VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[Jennifer17]

I'm impressed.

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Not so many of us to police, though. An island almost as big as the US, with a less than a tenth of the population,

 

[rsd1200]

Australia. We have many unique wildlife species (especially Koalas) who have no defence mechanisms against imported predators. Our cats are not allowed out at night. Of course some irresponsible people do let their cats out, but most don't.

We have all kinds of feral cat colonies around here. Have hoarding issues too. I think that they have been trying to trap some of them, and neuter/spay/notch/release. We had an elderly couple here who had no children and they doted on the feral cats. They would go all over the county, each day, and feed the cats. It was discovered that this couple had oodles of tame ones in their home and the conditions inside were dire to say the least. These were well-off folks in the community. They got in over their heads and it almost cost the man his leg (conditions in the home). They are not allowed to own anymore cats.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Not so many of us to police, though. An island almost as big as the US, with a less than a tenth of the population,

Yes, but the US won't even attempt half of this. That's the difference, and it's not because it's unenforceable, but because of individual rights, even when those rights cause great suffering.

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[Jennifer17]

We have all kinds of feral cat colonies around here. Have hoarding issues too. I think that they have been trying to trap some of them, and neuter/spay/notch/release. We had an elderly couple here who had no children and they doted on the feral cats. They would go all over the county, each day, and feed the cats. It was discovered that this couple had oodles of tame ones in their home and the conditions inside were dire to say the least. These were well-off folks in the community. They got in over their heads and it almost cost the man his leg (conditions in the home). They are not allowed to own anymore cats.

We don't have that. We don't have starving animals roaming the streets. Yes, some may have be put down, but it stops the cycle.

 

[Bernina]

Respectfully, I must disagree about disaster dogs being dumped on rescues because they don't do what they were meant to do. In my experience (and I think there are some stats out there from various shelters that support this, but I'm not sure if I can find them online at the moment), dogs do not get dumped in great numbers for this reason. If a herding dog is in the shelter, for instance, it's most likely not because it would not herd or is a disaster dog. More than likely it's because the owners bought it for the wrong reasons (liked the appearance or temperament, but were not prepared to give it a job as these dogs desperately need and to provide it with the proper exercise and mental stimulation). The dog is not broken nor is it a disaster. It was not properly provided for, and it now needs a home that can provide for its mental and physical needs.

I agree that the "rescue" you adopted the wolf hybrid from is a disaster, but I question the ethics of adopting hybrids out at all after working with a sanctuary that handles many and no longer adopts unless they are extremely low content. (Incidentally, I fostered a high content one for a very short period and fell in love, but he absolutely was a wolf and he belonged at a sanctuary. I only did so in order to keep him from being killed while they made space. I considered adopting him but did not have the money to put into creating a very large Ft. Knox type of situation on my property for him so that his needs could be met.)

There are many red flags with rescues and breeders to watch out for, but that's a whole other discussion.

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I was referring to my rural area. I come from a long line of farmers, ranchers, etc. I have had nothing but HC WD, but other than the one rescue, I got them all at 4 weeks before they bonded with the "pack". I have also bred Samoyds, Shelties, had my occasional Dobbie, shepherd, Mal, Pom, Setter, Retriever, and currently a Huskey who runs with my WDs.
Any dog out here who, unprovoked, savages or slaughters other domestic animals, some several hundred pounds larger, is not fit to pass on to a family with children or elderly. They have shown they can kill. Doesn't matter if they're put through temperament evaluations, training, whatever. There are many, MANY dogs out there that don't have those issues that deserve homes.

And I have never had to "Fort Knox" my 5+ acres. 4' Field fence and to strands of hot wire, never had an escape. The cubs come here very young, the other animals become part of their pack, and the property becomes their territory. I have raised 5 in the last 23 years. The only things they have ever killed are skunks and coyotes, threats to their territory and the rest of their "pack". But their just fine licking off a new born mini horse.......

