Identified! VA - Annandale, WhtFem 245UFVA, ~60, 'NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin', Dec'96

[carbuff]

Did you look back through this thread to see how convinced we were that our unidentified Christmas lady was a woman named Judith from New York? Man, that was a letdown. I'm not good with faces so I generally leave that to the people who are, but to my eye, she looks more like Connie than like Shirley (I don't see the nose thing y'all were talking about with Connie).

I can think of two possible explanations for the LE contact in Nebraska. One is that the date on the report was misread or something when it was entered in the system, or the date-of-offense field was filled in with the date of the report by mistake, or something along those lines. (It's unlikely to have been a phone call, I think, because as you say she wouldn't be listed as missing in that case.)

The other is that as part of her careful planning, she likely cleaned out her apartment and disposed of her property, probably with an excuse like, "I'm moving to Florida," or some such. That would have included disposing of her credit cards and other identifiers. I'm thinking she probably went out and bought that nice outfit on the last of her credit cards and then just threw them in the trash. If she did that, her ID could easily have wound up in the hands of somebdy who subsequently got a traffic ticket in Nebraska.

So yeah, it is distantly possible. I'm just saying that it's a major strike that has to be taken into account.

The DNA will tell.

 

[carbuff]

P.S. Yes, matches done with overlay techniques that seemed to show feature by feature congruence, sometimes even similar teeth, that turned out not to be matches. I'll try to find some specific cases for you -- it's interesting to see how close two complete strangers can be.

 

[FiveFelines]

I'm sorry if I seemed defensive to you. That wasn't the case at all. I didn't feel attacked. I was just surprised that you couldn't see the logic of it the way I did. But that's the way life is. Different people see things differently. I am curious, though, what did you mean when you said "even when their features and everything line up"? What testing measures were taken to line everything up? If the process was done accurately and yielded measurable positive results then the identity should have been a match. Do you remember any of the individuals who failed to match this kind of test?

Oh, I meant the overlay you did. It looks good, but I've seen other overlays that looked spot-on, with everything lining up perfectly, that were not matches. I want to say I've definitely seen them in the Buckskin Girl thread, but elsewhere as well. I don't know what testing measures were used, so I cant compare them to your overlay here.

It is funny how we all see things differently. I do agree that her date of contact is very interesting (12/19/96). I wish we knew what type of contact it was.

 

[FiveFelines]

Pokypuppy67, have you done any sleuthing into Shirley's past? I see that both her parents are now deceased. I think she has siblings, although I haven't found their names. Not sure if she ever married or had kids, but Sprang was her maiden name. Would be great to know a little more about her, particularly if we can tie her to VA in some way. And I'd love to know where she might have been in those years between her disappearance and Annandale Doe's suicide!

 

[carbuff]

Considering the lengths to which our Jane seems to have gone to hide her identity, it might be the fact she had no ties to Virginia that led her there. Thinking nobody would make the connection, maybe.

 

[shadowdancer]

I have begun to pick my way through this case, one thing that has occurred to me is the level of planning involved. This lady probably sorted out everything in her life before she took her own life. I bet she sold her house, car and got rid of all of her possessions. She was clearly a kind and considerate soul, even thinking to leave money for her cremation. She probably donated her possessions to charity and sent the money from her house, savings etc to charity in the form of an anonymous cheque.

No loose ends were left behind, I'd bet. All bills paid, all contracts cancelled. She wouldn't have wanted anyone to miss her, so she probably arranged her life in such a way that people thought she had emigrated or something similar.

Her clothes suggest she was quite well off. Maybe she wasn't, she may have been quite ordinary, but she decided to treat herself to a special outfit for her final day on earth. She would have had the money from selling her house and/or other large assets. Many people who know they are going to die have a special outfit that they want to be buried/cremated in, maybe a nice new posh outfit from an upmarket store was Jane Doe's way of doing this. Dressing herself ready for her cremation. No wonder she didn't want an autopsy. She had prepared herself for her final journey and she didn't want her arrangements to messed about with.

For these reasons, I would suggest that this wasn't a typical outfit for Jane Doe to wear. It was special.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Pokypuppy67, have you done any sleuthing into Shirley's past? I see that both her parents are now deceased. I think she has siblings, although I haven't found their names. Not sure if she ever married or had kids, but Sprang was her maiden name. Would be great to know a little more about her, particularly if we can tie her to VA in some way. And I'd love to know where she might have been in those years between her disappearance and Annandale Doe's suicide!

