I think your words are very well thought out and accurate for the situation.

 

[SStarr33]

Raw vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5PuLeR7Wt8&index=1&list=PL6ANh2xfMDZbTM42IBRDo3-SoE7wUCjZe
Activist critical of police roleplays as LEO in use of force exercise.
Wearing Go-Pro cam, he gets out of patrol car, walks toward fist fight w 2 men speaking loudly.

At ~:17 seconds, activists asks: What's going on today gentlemen?
One dude turns away from fist fight, says: What do you want?.
Activist repeats Q, then says: What's happening here?
Dude starts walking toward activist and says: What's wrong with you?
At ~:20 seconds, activist says: Back up.
Dude has hands at side, hands exposed, no weapon (none I could see in hands). .
At ~:22 seconds, activist shoots dude.

Time elapsed from when activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If you thought you misread that, no, you did not:
Time elapsed from when activist's first question until he shoots dude: 5 seconds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Activist critical of LE for acting too quickly, gave BackUup warning, gave dude 2 seconds to comply & shot him.

Gotta finish watching rest of vid. I believe there are 2 more vids. Also a SLC reporter participates in same exercise, no link yet.

I would like everyone on this thread who thinks the cop did the wrong thing to go through this exercise.

 

[SStarr33]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

Police training has changed over the years. Where once they learned how to safely incapacitate a fractious person, they now learn to rely on their weapons. Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger, that we rarely hear of it. In this case, LE should not have been worried that the man with the shovel would over-power him. He should have been properly trained to handle this situation instead of resorting to the knee-jerk reaction of killing the offender.

The fact that this story hit the press gives me hope that, as a society, we haven't completely set aside our respect for human life.

You can't compare an animal to a human.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Common sense:

If you attack an officer of the law with a shovel, you are committing suicide.

If you punch a cop in the face, you are commuting suicide.

If you try to run a cop over with your car, you are committing suicide.

If you point an air soft rifle at a cop (with the orange tip removed intentionally trying to make it look "real"), you are committing suicide.

I'm tired of cops being blamed for protecting themselves from idiots who think they can inflict injury upon them.

Sometimes the most basic concepts are lost on people. I just don't get it.

JMO

 

[Woodland]

Not seeing anyone disputing LE has a tough job, but suggesting they could do some things differently and/or better for the greater good is met with opposition. Don't quite get that.

In the stats presented on arrests vs population has anyone employed by LE ever been arrested? None have done any wrong to bring doubt on their colleagues? Only non LE are ever arrested or suspected of a crime. Drew Peterson?

 

[al66pine]

Originally Posted by katydid23 I blame bath salts and meth for the police shootings more than I blame the police. JMO

There is no evidence of that in this case.

This case:
Is saying no evd of bath salts, meth in this case a bit premature? Any tox results on this deceased yet?
If/when results are made public, is absence or presence relevant in this case?

Other cases, generally:
One disadvantage for LEOs in these situations --
unfortunately, no way for them to collect bodily fluids, submit to lab, & get tox results,
before they respond to dispatch calls by actually approaching suspects.

Presence or absenceof drug use, verifiable onlyafter the fact, is not particularly relevant, imo,
for LEOs in face to face situations leading to PD's use of force policy.

ITA w katydid23. JM2cts and I may be wrong.

 

[Woodland]

Common sense:

If you attack an officer of the law with a shovel, you are committing suicide.

If you punch a cop in the face, you are commuting suicide.

If you try to run a cop over with your car, you are committing suicide.

If you point an air soft rifle at a cop (with the orange tip removed intentionally trying to make it look "real"), you are committing suicide.

I'm tired of cops being blamed for protecting themselves from idiots who think they can inflict injury upon them.

Sometimes the most basic concepts are lost on people. I just don't get it.