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I was referring to my rural area. I come from a long line of farmers, ranchers, etc. I have had nothing but HC WD, but other than the one rescue, I got them all at 4 weeks before they bonded with the "pack". I have also bred Samoyds, Shelties, had my occasional Dobbie, shepherd, Mal, Pom, Setter, Retriever, and currently a Huskey who runs with my WDs.
Any dog out here who, unprovoked, savages or slaughters other domestic animals, some several hundred pounds larger, is not fit to pass on to a family with children or elderly. They have shown they can kill. Doesn't matter if they're put through temperament evaluations, training, whatever. There are many, MANY dogs out there that don't have those issues that deserve homes.

And I have never had to "Fort Knox" my 5+ acres. 4' Field fence and to strands of hot wire, never had an escape. The cubs come here very young, the other animals become part of their pack, and the property becomes their territory. I have raised 5 in the last 23 years. The only things they have ever killed are skunks and coyotes, threats to their territory and the rest of their "pack". But their just fine licking off a new born mini horse.......

The sanctuary feels that very tall fences are important to contain their hybrids, and I felt he should have lots of running space, so we would have been looking at a lot of new, high fencing to both contain him and give him the exercise he would need. He moved like a wolf and would have been capable of scaling the average fence. I was not looking at barbed wire or electric fence, but what we all believed was necessary to contain something that had wolf in it. It was more a matter of making a responsible decision from the outset and not because we believed he would savage other animals, although he certainly may have. I don't know because the sanctuary he went to is very proactively in containment so that they don't have to find out the hard way if one of their hybrids is going to be destructive. He lived a long life, finally off the chain he came from, and passed away about 2 years ago from cancer at the sanctuary.

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[bears10]

Thinking of the Stephens family this holiday season. I’m sure the past few days have been incredibly hard for them. The thread seems to have turned a bit into a pit bull/BSL/personal experience thread, so just want to put it on track for a sec and take a minute to give condolences to the family who lost their daughter due to the attack.

Regardless of anyone else’s experiences and beliefs, according to LE, these two dogs mauled Bethany to death. A young woman is gone. We can debate whether pit bulls are evil, or bc they just have a bad reputation, Or if they were neglected (fwiw I’m disappointed in some people’s posts regarding her father “refusing to care for them” when we have no idea what his situation is as far as I know), but that’s not going to change that she was mauled by her dogs and is no longer with us.

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[Lilibet]

Thinking of the Stephens family this holiday season. I’m sure the past few days have been incredibly hard for them. The thread seems to have turned a bit into a pit bull/BSL/personal experience thread, so just want to put it on track for a sec and take a minute to give condolences to the family who lost their daughter due to the attack.

Regardless of anyone else’s experiences and beliefs, according to LE, these two dogs mauled Bethany to death. A young woman is gone. We can debate whether pit bulls are evil, or bc they just have a bad reputation, Or if they were neglected (fwiw I’m disappointed in some people’s posts regarding her father “refusing to care for them” when we have no idea what his situation is as far as I know), but that’s not going to change that she was mauled by her dogs and is no longer with us.

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Thanks, bears. Such a thoughtful post. And such a sad time for her family. Condolences to all who loved her...and her dogs. :heartbeat:

 

[bears10]

Thanks, bears. Such a thoughtful post. And such a sad time for her family. Condolences to all who loved her...and her dogs. :heartbeat:

Thanks lili and happy holidays to you and yours. Hopefully until more info is released about her dad, people will ease up on “he refused to care for them” or “how did he not notice she was gone” type comments. I don’t see many, but enough to make me cringe. Her father could be disabled. Or he could genuinely not be a dog person, and she vowed to come and take care of the dogs daily.

Her friend that was interviewed early on seems to have stirred the pot. This is also the same friend who swore that the dogs would only kill with kisses. LE seems to think otherwise. So I take all statements from said “friend” with a grain of salt. Especially if she has anything to do with the shelter Bethany worked at.

