VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #7

[PAXIMUS]

The murderer must pay for his crime it is the law of the land. The Commonwealth is a great supporter of the DP. I am thankful for this.
I just wonder how it would make you feel if some kid from Virginia came to your neighborhood and murdered your kids, brothers and sisters.
I will not fight with you or anyone else over the Bible. I respect your beliefs or non-beliefs. Enough said.

It would not be easy to forgive someone who did that but after 40 years of living the one thing I have found to be consistently true is that which takes effort is always the most rewarding. Therefore I would work very hard to forgive that person and put in the effort needed to do that and I think the reward would be much greater for me than to take the easy way out and thoughtlessly just demand that persons head on a platter.

 

[NativeGirl]

LOL the music is meaningless and has no bearing on my life, I like punk music because I have always been sort of rebelious towards conventional ways of thinking. If you listen to the lyrics of the Sex Pistols you will understand what I am saying.

Let me see if I can explain this from a Buddhist POV. Sam's actions are only one half of an incomplete circle, your reaction to his actions are what will determine whether that circle completes itself and starts anew and continues an endless cycle of killing. If your reaction is anger, negativity, retribution etc then the circle will complete itself and continue on and on and on with no end, killing with beget more killing which will beget more killing.

Now if you want to put an end to that then you need to rid yourself of all negative emotion and feelings and detach yourself from those sort of things and understand why Sam did what he did. You see while most people ask themselves "why do people like Sam do what they did" I do not need to ask myself that because I know why he did what he did, I know exactly why he did what he did, its no mystery to me at all. Life is suffering, it is misery and we all react to that in our own way, Sam did what he did because that is what his karma dictates and the only way to put an end to that is to have compassion for the suffering and misery of all beings, to rid yourself of all negativity and need for revenge and to show love and compassion so that you can become a peaceful enlightened being and ensure that the endless loop of murder and mayhem doesnt complete itself and finally and end to all the suffering and misery that we all experience will come about.

See in the Buddhist philosophy those who call for Sams head on a platter will likely BECOME Sam at some point and do exactly what he did you will suffer the consequences of those negative thoughts one way or another because that stuff is like cancer it eats away at you very slowly and consumes you and there is nothing you can do to change that except rid yourself of it by showing compassion for the suffering and misery of all mankind and teaching others to do so, this is the only way we will bring a final end to this madness, the murder and the mayhem.

An eye for an eye leaves two men blind, how is this beneficial to anyone? I dont get it. With this mentality we live in a world full of blind people, the blind leading the blind, in fact that is the world we live in today and I simply propose that we try another way because what we have done up to this point has gotten us nowhere and its time to entertain the idea that we have been wrong all this time.

I dont understand why someone who has compassion for others is creepy, dont you think that is a problem that you see me that way. I dont agree with you and I think your way of thinking is sort of dangerous but I dont find you creepy or anything.

Glen Beck is creepy, I am not creepy.

I would like to know why you think my way of thinking is dangerous?? I could of been in Sam's shoes if I wanted.. I was once into Horrocore but I got away from it.. I made it out.. I knew if I killed someone what would go down..

It's just seems like you are all for Sam and don't care about the people who once had Air??

 

[PAXIMUS]

I would like to know why you think my way of thinking is dangerous?? I could of been in Sam's shoes if I wanted.. I was once into Horrocore but I got away from it.. I made it out.. I knew if I killed someone what would go down..

It's just seems like you are all for Sam and don't care about the people who once had Air??

Well for the same reason you think I am creepy, people who want to kill other people seem dangerous to me.

 

[NativeGirl]

Glen Beck is creepy, I am not creepy.

He's Hot! LOL

 

[NativeGirl]

Well for the same reason you think I am creepy, people who want to kill other people seem dangerous to me.

so Sam is Dangerous to you??

 

[AndresEscobar]

so Sam is Dangerous to you??

Sam is dangerous. But, if I had to represent him, i could do it. I wonder how and why he did what he did, and I'd like to ask him that.

 

[dangrsmind]

In Buddhism there is the notion of "skillful means". The idea as I understand it is that in any situation there is the right or perfect action. If you have skillful means, you always perform exactly the right action at exactly the right moment. And all of your actions make the world better, end suffering and increase happiness. Of course for normal people this is merely an ideal to be imagined or perhaps sought after. And maybe, if you are skillful enough, reality itself will tremble in your presence.

So I ask the question, is the death penalty an example of skillful means? It is the law in Virginia currently; that much is clear. But does it make the world a better place? How would we decide?

And if in fact we were to discover (for example by scientific research) that this is a non-skillful practice, why would we continue to do it?

