Identified! VA - Annandale, WhtFem 245UFVA, ~60, 'NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin', Dec'96

[Tssiemer]

What kind of contact? Was there a police report or some cop guessing?


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[poppygirl]

Wow - I think Shirley is the best lead we've had...could be her...and that she had contact with LE Dec. 19 is a super creepy coincidence...it's only a day off and we know errors can be made in documentation/reporting...

 

[poppygirl]

Do we know the eye color of our UID?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I wonder what Shirley and her mother fought about?

 

[pokypuppy67]

She certainly has a strong resemblance to Shirley Sprang, but our lady was found on December 18 and per Namus, Shirley had contact with LE in Nebraska on the 19th. BBM.

Left home in a taxi after getting in an argument with her mother on 06/16/1990.Family has had no contact with her since 06/16/1990. Law enforcement in Lincoln,NE had contact with her on 12/19/1996. No contact with her since 12/19/1996 by anyone https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/14199/0/

I suppose it's possible that somebody stole her ID, if she threw it away somewhere else when she decided to kill herself, but it does seem like a big problem.

It could be a typo, or if they crossed midnight they might not realize what day it was. A human mistake is more likely than two different people's' faces lining up so perfectly. If you look at the shape of their noses, the shape and length of their upper lip, the shape of their heads and faces, the location of the separation of their teeth, and how precisely Jane Doe's glasses lay on Shirley Sprang's face...it all matches.

I just want to say that I didn't alter the proportion at all, as that would invalidate the result. I just lined up their right eyes and everything else fell right into place.

 

[carbuff]

What kind of contact? Was there a police report or some cop guessing?


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That usually means there's a traffic ticket or arrest on record, and would normally mean her ID was presented. It might or might not mean they ran her fingerprints. I would guess not, since Namus says she doesn't have prints.

But both women have DNA in the system, so there should have been a match on that if it was Shirley.

 

[carbuff]

It could be a typo, or if they crossed midnight they might not realize what day it was. A human mistake is more likely than two different people's' faces lining up so perfectly. If you look at the shape of their noses, the shape and length of their upper lip, the shape of their heads and faces, the location of the separation of their teeth, and how precisely Jane Doe's glasses lay on Shirley Sprang's face...it all matches.

I just want to say that I didn't alter the proportion at all, as that would invalidate the result. I just lined up their right eyes and everything else fell right into place.

BBM

Unfortunately, in my time here I've seen at least a dozen perfect photographic matches that turned out not to be matches at all, and a number of matches where it's being generous to say the recon and the photo were approximations of each other, even when the recon was based on a post-mortem photo as this one is.

 

[FiveFelines]

That usually means there's a traffic ticket or arrest on record, and would normally mean her ID was presented. It might or might not mean they ran her fingerprints. I would guess not, since Namus says she doesn't have prints.

But both women have DNA in the system, so there should have been a match on that if it was Shirley.

I did a little research on Shirley and found two notices in the local paper for traffic violations before she went missing. My guess is that she wasn't the best or most careful driver and this is what the LE contact was in 1996.

I also couldn't find any personal or family ties to VA, not that she had to have any, necessarily. I think Shirley resembles this Doe, but I doubt they are the same person because of the time discrepancy.

 

[FiveFelines]

It could be a typo, or if they crossed midnight they might not realize what day it was

Yes, but Nebraska is even farther from Virginia than Wisconsin. Even if it was a day off, she would have had to have gotten to VA in less than 24 hours. But, you said you had submitted Shirley, correct? Can't hurt.

 

[Tssiemer]

Yes, but Nebraska is even farther from Virginia than Wisconsin. Even if it was a day off, she would have had to have gotten to VA in less than 24 hours. But, you said you had submitted Shirley, correct? Can't hurt.

They could be related!


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[Pinkruby]

Cora Andersen?

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/16987/19/

 

[pokypuppy67]

That usually means there's a traffic ticket or arrest on record, and would normally mean her ID was presented. It might or might not mean they ran her fingerprints. I would guess not, since Namus says she doesn't have prints.

But both women have DNA in the system, so there should have been a match on that if it was Shirley.

Like I said, the DNA testing hasn't come back yet.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Yes, but Nebraska is even farther from Virginia than Wisconsin. Even if it was a day off, she would have had to have gotten to VA in less than 24 hours. But, you said you had submitted Shirley, correct? Can't hurt.

Why would she have to have been in Nebraska at the time? She could have been anywhere. They did have cell phones back then.

It doesn't make sense to rule somebody out without first considering EVERY possibility. You presented only one possibility, that she was in Nebraska at the time.

 

[poppygirl]

Why would she have to have been in Nebraska at the time? She could have been anywhere. They did have cell phones back then.

It doesn't make sense to rule somebody out without first considering EVERY possibility. You presented only one possibility, that she was in Nebraska at the time.

Agree completely...i,'m still amazed at the coincidence of the dates being so freaking close along with the LE contact.

Why even have contact with LE in Nebraska of all places? If it was to say ' I'm alive, don't want to be found, leave me alone.'. The why still listed as missing? Note her last seen date was updated to that last LE date...not sure what to make of that. Could our UID have had a trusted friend contact LE the day after she k il led herself? She'd already gone to great lengths to hide her identity...

Nothing to lose by doing a DNA comparison at this point.

 

[pokypuppy67]

I did a little research on Shirley and found two notices in the local paper for traffic violations before she went missing. My guess is that she wasn't the best or most careful driver and this is what the LE contact was in 1996.

I also couldn't find any personal or family ties to VA, not that she had to have any, necessarily. I think Shirley resembles this Doe, but I doubt they are the same person because of the time discrepancy.