Anyway, my heart goes out to her father. I can’t imagine seeing what he saw, or at least knows. Terrible.


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[bears10]

So this may be inappropriate to post and I’ll probably get some heat for it. But.

My husband was abused by his mother. She used to beat them with hot wheel tracks, make them walk barefoot on hot pavement, and also straight up just hit them. My husband never once raised a hand to his kids. So I can’t subscribe to the thought that neglected dogs are excused when they kill or hurt.

If a neglected child kills another child, we don’t excuse it. It’s surprising to see so many people defend the actions of aggressive and killer dogs. Especially a breed that has over and over again displayed aggressive behavior.

My brothers huge Rottweiler was his bestie. A guy and his dog. Nothing in the dogs life changed. Yet he attacked another dog in the neighborhood, leading to a lawsuit. He also came at my nephew. After years of no aggressive behavior. Just like people snap, animals can snap too. Please don’t try to rationalize my brothers former dogs behavior, bc there was literally no change. My mother lived there as well and can confirm there was no change. It happens and it’s very unfortunate.


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[Stanly]

For the most part, you'll find that the big, ole giants, are, wonderful dogs and every bit as good, or better, companions, than small dogs. No dog is perfect though they all have their quirks. The thing is that these big, powerful dogs require a different type of owner. It really isn't the dogs fault. Little dogs bite too. A lot. It's just that no one usually dies from a Peekapoo attack. The dogs may have been giving off signals for weeks. There is a language barrier there, and neither of our species have perfected overcoming it.

No one I know has a pit for status reasons or protection, and probably half of my close friends from the animal rescue world have a pit or two. I have only ever rescued and fostered many, not owned one, because I already had my own dogs at the time I started, and stayed at a personal ownership level of two. Most of the people I am close to who have pits, as well as those who adopted my fosters, did not set out to get a pit bull. There was a personal connection made with that particular dog and that's how it happened, the same way I always end up getting a dog.

The reasons for me choosing to rescue a pit were the same reasons I chose to rescue any dog. There was a need (often they were on death row), they had good temperaments, had a health issue that needed to be addressed outside of a shelter, or someone I knew saw something special in them that made them beg me to help. The first one was a gorgeous mix, and after I found him a home, I halfway hoped he would be returned for some reason so that I would have an excuse to keep him as my own. There were two that I adopted out that I miss to this day.

There are many, many people in animal welfare who end up with pits for the same reasons any of us end up with any dog. Many of them probably never imagined having a pit bull, but they have a way of working their magic on people. Overall, they are too active for me these days. But even in my current situation, if I could have a couple of those dogs back today, I would take them in a heartbeat.

I'm also going to point out that the people who adopted our pit bulls were more devoted than the average adopter in two ways. First, I can't recall any of the pits being returned because it didn't work out or the dog did something. Second, most of the folks who adopted the pit bulls have stayed in close contact with me. I think they are just so smitten that they love to send updates. These are devoted and responsible owners, most of whom are now so in love with the breed that they will likely always have a pit in their lives.

I haven't handled a pit in a few years because I gave up dog rescue for health reasons and focus on cats and other animal welfare programs now (although I still have my own dog - I just can't handle a bunch of big dogs now). But I absolutely know that there are many good pit owners and that most pit bulls are the iconic nanny dog that pit defenders talk about. There are not a bunch of insane people out there defending killers. There are a lot of responsible and knowledgeable dog owners out there who are simply willing to defend their dog's right to live.

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I think you are right rsd1200. However, im not talking about big dogs, im talking about pit bulls. Its nothing to do with size, its the breed.

Vmmking, i respect your views and i believe you have a kind heart for helping dogs that need the help. Though, i feel Bethany must have thought the same and thought she had that 'connection' too.

