UT - James Dudley Barker, 42, Salt Lake City, killed by LE, 7 Jan 2015

  • #161
http://www.fugitive.com/2015/01/10/...ody-cam-footage-of-officer-involved-shooting/

There did not appear to be snow on walkways in the area where the shooting occurred. Also, police claim The officer’s body cam footage from a police-involved shooting on Jan. 8, 2015. The camera was damaged in the confrontation between the officer and the suspect, causing the footage to stop. The officer, was taken to a hospital and treated for fractures to his arm and foot. It was said a witness saw the two wrestling in-front of the house for about 10 to 15 seconds when the officer shot the suspect.


The video shows the officer getting hit by the shovel and then he falls backwards down the cement steps. The camera is then damaged so we can't see what happened after that.

A witness has stated that they saw the two wrestling, so I am wondering if the man went further and continued to attack the officer when he was down?? The officer has a fractured arm and foot according to the article. The officer is down and needs to protect himself and prevent the man from getting his gun with a broken arm.

We will see when more details of the investigation come out.
 
  • #162
Human animals differ from other animals. We have opposable thumbs, we have higher reasoning abilities where animals have more instinctive fight or flight reactions based on primal knowledge. Animals attack from fear, for food, protect territory, protect young. Instinct. Human animals are thinking beings, more able to connect dots and reason things through far beyond the primitive animal instinct based responses of other animals.

So the idea that Baker lost all sense of reason and was acting on animal instinct is hard for me to swallow.

How did the officer cause fear in this man? What did the officer threaten him with? I missed it. This is not snark, this is honest question. In what way did the officer threaten, disrespect or cause Baker to fear for his life justifying him to leave all reason behind and act upon a more primal, animal instinct?

I for one do not want a dog suffering from extreme fear aggression wandering the streets unchecked, unleashed, unsupervised, unrestrained, in my neighborhood. If I saw one, I would contact animal control to come and remove the frightened, dangerous animal from my street so it could not pose a threat to myself or my neighbors.

So if we are really going to compare Mr. Baker with an animal then I feel compelled to mention that. And I am very uncomfortable with comparing a human, thinking, reasoning, being with an animal whose repertoire is more limited to primal instinct because IMO its not even apples and oranges. It's apples and cheesecake. :moo:
 
  • #163
.... The problem lies in what I mentioned before. Citizens no longer understand their rights and cannot be assured that their rights will be upheld so they instantly go into a defensive mode when approached by LE and I believe that is what happened here. I think this man with the shovel didn't understand why he was being questioned, didn't know what his rights were and therefore felt a need to attack as opposed to cooperating. It is instinct....
sbm bbm

Respectfully, pointing out, ON VID that~ the time LEO got up on porch, LEO was telling shovel-man that (my paraphrasing)
ppl in the neighborhood had called about someone of his description soliciting snowshovel work, at place/time w no/little snow and
was the previous day was looking in windows of cars parked on street.
IOW, imo, LEO explained why he had been dispatched to scene, and said, LEO was not stopping to question random ppl.

As someone up thread mentioned, shovel-man had been arrested before for failure to ID self,
so it seems he should have bn aware of that law. Did he think it did not apply to him?
In light of his prior arrests, seems he w/h/bn Mirandized multiple times, so would be aware of his post-arrest rights (altho he was not yet arrested).
Altogether, seems LEO gave enough info to tell him why he was being questioned.
Is it poss that he knew why he was being questioned, decided attacking LEO w shovel was a better choice than answering LEO questions?

JM2cts and I could be wrong.
 
  • #164
Now THIS I can agree with. He absolutely should and could have asked him to put down the shovel. He didn't. He failed at that point. And AGAIN I never said he didn't have a right to defend himself. I just said that should have been avoided at all costs.

It is very common for victims of crime to reflect back and say things like well if I maybe would have done this or that different, maybe it wouldn't have happened. When crimes hit the news, it is common to see many blaming victims for the actions of criminals. She/he shouldn't have been out late at night, etc.

Even if he ask him to put down the shovel, it doesn't mean that he would have complied. We don't know that. It is easy to say in hindsight that something "may" have had a different outcome had a person done this, that or the other.

The man tells the officer to go away and leave him alone. He tells him to get back in his car. That is what the man wanted the officer to do. He attacked because the officer didn't leave. It's very clear he was not going to comply.

