GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #2

[Ina Cognito]

Ok here's what Dr Thompson testified about the medications:

1. For this type of facial surgery, he normally prescribes Vicodin (aka Lortab) for pain, Antibiotic, Ambien (7 pills), Steroid for swelling/inflammation and sometimes phenergan for nausea, and antibiotic eye ointment

2. For Michele he prescribed all of those normal medications

3. Prescribed phenergan (he said "10 pills") because Martin said she gets nauseous and anxious easily

4. In addition to the normal medications, he prescribed Percocet, Valium, and Lortab elixer

5. Prescribed Percocet and Valium - because Martin said wife didn't handle pain well and got very anxious and wanted to have all of these medications available for her

6. Prescribed Percocet pills instead of Lortab pills, but did prescribe Lortab elixer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=64djjLPbmKQ#t=1910

Copy, thank you for searching that out

 

[Bravo]

Thanks. Good points and beneficial information. Destruction of the remaining pills and the inventory was part of the plan, I think.

I just read that if one crushes the tablets of a drug like Oxycontin, it loses its time-release properties and is absorbed all at once. A one-time dose of only 160mg of Oxycontin can be lethal to a person who has not built up a tolerance to it. Also, of course, there are significant contraindications to taking this drug (and others like it) in combination.

Agree. Oxys have been a real problem here in Canada with addiction. I know I read recently that they were going to change the drug. As to the structure you mention. Crush it and one can get the full effect immediately. Now it seems folks have moved on the fentanyl patches as a drug of choice :banghead:

 

[Italy]

Ok here's what Dr Thompson testified about the medications:

1. For this type of facial surgery, he normally prescribes Vicodin (aka Lortab) for pain, Antibiotic, Ambien (7 pills), Steroid for swelling/inflammation and sometimes phenergan for nausea, and antibiotic eye ointment

2. For Michele he prescribed all of those normal medications

3. Prescribed phenergan (he said "10 pills") because Martin said she gets nauseous and anxious easily

4. In addition to the normal medications, he prescribed Percocet, Valium, and Lortab elixer

5. Prescribed Percocet and Valium - because Martin said wife didn't handle pain well and got very anxious and wanted to have all of these medications available for her

6. Prescribed Percocet pills instead of Lortab pills, but did prescribe Lortab elixer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=64djjLPbmKQ#t=1910

Thanks for info. Do you recall the drugs the pharmacologist testified were present in her system that were not on the list of drugs prescribed by plastic surgeon?

 

[Ina Cognito]

Agree. Oxys have been a real problem here in Canada with addiction. I know I read recently that they were going to change the drug. As to the structure you mention. Crush it and one can get the full effect immediately. Now it seems folks have moved on the fentanyl patches as a drug of choice :banghead:

And it's jerks like that which make MY life harder grrrrrr

 

[Zuri]

I can understand what you're saying Zuri and grasp you but, at the same time my (unfortunate) experience with all of these medications just relates to me they do not do it. While you could do it, I would say it's not done often at all. Oxyconton and Lortab? Sure, that makes sense. Oxyconton and Percocet? Sure, could still make sense. Of course Oxyconton and Dilaudid makes sense but Percoet and Lortab? That just doesn't make the same sense to me, know what I mean? It would be very unusual as both can and are used for moderate to severe pain, have very similar times to effectiveness and duration. Hope that makes sense?

The Vailum? I think that was to keep her calm simply due to the pain she was expected to experience. I recall the doc even mentioning this?

My unfortunate issues are chronic back pain due to work related injury and Trigeminal Neuralgia (lucky me lol) I won't question your knowledge Zuri as you're a nurse apparently? Im just a patient that likes to know what's going on lol I've got one of those minds like a sponge though and tend to retain things.

Before I got sick, I worked Recovery Room and Same Day Surgery. I saw these given a lot in that order, with that rationale by the surgeons. They would rather give more Vicodin (Lortab) than Percocet typically. Because of the high addiction rates to OxyContin, Percocet was used more. Patients can become addicted to OxyContin in as little as 3 days and actually go through withdrawal.