I am a BIG animal lover with 4 cats, african snails and fish. Ive had chickens, dogs (collie and retriever), geckos and bearded dragons and all have come from unwanted homes. But, i just dont get this 'connection' that people seem to think they have with wild or typically aggresive animals. Im thinking Tillikum, Steve Irwin (RIP [emoji22]), Tiger keepers... they all have links with dangerous animals and people think they can change these wild animals behaviour. Its in their breed. Going back to pitbulls, people can think they have this 'connection' with it and the dog could be loyal to them....but put it near anyone else or a child and theres a risk it could snap. Thats what appears to happen in most cases, children visiting people or family with these dogs. But then you could have that dog by your side at all times, stick a muzzle on it, avoid going near loads of people, stick it in a cage or whatever but what kind of life is that for the dog? I dont understand why people would want a dog that they would have to be watching everything they do with it and visitors coming over etc...

All MOO and im sure i will get some defensive comments back but no matter how hard someone tries to explain the love they might feel and the good deeds for helping this type of dogs, i can never understand. I have the scar to prove it.

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[Deleted member 158085]

I think you are right rsd1200. However, im not talking about big dogs, im talking about pit bulls. Its nothing to do with size, its the breed.

Vmmking, i respect your views and i believe you have a kind heart for helping dogs that need the help. Though, i feel Bethany must have thought the same and thought she had that 'connection' too.

I am a BIG animal lover with 4 cats, african snails and fish. Ive had chickens, dogs (collie and retriever), geckos and bearded dragons and all have come from unwanted homes. But, i just dont get this 'connection' that people seem to think they have with wild or typically aggresive animals. Im thinking Tillikum, Steve Irwin (RIP [emoji22]), Tiger keepers... they all have links with dangerous animals and people think they can change these wild animals behaviour. Its in their breed. Going back to pitbulls, people can think they have this 'connection' with it and the dog could be loyal to them....but put it near anyone else or a child and theres a risk it could snap. Thats what appears to happen in most cases, children visiting people or family with these dogs. But then you could have that dog by your side at all times, stick a muzzle on it, avoid going near loads of people, stick it in a cage or whatever but what kind of life is that for the dog? I dont understand why people would want a dog that they would have to be watching everything they do with it and visitors coming over etc...

All MOO and im sure i will get some defensive comments back but no matter how hard someone tries to explain the love they might feel and the good deeds for helping this type of dogs, i can never understand. I have the scar to prove it.

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I was not explaining a connection with a known dangerous animal. Someone had asked why anyone would choose a pit bull, and I attempted to explain. I have never gone into a shelter, seen an aggressive pit, and decided to take it to rehab!

Some of your examples fall into the category of mistakes made because of human ego. Some of the people who work with wild animals, as well as some dog trainers and rescuers, end up with their egos growing a bit more with each successful interaction with a wild, dangerous, or problematic animal. In the case of rescuers, sometimes it's strictly naiveté, but I have seen ego come into play as well.

One of the things rsd1200 was getting at, I think, is that ALL animals have the potential to revert to primal behavior. She also points out the communication barrier between us and animals. And this is where we sometimes, out of naivete, ego, or flat out lack of knowledge or paying close enough attention, miss the cues they give us that would prevent many bites and attacks.

But what you are describing with dogs who need to be muzzled or kept away from other people is not the typical situation with most large dogs that are often considered dangerous breeds. Yes, if a dog has to be muzzled around others or kept locked up, in all likelihood they should be euthanized, no matter what the breed.

There are so many nuances that are being missed here. You seem to be saying that rotties, pits, and certain other breeds can never be trusted. In fact, in all of these cases, there were red flags that were ignored. In this case, I believe it was Pac-man. He clearly had a history that was ignored, and was an unstable dog.

If we follow all the issues back and back and back, starting with the neglect that was happening, we arrive back at the beginning to when someone chose to ignore his aggression history in his other home. He was known to be unstable.