It's the same with the majority of the other LE shootings. The criminals don't want to be arrested and go to jail for their crimes so they resist and/or attack. I don't believe it has anything to do with a criminal not knowing their rights. They are fully aware that engaging in criminal behavior is not a "right".
 
  • #165
The thing is I have never said the cop was wrong in defending himself. But I think it is important to understand WHY this keeps occurring across the country. It is becoming a real problem and I would hate to see it escalate more than it already has.

Yes, I think LE gets a bad reputation. In some cases that is horribly unjust. In other cases...well it isn't. I know I won't change anyone's mind here if you feel the need to defend the actions of this officer. Know that you probably won't change mine either. However you have given me some things to think about. Sadly, we will still disagree on the basics but I am open minded enough to consider that I *might* be wrong here.

My issue isn't with this specific case but with this growing epidemic of cop violence in general. All too often we just immediately say "the officer was justified" without looking at the facts. Even when the facts are presented, the officers are always found justified. Arguing here isn't going to change anything but I hope that as a whole society we can look at what we are doing wrong and work to correct it. That means that everyone has responsibility. All of us.

Whether this officer was justified or not doesn't matter. The end result is what matters. Another family and friends have lost someone dear to them. Somehow, somewhere this needs to stop.

I agree there is a growing epidemic of violence in this country. But if you look at the statistics it is not the cops that are committing the vast majority of the violence. They are REACTING to the violence. They are trying to quell the violence and bring justice to the victims.

And I agree that the entire society needs to look at the issues/causes. But in my opinion, it has less to do with the justice system and more to do with the failing family structure and the absence of respect for authority and tradition and family support/structure. We have a huge wave of young kids who kill each other and others over 10 dollar bags of weed. It is beyond ridiculous. 14 and 15 yr olds carrying weapons and doing armed robberies. I do not blame the justice system for this. I blame the parents. Or lack of.

As for the cops usually being found justified, OF COURSE they are. They are usually given the benefit of the doubt. They are not out roaming around looking to kill someone. Imo, they are forced into these shootouts because they are DOING THEIR JOBS. So juries are rarely going to find them guilty for defending themselves under these circumstances.

Cops do not want to have physical altercations. Who wants to dodge bullets or be hit in the head with shovels? It is the worst part of the job. My son is awaiting the birth of his first child. I really wanted to buy them baby clothes and a rocking chair for Christmas. But my son had a serious request. He and his wife wanted our help so he could upgrade his kevlar vest from the basic commissioned one to one that prevents automatic weapon gunfire intrusion. He needed 800 bucks for the upgrade. So instead of buying baby clothes we helped them buy a new bullet proof vest.
 
  • #166
I really think this all boils down to the decreasing amount of respect for authority.

We see it in our classrooms. It's not uncommon for kids to be totally disrespectful or even physically assault teachers. Why? Because they don't respect authority.

It's not uncommon for teens to lash out and physically assault their parents or grandparents. Why? Because they don't respect authority.

We see it in the workforce. Workplace violence is up. Why? Because many people don't respect authority. It's their way or no way.

We see it against LE all the time. Many people act like cops owe them respect. Even when it's not earned. The truth is, LE has authority. Agree with them or not, you can not just refuse to follow commands and physically attack them! Why does this happen? Many people don't respect authority.


Just my thoughts.
 
  • #167
The shovel was leaning on the porch. He picked it up and started attacking him.

Exactly, and whose porch was it? I wouldn't like some random guy standing on my porch and defiantly remains there after a cop arrives to talk to him. This guy had some serious issues and totally lost it for no good reason.

If a cop got that reaction (being beaten with a shovel/physically attacked) every single time he spoke to a suspiciously acting character, he/she wouldn't last a week.

Imo, the cop spoke calmly and respectfully to Barker. Barker's reaction was extremely volatile, and I certainly wouldn't have liked standing opposite with him swinging at me.

Where is his business card if he plans to solicit snow clearing now or in the future? Barker should be providing his would-be customers with his name, so why the problem providing it to the cop? :thinking:

I agree, there are bad cops, he/she shoot/taser till death/choke holds that kill, without any provocation, we have them in my country too, and their actions should be reviewed and charges laid. This cop was performing his duty and tearing him down is counter-productive. JMO
 
  • #168
I wrote something out the other night and ended up deleting it. I was having a hard time putting my words in writing in a way that others may be able to understand or relate to.