JMO

Finding it difficult to comprehend the reluctance to see the 'before' things got out of hand aspect. No one is saying LE should not protect themselves, yet that accusation is there towards those trying to look at what could have taken place. Not understanding that.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Not seeing anyone disputing LE has a tough job, but suggesting they could do some things differently and/or better for the greater good is met with opposition. Don't quite get that.

In the stats presented on arrests vs population has anyone employed by LE ever been arrested? None have done any wrong to bring doubt on their colleagues? Only non LE are ever arrested or suspected of a crime. Drew Peterson?

IMO that's a different discussion.
I'm sure there are "bad cops".

We are talking about specific incidences where cops are being attacked and they respond by protecting their lives.

You just can't beat a cop with a shovel and not expect him to draw and USE his weapon.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

In 2013 the approximate population of the US was 316 million.

There were over 11,000,000 estimated arrests in 2013

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ated_number_of_arrests_united_states_2013.xls

Out of those 11,000,000 estimated arrests, there were 461 homicides that were ruled justified by law enforcement officers.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...icide_by_weapon_law_enforcement_2009-2013.xls

11,000,000 with only 416 deaths of offenders. Wow! Considering the number of criminals that resist and assault officers, those numbers imo are pretty darn low.

There is a wealth of information at that website if anyone wants to look at statistical data on a larger level.

Amazing actually.
Thanks for bringing this forward. Very interesting.

 

[katydid23]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

Police training has changed over the years. Where once they learned how to safely incapacitate a fractious person, they now learn to rely on their weapons. Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger, that we rarely hear of it. In this case, LE should not have been worried that the man with the shovel would over-power him. He should have been properly trained to handle this situation instead of resorting to the knee-jerk reaction of killing the offender.

The fact that this story hit the press gives me hope that, as a society, we haven't completely set aside our respect for human life.

I am not sure that these civilians who attack the LE can be compared to animals. Animals, of course, have no idea what it means to attack the vet. They are acting on instinct. But the guy with the shovel KNEW it was illegal and wrong to begin assaulting the officer with his shovel.

LE used to know how to de-ecalate because in the old days, it was usually angry or drunk people. Not anymore. Quite often they are dealing with people on very hard, horrible drugs which make them very irrational, impulsive and strong. An officer does not know, at the moment an attack begins, if the perp is on bath salts or meth. He does not know if he will be able to reason with the person or if they are going to pull out a box cutter and go at him. This is NOT the good old days when peace officers knew everyone and could lock them in the drunk tank and let them cool off.

My son works for a law enforcement agency. EVERY SINGLE MORNING he receives new email warning, in the form of videos, which show the latest attack on officers nationwide. They show cops pulling someone over for a tail light and being fired on w/in seconds. Or a cop talking calmly with someone in an ally behind a business, and suddenly being attacked from behind by an accomplice, and being hit with a 2 by 4. They see these videos every single day as a way to warn them about what is up.

So I really do not blame them for looking at every interaction with some suspicion. And if it does get to a point that someone is bashing them in the head with a shovel--GAME OVER. Too bad, so sad. There is no reason that the officer should try to figure out a way to make it easier and safer for the person that is trying to kill or maim them. Their only goal at that point is to get home to their family that night. jmo

In fact, I have to strongly disagree with this statement:

"Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger,...."

What? Are you saying that an officer that is being attacked , by for example being hit in the head, multiple times with a shovel , should not use maximum force necessary to save his own life? How can you expect an officer to do his job if he cannot defend himself against the vicious attacks from others?

 

[katydid23]

Finding it difficult to comprehend the reluctance to see the 'before' things got out of hand aspect. No one is saying LE should not protect themselves, yet that accusation is there towards those trying to look at what could have taken place. Not understanding that.

But isnt that much like blaming the victim>? Like blaming the drunk girl in a club for her rape?

Obviously the cop did not think the perp was going to grab the shovel and begin hitting him with it. He had no way to know that or expect that. he just wanted to talk to him to sort things out. But once it began to go sideways the cop had every right to defend himself.