 

[ziggy]

Wow your version of Jesus is pretty pissed off.

Of course for those of us that don't believe in new testament you've just listed some of the sorts of things that seem contradictory and make us wonder about other less self contradictory systems such as Buddhism.

Angry Jesus Scares Me...

Not me. I kind of long for angry God: I know some people I'd like the wrath to rain down on!!!! I often cry out loud, "Vengeful God of the Old Testament Where Art Thou???" It's usually when followed by a comment about not caring if so and so got hit by a bus...I'm just kidding.

No seriously though angry Jesus was cool...because he experienced all of our emotions he just handled them with the ultimate mastery.

I don't think Jesus would be against the death penalty. He would definitely want the accused to repent and be forgiven, but death - no biggie.

I also find it amusing that when good points are brought up using multiple scriptures, some refute it because it is apparently not a complete work (which I tend to agree with). However, it doesn't work for me to negate what IS in the Bible by using what isn't. Also, CONCEPTS in the Bible are pretty clear even if exact translation is not to perfection. It's like when I meditate and I get WHOLE thoughts that appear without separate words. I think the Bible has that devine ability to not be lost in translation. I'm not a Christian but I do like my Christians and my Buddists and so on. I find there is more of a common golden thread of wisdom in all religions, but it gets lost in the arguments and the focus on the differences.

Andres is right, no one is going to have a "come to Jesus moment" (that's the best witty thing I can come up with right now) and change their mind on the DP, SO, we should have some actual trial stuff to talk about in a few days and until then please remember:

Emma
Debra
Mark
Mel


Taken brutally and tragically. Their killer surely must pay some sort of debt for this.

 

[peace_gurl]

Well for the same reason you think I am creepy, people who want to kill other people seem dangerous to me.

( DM I am talking about my family, shame on me.)

Pax a family member killed her mom (my family) and her step-dad. It was premeditated.
She had planned it for days. With a plea she took life. A lawyer helped her find a loop and out of jail she came. Got pregnant, had two kids, hung herself. Now her little children will pay a hell of a price for the sins of their mom. She is my family and I think she should have paid with her life. When a person decides to take a life they should expect to give a life.

 

[PAXIMUS]

so Sam is Dangerous to you??

Sam is ignorant and I have compassion for those who are ignorant. We are all ignorant, a few of us are aware of our ignorance and that perhaps sets us apart a little but the fact remains that it is this ignorance that leads to things like what Sam has done because he (we) dont understand how things really are and how things really work. Sam was just a actor in a karmic drama that had to play itself out, the victims were also suffering from the effects of their own karma and those who have hatred and anger towards Sam will further suffer the consequences of the karma that comes a long with that. And it will continue on and on and on until we realize how ignorant we are and decide to do something about it and the first step is to stop letting your emotions control you and start having compassion for everyone else who hasnt yet learned how to do that.

Sam should be puinished but I also think we should have some compassion for him, his ignorance led him down this path and to me thats really sad, the whole thing is sad because it doesnt have to be this way but everyone just continues on and its wash, rinse and repeat.

 

[PAXIMUS]

In Buddhism there is the notion of "skillful means". The idea as I understand it is that in any situation there is the right or perfect action. If you have skillful means, you always perform exactly the right action at exactly the right moment. And all of your actions make the world better, end suffering and increase happiness. Of course for normal people this is merely an ideal to be imagined or perhaps sought after. And maybe, if you are skillful enough, reality itself will tremble in your presence.

So I ask the question, is the death penalty an example of skillful means? It is the law in Virginia currently; that much is clear. But does it make the world a better place? How would we decide?

And if in fact we were to discover (for example by scientific research) that this is a non-skillful practice, why would we continue to do it?

Very well said.

 

[ziggy]

Hey Pax - Glenn Beck is OFF LIMITS man!!!!:furious:

OK, just kidding again, but I can't help but love quirky conservatives and I think he's really funny. Now you think I'm creepy I know; I am.

I can understand the Buddist path, I really can and I wish everyone could be a pacifist etc. and the collective consciousness could really change our world. Then the realist in me thanks all of you who can because I know you are essential and keeps searching...

I am just thankful that a great deal of information has been shared here and I hope everyone can continue to agree to disagree; even though it's frustrating at times...ego and all.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Hey Pax - Glenn Beck is OFF LIMITS man!!!!:furious:

OK, just kidding again, but I can't help but love quirky conservatives and I think he's really funny. Now you think I'm creepy I know; I am.

(very respectfully snippped)

dude, glenn beck sucks.