I don't want to argue with anyone.

We all all human beings and our opinions are formed on the experiences that we each individually have in life.

No two situations are the same and should never be analyzed as such.

We should never group one action of a individual and say that it is a result of (profession, race, gender, sexual oriental, religion, political affiliation etc.) because none of those things have anything to do with "individuals" that make bad choices.

It's my opinion that if we want to have a better society, then we need to concede and work together. Your childs life or someone elses, may depend on it.
 
  • #169
IIUC, this thread relates to this man hitting this LEO w snow shovel & this LEO's response.

Seems like, to be productive, we should all know what current laws & policies are now.

Anybody here read Utah's LEO self-defense law? Or SLC,UT PD's use of force policy? Any links?
 
  • #170
  • #171
Utah has stand your ground law. Which basically means someone who is being attacked is not obligated to retreat and can use deadly force to protect him or herself from death or serious bodily injury.
Beating someone with a shovel is an assault.
 
  • #172
I can recall many animals over the years, that have tried to bite, kick, gore, trample my husband, who is a veterinarian. Shooting the animal was never a consideration. I have been pondering why it seems appropriate for police to shoot someone who may be trying to inflict injury upon them, but it's not an issue when dealing with animals that are out to kill their vet. Veterinarians are trained in handling animals and predicting kicks and bites from the animal's behaviour. They have some resources at hand. They are taught self-protective behaviours for dealing with frightened and injured animals.

I can't believe anyone would even compare frightened animals in a vet's office with cops approaching potential dangerous criminals!

Those two situations are not at ALL the same! People take their animals to the vet's office and the vet has a CHOICE when and how to deal with the animal! They can CONTAIN the animal and use drugs or muzzles as needed because THEY are in control!

Likewise the doctors/guards working in a mental hospital don't just open fire when they come across an unruly/violent patient, they are set up to HANDLE those problems in a CONTROLLED environment which is completely different then encountering and apprehending dangerous possibly armed individuals on the loose.
 
  • #173
Exactly, and whose porch was it?

I wondered that too. Who's house was it? He pointed to the house across the street as one of the homes he visited, if he lived there wouldn't the neighbor KNOW who he was?
 
  • #174
Utah has stand your ground law. Which basically means someone who is being attacked is not obligated to retreat and can use deadly force to protect him or herself from death or serious bodily injury.
Beating someone with a shovel is an assault.

Absolutely.
 
  • #175
My son is awaiting the birth of his first child. I really wanted to buy them baby clothes and a rocking chair for Christmas. But my son had a serious request. He and his wife wanted our help so he could upgrade his kevlar vest from the basic commissioned one to one that prevents automatic weapon gunfire intrusion. He needed 800 bucks for the upgrade. So instead of buying baby clothes we helped them buy a new bullet proof vest.

This makes me sad beyond all measure. :cry:
 
  • #176
  • #177
  • #178
D.A. agrees to 're-examine' police shooting death in light of new video

-----------------------

SALT LAKE CITY — Exactly one year after James Dudley Barker was shot and killed by a Salt Lake police officer in the front yard of an Avenues home, Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill promised Friday to "re-examine" the case in light of a new video that purports to show some of the incident.

The video, released Friday by police reform activist and former Davis County Sheriff William "Dub" Lawrence, appears to show officer Matthew Taylor standing with Barker's still body between his feet. He and others believe it shows him crouched down and shooting Barker three times at close range.

---------

Grow, however, said Barker did not swing at Taylor multiple times and he saw the officer shoot Barker three times at point blank range, rather than from a few feet away.

After the two men jumped off the porch and continued to struggle, Grow said, the snow shovel was not involved.

He said he immediately asked Taylor if he needed any help, but said the officer ordered him to leave. "I don't think the police officer wanted any witnesses," Grow said. "I think he hoped that I didn't see everything that happened."

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=38066441&ni...ight-of-new-video&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory
 
  • #179
One reason for this officer to have lied about the events imo is, the threshold for the use of lethal force was not met.

The autopsy should have prompted questions from the DA at the time - but it would appear no further questions were asked with the old 'he grabbed for my gun'. Will never believe that line again.
 