Shirley does a lot more than just "resemble" Jane Doe. All of her features line up precisely. You really believe that another person who was missing around the same time period, was the same gender, the same race, the same age, had a nose the same shape, a head the same shape, an upper lip of the same shape and length -- that all this is coincidence? And all because the person who entered the information in couldn't possibly have made a mistake?

One must realize, and I truly say this with all due respect, that information gets entered wrong all the time. Even between the missing databases online, the information posted often varies from site to site. It is important to understand that some pieces of reported data could be incorrect, and to know which pieces of information are more significant and are more likely to be accurate than others.

 

[FiveFelines]

Shirley does a lot more than just "resemble" Jane Doe. All of her features line up precisely. You really believe that another person who was missing around the same time period, was the same gender, the same race, the same age, had a nose the same shape, a head the same shape, an upper lip of the same shape and length -- that all this is coincidence? And all because the person who entered the information in couldn't possibly have made a mistake?

One must realize, and I truly say this with all due respect, that information gets entered wrong all the time. Even between the missing databases online, the information posted often varies from site to site. It is important to understand that some pieces of reported data could be incorrect, and to know which pieces of information are more significant and are more likely to be accurate than others.

Whoa. No need to get defensive. I'm just asking questions about this possible match. Didn't mean to make you feel attacked.

I mentioned Nebraska because Namus notes that she had contact with LE there. You're right, that doesn't necessarily mean that she was in Nebraska at the time, though. She could have called them or vice versa. And yeah, Namus and other databases do have mistakes all the time, and the date could certainly be wrong.

I do think she *resembles* Annandale Doe. I have to agree with Carbuff, though. I have seen a lot of possible matches that looked like spitting images of Does (including this one) that have turned out to be wrong, even when their features and everything line up. Did you already submit Shirley? If so, I'll be eager to see what happens. Hopefully, we have a match.

 

[rosesfromangels]

The DNA will tell the tale.
it will be good to give this woman her name back.
God bless.

 

[apearn]

I mentioned Shirley on post #513 but I thought DNA would be automatically checked.....no?
Anyway, I had done some digging and there was a Sprang in her town (son/nephew age) who has an arrest report that included info on him being in a bit of trouble in the early 1990s. There is also an obituary for a woman with that surname who looked a lot like both Shirley and doe's reconstruction but not as much like the morgue image IMHO. The obit had a DOB closer to being a sibling age rather than a parent or child but then you'd think the women would have different married names.
With the lengths this woman went through to cover her tracks I wouldn't be surprised if she paid someone to call the police with some benign report in her name to help throw anyone off her tracks.

 

[pokypuppy67]

BBM

Unfortunately, in my time here I've seen at least a dozen perfect photographic matches that turned out not to be matches at all, and a number of matches where it's being generous to say the recon and the photo were approximations of each other, even when the recon was based on a post-mortem photo as this one is.

See, this is interesting because it all comes down to how our individual, and very different brains, perceive what we see as well as to how we classify things. And of course all that is at the very essence of what we do here. I want to ask, what did you mean in terms of "perfect photographic matches"? Did you mean that the two people looked exactly alike? Or was there a quantitative comparative process performed on the faces? And by that I mean something like what I did, or some kind of other measurable comparison?

I'm with you on the reconstructions. Just looking at a case where numerous reconstructions are formed, it's always amazing how greatly they can differ. I think it was the Lady in the Dunes case that had about ten to twelve recons by a few different artists, with the intent of portraying age regression. Between all of the recons it looked like there were three or four distinctly different people. It can be discouraging at times when you don't know if the recon comes even close to looking like the victim did.

I know that when they have a recognizable body they often photograph the body and then photoshop it to make it look less disturbing, and more like a drawing or a sketch. In those cases, the visual information is there and so a competent reconstructionist should be able to present it without affecting it in any way.

I am on the fence about that technique, however. In some ways I would rather see the unaltered morgue photo because, with the understanding that damage to the body could have altered certain aspects of it, I know that it is as close as we can get to an accurate comparison. Or at least, in most cases. And I think the chances, with all else being equal, are greater that we will be able to identify the person. However, some of the post-mortem photos are so painful to look at...and I especially wouldn't want that person's loved one to have to live the rest of their lives with that image in their head.

I've come across many of those too, where the match appears solid but isn't. Case in point, a missing 35 year old man named Edwin and a reconstruction of a victim wearing a Superman shirt. I can't remember all the details. But both were from the same state, missing and found dates perfectly plausible, the reconstruction appears IDENTICAL to Edwin. However, DNA ruled them out. On the other hand, though, one victim was recently matched (was it Paulette Jaster, Houston Mom's match?) by a specific pattern of three freckles common to both cases). So, an entire face match (quantitatively matched, not just by sight) is very strong evidence of identity.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Whoa. No need to get defensive. I'm just asking questions about this possible match. Didn't mean to make you feel attacked.

I mentioned Nebraska because Namus notes that she had contact with LE there. You're right, that doesn't necessarily mean that she was in Nebraska at the time, though. She could have called them or vice versa. And yeah, Namus and other databases do have mistakes all the time, and the date could certainly be wrong.

I do think she *resembles* Annandale Doe. I have to agree with Carbuff, though. I have seen a lot of possible matches that looked like spitting images of Does (including this one) that have turned out to be wrong, even when their features and everything line up. Did you already submit Shirley? If so, I'll be eager to see what happens. Hopefully, we have a match.

I'm sorry if I seemed defensive to you. That wasn't the case at all. I didn't feel attacked. I was just surprised that you couldn't see the logic of it the way I did. But that's the way life is. Different people see things differently. I am curious, though, what did you mean when you said "even when their features and everything line up"? What testing measures were taken to line everything up? If the process was done accurately and yielded measurable positive results then the identity should have been a match. Do you remember any of the individuals who failed to match this kind of test?