UT - Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 #7

[dovebar]

No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

 

[gwenabob]

No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

It's like watching a slasher flick and screaming at the actors to get out of the house! Easy for us to see from the outside. Not so easy for those involved.

 

[AlexisFresca]

I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

 

[AlexisFresca]

Those coins are lovely, and about time!

And for those who want to accuse the LDS church of being anti-women, please keep in mind the Utah was the first state in which women voted! (Wyoming was the first to allow women to vote, but Utah had an actual election first). They were way ahead of the pack on women's suffrage.

For those who don't know, my sister was murdered by her husband in 1980. She was 22. Guess what? She was not LDS. She was Methodist. Her husband? Muslim. Where were their religious leaders when the abuse was going on? Please, everyone. This happens all over regardless of religion. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Gwenabob, I'm so sorry to hear that that happened to your sister. I hope he was tried and convicted, and not able to escape prosecution or even flee the country for that matter?

You make a valid point, in that, it happens regardless of religion and no religion is exempt (though I do feel Muslims have the least respect for women, imo).

Without knowing what was said at these counseling sessions, its all speculation on our parts. That aside, I think its obvious that anyone seeking counseling through a church will be encouraged to stay in a marriage and that the counseling will obviously be Biblically based. The success of any counseling, imo, weighs heavily on the participants being honest and telling the truth about why they are there, and being sincere about wanting to get help/taking the steps necessary to make the improvements in their relationship. Without that, all efforts are in vain and the best course for action cannot be suggested with complete accuracy jmo.

 

[hollyblue]

Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

Susan and Josh were seeking marriage counselling from the church. Susan more so than Josh. He apparently quit going. Just my feelings, but I think the counselor either didn't have the full picture of their scenario, or was a total airhead. I think he was trying to give Susan advice on how to accomplish her goal--whether to pray and fast, and if that didn't work to have a back up plan in place----not knowing the scope of Josh's behavior and the father's involvement.

ETA: I think Susan was just a young woman wanting her marriage to work.....sooo badly. How could she really tell the counsellor of the hideous things he had done and expect him to help her save her marriage? This had been going on for more than half the marriage. I'm sure she thought--if I just have kids. If I just do this....maybe when I.........She had been putting all the earnest on herself for so long and was wanting him to man up.....Something he still can't do. I don't think Susan told all and I think Josh hid himself from the counselor...he wasn't going to church any longer...

 

[GrandmaTo4]

AFAIK, it was only her co-workers at Wells Fargo who knew about the secret journal that she kept in her desk. I have not heard of any other friends outside of work who knew of it first hand.

Did they know about THESE things? >>>>>>

How about Susan being forced to ride a bicycle 14 miles on a busy road back and forth to work?

How about Susan not being able to buy fruits and vegetables for her small growing boys?

How about Susan receiving a belligerent tongue-lashing from Josh -- for buying shoes for Charlie and Braden when their shoes were outgrown?

How about Josh undermining Susan's reasonable and proper discipline of the boys?

How about Josh attempting to bribe the boys to NOT go to church with Susan?

How about Josh making Susan and the boys WALK back and forth to church in subfreezing weather when the van was sitting in the garage unused?

How about yelling at Susan to "SHUT-UP" for no good reason, in front of their friends?

How about Josh refusing to allow Susan to have a set of car keys?

How about Josh refusing Susan the use the home computer?

How about Josh changing the pin number on the bank accounts so Susan couldn't have access -- even though it was Susan who earned the majority of the family's money -- and who earned ALL the money during plenty of their marriage?

How about the one time (at least) that Josh got PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE with Susan?

Those incidents did NOT come from the journals at Wells Fargo -- they came from Susan's friends and family from personally witnessing them or first hand information.

As far as I can tell, the only person who cared enough about Susan and had big enough cojones to advise her to kick selfish-abuser-Josh to the curb was Tim Peterson. He's the ONLY one of the bunch who has my total respect and admiration!

Perhaps if ALL the rest of them hadn't been so MALE-SUPPORTIVE Susan would be alive today!

 

[GrandmaTo4]

I was unaware that this much detail had been released about her journal, could you give your source please?

I've read all of those details from several sources, Bartleby. They have all been discussed here on Websleuths several times, too.

I'll google to see if I can find the original source. It was early-on in the investigation, IIRC.