Of course, every patient is different and every surgeon has their own way of doing things. I am so sorry that you have Trigeminal Neuralgia. Very very painful. I have seen some patients who could not stand a sheet to even touch them or for a door to close causing the slightest change in air current. Bless your heart.

 

[minor4th]

Copy, thank you for searching that out

I'm still listening to see what he says about prescribing additional meds/refills after the surgery.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Thanks for info. Do you recall the drugs the pharmacologist testified were present in her system that were not on the list of drugs prescribed by plastic surgeon?

I don't think there were any in her system that were not accounted for?

 

[minor4th]

Me too. Now I did see on the HLN site a pic of one of the pill bottles. I believe it was the Ambien bottle. Quantity was 30 with 0 repeats.

If that's so, then that is a prescription that was filled after the initial 7 Ambien that the doc prescribed

 

[Bravo]

In my mind there is no way he was preforming CPR on Michele before the neighbor arrived. he claimed to the 911 dispatcher he was but Michele was still in the tub, Mrs Daniels (neighbor) never saw him on the phone so he was on the phone before her arrival. No way he was doing CPR, that was a lie. I just hope the jury caught that but I'm sure that the state will point it out on summation.

Agree. After the male neighbor arrived he was said to be observed performing CPR right??? If memory serves me??? That's what I am speaking to. One could just depress the chest enough to "appear" to be doing CPR yet not doing the Victim any good. Correct me if I have my facts straight. Sometimes I follow too many cases LOL

 

[renatae]

BTW for those less familar Lortab is essentially Vicodin. It's the same meds hydrocodone and acetominophen. They're just two different name brands. Why would a doctor give someone percocet and vicodin at the same time?

I think this is the crux of the case when it comes to the meds - no one would do this. Martin specifically asked for all these meds, and even though it made the plastic surgeon uncomfortable, he said he went ahead and prescribed them, assuming since Martin was a doc, he would not be administering them all in conjuction with one another, but rather alternating them in some way. But, of course, Martin had every intention of using them all concurrently.
ETA - Sorry for redundant answer; I'm way behind.
Sheeshe, HLN has been repeating old news all day and just starting with the toxicologist cross - never even saw the direct.

 

[Bravo]

Ok here's what Dr Thompson testified about the medications:

1. For this type of facial surgery, he normally prescribes Vicodin (aka Lortab) for pain, Antibiotic, Ambien (7 pills), Steroid for swelling/inflammation and sometimes phenergan for nausea, and antibiotic eye ointment

2. For Michele he prescribed all of those normal medications

3. Prescribed phenergan (he said "10 pills") because Martin said she gets nauseous and anxious easily

4. In addition to the normal medications, he prescribed Percocet, Valium, and Lortab elixer

5. Prescribed Percocet and Valium - because Martin said wife didn't handle pain well and got very anxious and wanted to have all of these medications available for her

6. Prescribed Percocet pills instead of Lortab pills, but did prescribe Lortab elixer

7. Later says he prescribed phenergan suppositories at husband's request (and Percocet at husband's request)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=64djjLPbmKQ#t=1910

Thanks for the info. Now I could have swore I saw 30 tabs for the Ambien on the HLN site. Must have been another drug. I stand corrected :seeya:

 

[Ina Cognito]

Agree. After the male neighbor arrived he was said to be observed performing CPR right??? If memory serves me??? That's what I am speaking to. One could just depress the chest enough to "appear" to be doing CPR yet not doing the Victim any good. Correct me if I have my facts straight. Sometimes I follow too many cases LOL

Oh I totally agree to that too! lol I'm sorry, my bad. Sometimes the way I write things get messed up if I'm doing too many things at once. I don't think he was doing CPR before the neighbors arrived NOR while they were there. If he had and was doing it properly she would have regurgitated that fluid well before the EMTs arrived.

 

[Ina Cognito]

Thanks for the info. Now I could have swore I saw 30 tabs for the Ambien on the HLN site. Must have been another drug. I stand corrected :seeya:

No, you're not wrong. I believe the toxologist just testified to the prescription copies and what she had, no? He said a 30 day supply of Ambian. Or am I losing it? lol

 

[Italy]

I think this is the crux of the case when it comes to the meds - no one would do this. Martin specifically asked for all these meds, and even though it made the plastic surgeon uncomfortable, he said he went ahead and prescribed them, assuming since Martin was a doc, he would not be administering them all in conjuction with one another, but rather alternating them in some way. But, of course, Martin had every intention of using them all concurrently.