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[oceanblueeyes]

One of our most precious dogs we have ever had was our timber-wolf named Nikita. Our son bought her when she was 6 weeks old the year before he entered the Marine Corps so she remained with us for years. She was stunningly beautiful and we always believed she had more wolf in her than suspected. She was the wisest dog we have ever owned but she was just as loving and so very gentle.

Before we had her spayed she had two pups (Blaze and Bear) who were born butterballs and so healthy. At the time we had another little dog who had come on our property which was pregnant. Of course we adopted Misty too like we have done for so many others through the years who had been abandoned.

When she had her puppies Nikita was nursing her pups since they were born around the same time. We noticed Misty was pushing her adorable 5 puppies away when they wanted milk. We took her to the vet and he told us we would have to nurse her babies for her which we planned to do. But that didn't pose any problem for Nikita. One day we saw her go in where Misty and her babies were and one by one she picked each of the puppies up and put them with her healthy puppies. She cared for and loved them as if they were her own, and they were so tiny in comparison to Blaze and Bear. Once they were old enough we took Blaze and Bear to live on my in law's home/farm and they are still there.

Nikita lived to be 17 and it was one of the hardest days of our lives. Our big Marine son, cradled her, and cried like a baby not wanting to let her go.

It would amaze me each time Nikita would come wanting love and affection because when she was on her hind legs her head towered over mine but it seems like she could gracefully lift herself up in midair and she would ever so gently put her two front paws on my shoulders as if she somehow knew her weight could push me over. Every time I looked into those beautiful dark eyes I knew she was such an intelligent animal filled with so much wisdom and a love so deep for all of us that I felt we probably would never quite understand its depth. With Nikita you could feel her beautiful soul surround you. Its hard to explain. She was such a special dog and Blaze and Bear have her gentle spirit too.

We have had so many special pets over the decades that have captured our hearts forever and they are/were all unique in their special way.

I miss the ones who have passed on but it fills my heart with happiness knowing how many pets we have had that became such an important part of our family.

 

[Bernina]

The sanctuary feels that very tall fences are important to contain their hybrids, and I felt he should have lots of running space, so we would have been looking at a lot of new, high fencing to both contain him and give him the exercise he would need. He moved like a wolf and would have been capable of scaling the average fence. I was not looking at barbed wire or electric fence, but what we all believed was necessary to contain something that had wolf in it. It was more a matter of making a responsible decision from the outset and not because we believed he would savage other animals, although he certainly may have. I don't know because the sanctuary he went to is very proactively in containment so that they don't have to find out the hard way if one of their hybrids is going to be destructive. He lived a long life, finally off the chain he came from, and passed away about 2 years ago from cancer at the sanctuary.

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#1 issue with mid and high content wolf hybrids: They don't rehome very well, and some never do.

Wolves in the wild have an established territory and won't leave that area, as a pack, unless game is scarce, human encroachment, or the pack "banishes" a single member (typically male but sometimes female) from the territory.

If you take on a very young wolf hybrid, keep it for several years on the same property, then rehome it, you'll need Ft. Knox just as a matter of common sense and liability. The 1st thing it wants to do is get back to it's "den" and it's "pack.

And then it's just a crap shoot with WD's anyway. You don't know whether the domestic or wild genes are going to be dominant in it's behaviour and temperament. You can have a HC WD who genetically looks like a domestic dog, but has all the "thinking" of a wolf. The reverse is also true.

 

[rsd1200]

I was not explaining a connection with a known dangerous animal. Someone had asked why anyone would choose a pit bull, and I attempted to explain. I have never gone into a shelter, seen an aggressive pit, and decided to take it to rehab!

Some of your examples fall into the category of mistakes made because of human ego. Some of the people who work with wild animals, as well as some dog trainers and rescuers, end up with their egos growing a bit more with each successful interaction with a wild, dangerous, or problematic animal. In the case of rescuers, sometimes it's strictly naiveté, but I have seen ego come into play as well.