Someone on the SL Trib comments site claimed they had a relative who worked at Wells Fargo who told him/her that Josh had come storming into the Bank demanding to know everything contained in Susan's Journals. I don't think anyone believed that! But it seemed well known that the journals DID exist.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

(bbm)

AlexisFresca -

Susan AND Josh were going to a marriage counselor through the Church. Josh was reluctant to go at all and told Susan she was crazy -- i.e., mentally unbalanced, I assume.

Susan went to a mental health therapist on her own to find out if she could possibly be *crazy.* The therapist told her she was NOT!

Josh DID go to the Church Marriage Counselor with Susan - but probably not for every session.

Susan confided to LDS neighbor Tim Peterson regarding the ongoing Church Marriage Counseling and it was Tim Peterson who thought their marriage was soooo bad it was not salvageable. HE, Peterson, recommended that Susan divorce Josh.

It's been stated over and over that no one liked Josh. It appears that everyone knew he was extremely controlling and obnoxious. Why then was he treated with such kid-gloves deference?

Even after his totally lame alibi when Susan went suddenly missing he still got waaay more support than anyone can logically explain.

He's STILL DEFENDED even though everyone KNOWS Josh won't cooperate AT ALL with LE to find his missing wife -- or do a single darn thing to look for her -- or help her be found -- or allow Charlie & Braden to see their Cox or Graves families >>>>>
"Josh would NEVER drink alcohol! -- Josh would NEVER patronize a strip joint -- Josh would NEVER leave the boys in the van alone!"

R E A L L Y ? :waitasec: :banghead:

 

[grayjay]

Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

Tim Peterson was a friend and not the counselor. I wanted a friend who received a direct death threat from a spouse to get out of the marriage. It took a year. It was hard to watch, and I think that's what happened with Tim.

No clue here what happened with the goals thing, but a goal is so far from what either of them conjured up, it's mind boggling to me.

 

[GrandmaTo4]

No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

(bbm)

AMEN ! _ dovebar - EVERYTHING you said is sooo TRUE ! _ :clap:

Thank you very much for your support regarding perceived bashing which isn't !

The real question is WHY didn't Susan tell her closest ward friends and family about the extent and totality of the serious abuse -- and her realistic FEARS about its escalation?

Her friends and family definitely knew about some of the abuse because it was they who made the information available for the Cox - Gifford press conference:

"Shelby Gifford, spokeswoman for Susan Cox Powell's family, said, 'The family now knows without reservation that Susan was a victim of domestic abuse in her own home.' They also say her husband, Josh Powell, was controlling."

http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d1-Susan-Cox-Powell-Victim-of-domestic-abuse-experts-say-controlling-behavior-a-red-flag

Like you, I would hope that from now on, no one will discount the plight of a controlled woman who's treated with less respect than a 19 Century slave.

There were enough red flags regarding Josh's treatment of Susan that if a person sees only 3 or 4 similar red flags with another controlled woman, I would hope they would intervene in every way possible to help keep the woman safe.

None of us want another woman hurt or killed by a cowardly wimp of a man who no one dares to challenge for whatever reason!

imho

 

[PickieChickie]

Susan and Josh were seeking marriage counselling from the church. Susan more so than Josh. He apparently quit going. Just my feelings, but I think the counselor either didn't have the full picture of their scenario, or was a total airhead. I think he was trying to give Susan advice on how to accomplish her goal--whether to pray and fast, and if that didn't work to have a back up plan in place----not knowing the scope of Josh's behavior and the father's involvement.

ETA: I think Susan was just a young woman wanting her marriage to work.....sooo badly. How could she really tell the counsellor of the hideous things he had done and expect him to help her save her marriage? This had been going on for more than half the marriage. I'm sure she thought--if I just have kids. If I just do this....maybe when I.........She had been putting all the earnest on herself for so long and was wanting him to man up.....Something he still can't do. I don't think Susan told all and I think Josh hid himself from the counselor...he wasn't going to church any longer...

Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?

 

[gwenabob]

Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?

sigh. Pickie, no, that is complete balderdash!!!!!

 

[grayjay]

My own daughter isn't a Mormon. There are plenty of religions that say something strong about the evils of divorce. Plus, just like in the case with Josh and Susan, she has internalized her own opinions about divorce from a young age by watching what happens with close friends and family members who have gone through it and it scares her. Plus, by the time a Josh type character has finished breaking down her self-esteem and squandered all the assets along with all family goodwill, she hasn't a pot to piss in, so to speak.