Some seem to be blaming the cop for this guys totally irrational reaction to being asked for his name.

 

[Lulu14]

Finding it difficult to comprehend the reluctance to see the 'before' things got out of hand aspect. No one is saying LE should not protect themselves, yet that accusation is there towards those trying to look at what could have taken place. Not understanding that.

The way I see it, no one is willing to risk their lives, and not seeing their families over the idea that maybe the person attacking them should have a shot at living. And rightfully so.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

Police training has changed over the years. Where once they learned how to safely incapacitate a fractious person, they now learn to rely on their weapons. Killing someone in order to protect yourself should be such an extreme measure in the face of danger, that we rarely hear of it. In this case, LE should not have been worried that the man with the shovel would over-power him. He should have been properly trained to handle this situation instead of resorting to the knee-jerk reaction of killing the offender.

The fact that this story hit the press gives me hope that, as a society, we haven't completely set aside our respect for human life.

Medical staff have to deal with human patients that do the same as you described above. That's a different issue.

Rabid and aggressive animals, most certainly get shot on the streets when they are a threat to the safety of others.

 

[katydid23]

Not seeing anyone disputing LE has a tough job, but suggesting they could do some things differently and/or better for the greater good is met with opposition. Don't quite get that.

In the stats presented on arrests vs population has anyone employed by LE ever been arrested? None have done any wrong to bring doubt on their colleagues? Only non LE are ever arrested or suspected of a crime. Drew Peterson?

I don't think anyone is saying that cops as a whole cannot make improvements in training etc. But we are speaking specifically about this case. And I don't see anything that indicates THIS OFFICER did anything wrong. he followed routine protocol in answering this call about a suspicious person on private property. And he was attacked and fought back in self defense.

Of course there are 'bad' cops. but no evidence this particular cop was one of them.

 

[katydid23]

The way I see it, no one is willing to risk their lives, and not seeing their families over the idea that maybe the person attacking them should have a shot at living. And rightfully so.

BINGO. EXactly right. Cops are not super heroes. If someone pulls a gun on them, or a knife, or begins hitting them in their head with a rock or a shovel, they are not going to take the time to think of a way to soften the response to save the attacker's life. That is not their job. Why taze someone who is trying to bash your head in?

It really bothers me when the families of the attackers come to the public to say how wonderful their dead family member is and ask why the cop did not taze or de-escalate. What about the cops family? Did the cop deserve to duck the bullets or the blows to the head?

 

[al66pine]

I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals....

Good analogy, but differences come to mind in comparing pets & vets to suspects & LEOs.
I can imagine circumstances where a pet/livestock-patient could do serious bodily harm to vets treating them. I imagine some vets h/bn killed by patients.

1.
LEOs approach ppl who may have the strength and/or weapons and inclination to take LEOs' guns from them.
Do vets treat pet/livestock-patients w opposable thumbs which would enable them to take vets' guns away and shoot them?
Aside from chimps, monkeys, guessing only few animals are capable of overpowering vets & taking guns, scalpels, etc. & using them against vets or staff.
Just guessing and am ready to be enlightened or corrected by others w vet office experience.

2.
Does a vet commonly approach animals - w no staff? If no staff in exam room at same time, is staff more than mere feet or seconds away?
An LEO confronted w an unknown person or suspect may not have assistance/other LEO available for miles or minutes.

3.
LEOs' several ways of subduing a person attacking him, such as fists, tasers, batons, pepper spray, guns, all may have some unpleasant effects/injuries.
AFAIK, LEOs do not carry any syringes of drugs to immediately incapacitate a person in a way reversible w another drug.
I imagine vets have such drugs available.Maybe not?

4.
For animals known - before exam/contact/treatment - to be difficult, vets may be able to prescribe and dispense Rx to reduce undesirable behavior.
Not an option for LEOs.

Glad your husband is treating and caring for animals; where would our loved furry ones be without vets?
As a pet lover, I appreciate that vets may face dangers daily from their patients.