One of the things rsd1200 was getting at, I think, is that ALL animals have the potential to revert to primal behavior. She also points out the communication barrier between us and animals. And this is where we sometimes, out of naivete, ego, or flat out lack of knowledge or paying close enough attention, miss the cues they give us that would prevent many bites and attacks.

But what you are describing with dogs who need to be muzzled or kept away from other people is not the typical situation with most large dogs that are often considered dangerous breeds. Yes, if a dog has to be muzzled around others or kept locked up, in all likelihood they should be euthanized, no matter what the breed.

There are so many nuances that are being missed here. You seem to be saying that rotties, pits, and certain other breeds can never be trusted. In fact, in all of these cases, there were red flags that were ignored. In this case, I believe it was Pac-man. He clearly had a history that was ignored, and was an unstable dog.

If we follow all the issues back and back and back, starting with the neglect that was happening, we arrive back at the beginning to when someone chose to ignore his aggression history in his other home. He was known to be unstable.

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That was what I was trying to say. You explained it a bit better though. I agree, too, that if a dog has to spend its life muzzled, and constantly crated, (I believe in crate training but not making your pet LIVE in one), then euthanasia is far more compassionate. It would be what I'd prefer, if I were in that particular dog's place. Quality of life, over quantity of years, is my motto.

 

[Cryptic]

Thanks lili and happy holidays to you and yours. Hopefully until more info is released about her dad, people will ease up on “he refused to care for them” or “how did he not notice she was gone” type comments. I don’t see many, but enough to make me cringe. Her father could be disabled. Or he could genuinely not be a dog person.... .

Or he concluded that the dogs were potentially dangerous and did not want to be around them.

 

[rsd1200]

Or he concluded that the dogs were potentially dangerous and did not want to be around them.

He may very well have been wary of them but maybe babysat other dogs in her past, and not minded, so hated to say no, and then he had them there. My father took care of my first Rott until I could make a space for her to run, when I moved the first time. She was extremely well-behaved and I could speak a command and she was on-point. Dad could call her and she'd mind him. However, that was over 30 years ago and my parents are in their 80s now. They are both very wary of my current Rott, and the only thing she's ever done was come up to be petted, and cold-nosed my mother... She's nearly twice the size of my first girl so that doesn't help. When my parents babysat my first one, they were also more spry. If my current dogs knocked them down, while I was away, and they broke a hip?! I'd never get over it. So I don't even ask them to care for her. We have a wonderful kennel here, and I take both big dogs there, if I'm vacating. They send me photos and videos while I'm away, too. So I enjoy seeing those, and seeing that they are well. That's just me, and my situation, though.

 

[keeleydoll]

We don't have that. We don't have starving animals roaming the streets. Yes, some may have be put down, but it stops the cycle.

I’m in Virginia and in my city stray or loose dogs and cats are pretty rare, we may see two dogs roaming in a given year and nearly every one has gotten out of their home or fence somehow. Our shelter is run by our police department and also serves an adjacent county. I just looked and there are something like 2 dogs currently for adoption and maybe 4 cats. So not everywhere in the US has this problem.


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[keeleydoll]

I think you are right rsd1200. However, im not talking about big dogs, im talking about pit bulls. Its nothing to do with size, its the breed.

Vmmking, i respect your views and i believe you have a kind heart for helping dogs that need the help. Though, i feel Bethany must have thought the same and thought she had that 'connection' too.

I am a BIG animal lover with 4 cats, african snails and fish. Ive had chickens, dogs (collie and retriever), geckos and bearded dragons and all have come from unwanted homes.

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RSBM

Maybe O/T but it struck me as a bit funny, the UK has banned these “dangerous dogs” (Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and Fila Brasileiro) whereas in the US giant African Snails are banned.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

RSBM

Maybe O/T but it struck me as a bit funny, the UK has banned these “dangerous dogs” (Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and Fila Brasileiro) whereas in the US giant African Snails are banned.

Ya gotta draw the line somewhere...

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