If it's a challenge to phrase your position without blaming the Mormons, maybe it's your own bias that's in the way.

 

[Bartleby]

I've read all of those details from several sources, Bartleby. They have all been discussed here on Websleuths several times, too.

I'll google to see if I can find the original source. It was early-on in the investigation, IIRC.

Someone on the SL Trib comments site claimed they had a relative who worked at Wells Fargo who told him/her that Josh had come storming into the Bank demanding to know everything contained in Susan's Journals. I don't think anyone believed that! But it seemed well known that the journals DID exist.

I agree it is publicly knowledge from early in the case that a journal existed, and discussed on this website, but I was unaware that any details of the contents of the journal had been publicly released. If you or anyone can find a link to the contents, I'd be interested. It won't help Susan now, but it might help other victims of domestic abuse to recognise the symptoms and get out safe.

 

[PickieChickie]

I agree it is publicly knowledge from early in the case that a journal existed, and discussed on this website, but I was unaware that any details of the contents of the journal had been publicly released. If you or anyone can find a link to the contents, I'd be interested. It won't help Susan now, but it might help other victims of domestic abuse to recognise the symptoms and get out safe.

Susan wrote note she kept in her desk: "If I end up dead, it won't be by suicide."
Reporter also states, "You can see Josh Powell's hands and they appear very red."
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nER_uvjjBtU[/ame]​

 

[Bartleby]

Tim Peterson was a friend and not the counselor. I wanted a friend who received a direct death threat from a spouse to get out of the marriage. It took a year. It was hard to watch, and I think that's what happened with Tim.

No clue here what happened with the goals thing, but a goal is so far from what either of them conjured up, it's mind boggling to me.

Tim is an ex-neighbour and friend to Susan, and someone who had gone through marriage counselling himself. My understanding is that Susan spoke to him first about her marriage concerns and fears of Josh's behaviour, and he strongly suggested she leave Josh immediately. She didn't want to for whatever reasons, but did attempt to start marriage counselling sessions, which Josh initially attended and supported, but like everything Josh does, he failed to carry through his commitment.

IMO any marriage counselling that is not fully supported by both husband and wife is doomed to fail. Both partners have to accept they have a problem in their marriage, and want to fix the problem, before there's any hope of success.

As suggested a couple of pages ago, I would expect each partner to attend separate sessions until the counsellor feels they can be brought together for mutual sessions. Then, and only then, could any goals be set which have a hope of success, as the partner who has to achieve the goals obviously has to acknowledge the need for the goals.

Josh's failure to attend sessions, as he has failed at so many other tasks, doomed the marriage guidance plan. It takes two to steer the marriage boat, and Josh didn't seem to feel the need to face up to their problems.

From his POV, everything was fine. He had a wife who would support him financially, produce babies for him, and allow him to hold the family purse strings and van keys. Why would he wish to change this cosy situation? He didn't care whether Susan was actually happy in their marriage, that much is obvious from the patronising tone of the susanpowell.org website.

 

[LaLaw2000]

On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

 

[PickieChickie]

On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

I posted the article about the expert in the "Josh Powell SusanPowell.org" topic. I don't agree either. I looked at that photo very carefully and I can see, for one thing, a jagged edge along the outside of Susan's pant leg on the leg that Charlie is sitting on as though someone "drew" crop line around the photo to plant it into the snow scene or to merge the photo of Josh and Braden into the photo of Josh and Charlie.

I had a friend who is 52 years old and employed at a college as a graphic artist look at the photo and she wrote, without knowing the history behind the photo, "If this photo is not fake, I'll fall off my chair."

 

[Gin]

On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

I agree with you.
Beyond that, I seriously doubt any authentic expert would put their reputation on the line without much more information, especially when the source is someone like JP.

 

[grayjay]

On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

I am a member of National Assoc. of Photoshop Professionals and have taken over two thousand photos of campfires and over 50,000 photos in the past two years, and published in numerous photography books.

I performed the same forensic tests on Josh's photo, and found it is one he could rightly be proud to have produced. He used too much flash, and clearly is a beginner, but has spent quite a chunk of his ill-gotten gains on some fancy equipment. I think he'd botch it big time if he tried to fake a fire, and one look at his purple ribbon thing shows off his level of photoshop skills quite accurately.

Fire is pretty hard to fake, and the expert explained the lighting issues very well. In fact, that is why I have created such a huge reference of fire photos for my own work.