  • #180
I agree there is a growing epidemic of violence in this country. But if you look at the statistics it is not the cops that are committing the vast majority of the violence. They are REACTING to the violence. They are trying to quell the violence and bring justice to the victims.

And I agree that the entire society needs to look at the issues/causes. But in my opinion, it has less to do with the justice system and more to do with the failing family structure and the absence of respect for authority and tradition and family support/structure. We have a huge wave of young kids who kill each other and others over 10 dollar bags of weed. It is beyond ridiculous. 14 and 15 yr olds carrying weapons and doing armed robberies. I do not blame the justice system for this. I blame the parents. Or lack of.

As for the cops usually being found justified, OF COURSE they are. They are usually given the benefit of the doubt. They are not out roaming around looking to kill someone. Imo, they are forced into these shootouts because they are DOING THEIR JOBS. So juries are rarely going to find them guilty for defending themselves under these circumstances.

Cops do not want to have physical altercations. Who wants to dodge bullets or be hit in the head with shovels? It is the worst part of the job. My son is awaiting the birth of his first child. I really wanted to buy them baby clothes and a rocking chair for Christmas. But my son had a serious request. He and his wife wanted our help so he could upgrade his kevlar vest from the basic commissioned one to one that prevents automatic weapon gunfire intrusion. He needed 800 bucks for the upgrade. So instead of buying baby clothes we helped them buy a new bullet proof vest.

Prayers for your son. I hope he remains safe.

I see so many who seem to blame the police officer for the wrongdoings of the ones they are having to deal with. I truly don't understand it. Another thing I have never understood is why do all of these people refuse to comply to the officer's requests? Where has all of this disrespect come from? That seems to be the one common factor in so many of these cases. Instead of doing as the officer asked them to do, and usually the officer at the time is firm, but respectful they still want to be confrontational. There is nothing hard about doing as a police officer asks but yet time and time again many just will not do it. It has to be a disrespect for any authority figure. Why are so many wanting to be confrontational now more than ever it seems?

I believe there are over 800 thousand police officers in our nation, perhaps more, yet even in the worst of times most officers show great restraint even when they have been assaulted, and they are many thousands of times a year.

FBI: 76 Law Enforcement Officers Killed in Line of Duty Last Year; 49,851 Assaulted

The FBI says assailants used personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.) in 79.8 percent of the incidents; firearms in 4.5 percent of incidents; and knives or other cutting instruments in 1.8 percent of the incidents. (Other weapons were used in 13.9 percent of assaults.)

The report does not provide a racial breakdown of the assaulted officers or of the known suspects.


http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...rs-killed-line-duty-last-year-49851-assaulted

It shows who the majority of aggressors really are and it isn't the majority of our police officers. Of course like in any other profession there are always some bad ones mixed in with the majority of good ones. Imo, all police officers in our nation are way too often painted with the same wide brush as if they are all bad, when in truth most are good dedicated honorable officers who have a very dangerous job to do. I cant think of any other profession held here in the states in which they are assaulted on the job almost 50K times in one year.

Another thing that often puzzles me is the average citizen has a constitutional right to defend themselves when being attacked. In this state in this case the law says there is no duty to retreat. Yet so many do not think the very ones who actually put their lives on the line everyday have those same rights. That just doesn't make sense since it is our police officers are the ones who truly have to deal with the criminals everyday.

What needs to stop are the assaults upon police officers who are only trying to perform their job duties. They are being assaulted or worse when serving warrants, coming to the aid in a domestic violence situation, or in simple traffic stops or just sitting there in their cop car bothering no one.

The few bad ones mixed in with the very dedicated officers should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law but all the multiple thousands of other officers we have should be totally supported. They are the ones taking the bad guys/women off the streets when millions of crimes are committed each year. They are the ones who have the courage to go down in crime ridden infested areas to investigate multiple homicides that happen each year. They are the ones who have to see another innocent child who has been murdered by drive by shootings. They see the devastation lawlessness causes and it affects them just like anyone else. They are mothers, fathers, sons, daughters and grandparents themselves. They feel hurt and pain just like we all feel the overwhelming sadness when violence has taken another life.

The SWAT team officers in GA who could not save the little two year old boy from being murdered by his father..sobbed uncontrollably when it happened.

All this man had to do is do as the officer asked. He was the one who had no right whatsoever to attack this officer who was very calm and respectful when talking with him.

IMO
 

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