She has a brother who is a good deal younger than herself. Also, she had a lot of money (so could afford expensive things), and if I remember correctly she left it behind in a bank account. That's really all I know, though. I got this from one of the detectives working her case in Wisconsin. Oh. He also said she had never had kids. That info came from her parents, I assume. The validity of it...who knows? I do know that the detective had already submitted her DNA, which is probably toward the bottom of a tall stack somewhere, because he's been waiting forever.

 

[pokypuppy67]

:scared:

P.S. Yes, matches done with overlay techniques that seemed to show feature by feature congruence, sometimes even similar teeth, that turned out not to be matches. I'll try to find some specific cases for you -- it's interesting to see how close two complete strangers can be.

Thank you, Carbuff. I would be really intrigued to see those.

:fence:

 

[rosesfromangels]

Good discussion, and yes, we all see things differently.
The other thing I have learned is that we sure as heck look *VERY* different post mortem, for the most part.
Carl does amazing recons. He seems to be our best eye for matches.
The recent case of the young woman found on top of a train emphasized how different we can look post mortem. In life, she was quite pretty. Her post mortem was very ghoulish. I would have never connected the two together except for the ear shape.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Did you look back through this thread to see how convinced we were that our unidentified Christmas lady was a woman named Judith from New York? Man, that was a letdown. I'm not good with faces so I generally leave that to the people who are, but to my eye, she looks more like Connie than like Shirley (I don't see the nose thing y'all were talking about with Connie).

I can think of two possible explanations for the LE contact in Nebraska. One is that the date on the report was misread or something when it was entered in the system, or the date-of-offense field was filled in with the date of the report by mistake, or something along those lines. (It's unlikely to have been a phone call, I think, because as you say she wouldn't be listed as missing in that case.)

The other is that as part of her careful planning, she likely cleaned out her apartment and disposed of her property, probably with an excuse like, "I'm moving to Florida," or some such. That would have included disposing of her credit cards and other identifiers. I'm thinking she probably went out and bought that nice outfit on the last of her credit cards and then just threw them in the trash. If she did that, her ID could easily have wound up in the hands of somebdy who subsequently got a traffic ticket in Nebraska.

So yeah, it is distantly possible. I'm just saying that it's a major strike that has to be taken into account.

The DNA will tell.

Okay, Judith who and Connie who? Do you remember their last names?

 

[rosesfromangels]

Judith Guerlin (sp?) And elizabeth connie converse.
I was positive it was judith. Had to eat my hat over that one.

 

[pokypuppy67]

:floorlaugh:

Judith Guerlin (sp?) And elizabeth connie converse.
I was positive it was judith. Had to eat my hat over that one.

Okay. Yeah, I can see some similarities with Judith but her nose doesn't match up at all. Connie, I couldn't find.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Okay. Look closely at Shirley's nose vs. Jane's nose. One head is just slightly higher than the other but you can still see the noses well. They are quite unusual and are identical to each other.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Connie was an aspiring folk singer who mysteriously vanished. Brilliant fascinating woman. Google her. She has a thread too.

 

[ThePhantom]

I thought she was Connie. I've been feeling kind of dejected that it wasn't her, both because now I'm left not only still wondering who the lady at the cemetery is, but where Connie is as well. Frustrating and at times disheartening.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Okay. Look closely at Shirley's nose vs. Jane's nose. One head is just slightly higher than the other but you can still see the noses well. They are quite unusual and are identical to each other.

Im not skilled in these comparisons. I have to see ears.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I thought she was Connie. I've been feeling kind of dejected that it wasn't her, both because now I'm left not only still wondering who the lady at the cemetery is, but where Connie is as well. Frustrating and at times disheartening.

We will eventually figure this one out. I know we will.

 

[FiveFelines]

She has a brother who is a good deal younger than herself. Also, she had a lot of money (so could afford expensive things), and if I remember correctly she left it behind in a bank account. That's really all I know, though. I got this from one of the detectives working her case in Wisconsin. Oh. He also said she had never had kids. That info came from her parents, I assume. The validity of it...who knows? I do know that the detective had already submitted her DNA, which is probably toward the bottom of a tall stack somewhere, because he's been waiting forever.

Thanks! I did see her name come up for unclaimed funds in her savings account.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Thanks! I did see her name come up for unclaimed funds in her savings account.

Wow, Five! I'm impressed!!! Where on earth did you get that information? You've got some VERY KEEN researching skills.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Hmmm....so Poky, what all do we know about Shirley? This is sounding more and more interesting....

What did she do for a living? We think our Christmas Tree lady was an accountant, or some precision oriented buttoned down type of work.