And then, within a couple of hours of death, he had his son's girlfriend flush all the remaining drugs down the toilet??

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Will Alexis be allowed to testify? I thought the judge ruled most if not all of her testimony as inadmissable?

That would be Ada, the youngest child.

 

[minor4th]

Thanks for the info. Now I could have swore I saw 30 tabs for the Ambien on the HLN site. Must have been another drug. I stand corrected :seeya:

I think Martin called and got the meds refilled, so you could have seen a bottle for 30 ambien. I'm still listening to the testimony to see when martin called and what refills he requested

 

[Norwegian]

Yes, this expert witness might be thorough, but I like it as I'm learning a lot of new things. Also, I think it's very necessary that he does it.

Yeah, so here's the takeaway from this witness' testimony, and I hope this jury gets it:

1. Michele had all of the drugs in her system, from a blood sample drawn 24 hours after her death

2. The combination of drugs would cause an additive sedative effect.

3. The ambien alone would be enough to put her to sleep, the other medications would enhance that effect.

4. Even if the drug cocktail wouldnt render her completely unconscious, she would at the very least be impaired and sedated

5. He can't accurately determine or analyze the amounts of the drugs in her blood because it was drawn 24 hours after her death.

The thing that puzzles me is that Alexis spoke with her mother that fatal morning at 8:41AM, her mother was in good spirits and up and running. If her mother had been doped she would have recognized.

MM's whereabouts from 8:30-9:30AM that morning is unknown. I think he was at home, doing something.

From work that day he called Michele and left a message on her phone (Daughter Vanessa heard this message as she was using her mothers phone after the death):

"Michelle, don't you dare, don't you dare go anywhere. Don't you go anywhere. Take it easy. Please I'm very concerned for you, you, um, you just stay where you're at. I'm coming home. I'm going to make you a sandwich and we'll have a lovely lunch together, but just don't call anybody and don't go anywhere"

Was he scared Michele had "awakened"?
Is a lovely lunch the same as a deadly cocktail?
I think this message is a response to something that happened during the one hour MM is not accounted for.

The same afternoon MM attended a fair acting so bad that another employee filed a complaint. MM insisted on having his picture taken to show he was there.....

Suffocation would have left evidence of such I've wondered if he held her face under the running faucet and that is why the water was bloody?

Been wondering about that, too. I guess it came from her face after the surgery.

 

[Zuri]

OT Slightly: I hope I don't sound like a snotty know it all when it comes to the medical stuff. The medical stuff is in my wheelhouse and very little else is. I am not an expert on anything and my posts are basically from my frame of reference.

For the more complicated questions that have been posted that I responded to, I have gotten help from my MD husband as I don't know all that pathophysiology stuff. I will ask him questions about autopsy reports because I need to understand them from a medical perspective so that I can translate them into layman terms. It has gotten to the point where he groans and asks me which case I am on now.

 

[popsicle]

Thanks. Good points and beneficial information. Destruction of the remaining pills and the inventory was part of the plan, I think.

I just read that if one crushes the tablets of a drug like Oxycontin, it loses its time-release properties and is absorbed all at once. A one-time dose of only 160mg of Oxycontin can be lethal to a person who has not built up a tolerance to it. Also, of course, there are significant contraindications to taking this drug (and others like it) in combination.

Oxycontin now has properties causing it to be very difficult/near impossible to chew or crush. Also, she wasn't on oxycontin but oxycodone.

 

[Bravo]

Oh I totally agree to that too! lol I'm sorry, my bad. Sometimes the way I write things get messed up if I'm doing too many things at once. I don't think he was doing CPR before the neighbors arrived NOR while they were there. If he had and was doing it properly she would have regurgitated that fluid well before the EMTs arrived.

LOL Welcome to my world HA!!! No worries. No need to apologize. It made me second guess that Marty perhaps wasn't observed doing CPR by the neighbor. Believe me I have mixed up facts many times with cases. Sometimes I wonder if I dreamt something LOL