 

[Heroine]

I think arguing religion is like beating a dead horse. Everyone will think what they always have and everyone thinks they are right. So it's pretty pointless. I'm a Christian and we believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. They are not all the same person in my religion, but in some christian religions they are. So you see even in the same religious category they don't all believe the same. It's pretty debatable.
Either way, to debate religion just causes problems so I try to steer clear of it.
I don't care what anyone else believes. No offense guys.
Sorry if this comes off wrong to anyone. I mean no offense to any of you or your religions.
Edited to say that I don't mean I don't care what you believe in general. I do care about your opinions. Yeah maybe all that came out wrong.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Hey Pax - Glenn Beck is OFF LIMITS man!!!!:furious:

OK, just kidding again, but I can't help but love quirky conservatives and I think he's really funny. Now you think I'm creepy I know; I am.

I can understand the Buddist path, I really can and I wish everyone could be a pacifist etc. and the collective consciousness could really change our world. Then the realist in me thanks all of you who can because I know you are essential and keeps searching...

I am just thankful that a great deal of information has been shared here and I hope everyone can continue to agree to disagree; even though it's frustrating at times...ego and all.

Yea its not personal for me so as long as everyone else can just approach this as adult discussion then we are ok because I dont take any of this personal no matter how heated it gets tomorrow we come back here and we do our thing and its a new day you know? No big deal to me at all really.

I am thankful to have you all to have these heated discussions with, its fun to see how others feel about these matters and in the end our differences are what make us all special.

 

[PAXIMUS]

dude, glenn beck sucks.

Beck is an opportunist of the worst kind. If there was an actual audience for pinko commies on talk radio he would be the first in line to show his love for Marx and Engals. He and Rush and Coulter are just telling people what they want to hear.

 

[claudicici]

Well, I had said nothing about society being in decay. That said, I am disturbed by people who seem to get off on fantasizing about the type of punishment offenders receive. This thread doesn't have a lot of that, but if you want to see some pretty disturbing stuff go to some of the older Emily Olten / Alyssa Bustamante threads. Keep in mind, the girl they're gloating about freezing at night, eating terrible food, and screaming should be put to death is 15 years old.

Americans love blood. They love it. They want to rally against people who commit murder for ending a life or lives, and in the same breath argue for ending that persons life. They want to quote the "eye for an eye" stuff in the bible, and ignore all the other stuff that runs contradictory to it.

Now, in regards to your disease analogy, I don't particularly agree with it. I think it is difficult to disagree with my statement that there is "something" wrong with people who commit violent crimes. I think that your criticism of the rehabilitation part of the prison system is related to rehabilitation being de-emphasized.

I do think that "bloodlust",that anger you feel for someone that hurt you or someone you love is completely natural and understandable,however I don't think it's something you should feel good about....that's what I think: of course people are going to feel that way but shouldn't you have the sense to say it's not right to feel that way?...am I not putting myself on the same level with someone that commits a crime of passion if I want to make myself feel better by hurting somone else?....that's another thing where I think "dark" art or music helps,to me it really helps when I feel that way...
oh,yeah and "the eye for an eye" quote to my knowledge is not in the christian bible even though many christians seem to feel that way,it's in the koran...

 

[PAXIMUS]

An eye for an eye is in the OT in Hebrew as ayin tahat ayin which means if you injure someone's eye then you are required to give them your eye as compensation. The original Hebrew DOES NOT indicate this as capital punishment, the english translated bibles have taken it the WRONG WAY, it is simply a way the Jews explained what we in modern times would refer to as compensatory damages. It does NOT mean that if you stab someone in the eye they have a right to stab you in the eye back, this is NOT what is intended by the phrase ayin tahat ayin in Jewish tradition it is simply an easy way of explaining what happens when you commit a TORT against another person you are required to compensate them for that tort.

Has nothing at ALL to do with capital punishment and I find it amusing that people who dont understand Hebrew believe it does, in fact it had nothing at all to do with CRIMINAL LAW in the Jewish tradition and was in fact a reference to CIVIL TORT and compensatory damages. This is the reason we dont read the bible literally and understand it is allegory, metaphor etc, just simple ways of explaining complex ideas.

 

[claudicici]

Right.

Simple answers to complicated questions are bad. As another example...

Consider the case of gun crime. Everyone agrees that gun crime is bad so many people want to make owning guns illegal, to restrict ownership, enforce stricter licensing, etc. However the reality is that gun control does not reduce gun crime. What does is locking up gun criminals who tend to repeat their crimes.

See http://www.minnpost.com/worldcsm/2010/01/11/14842/targeting_guns_to_reduce_violent_crime and http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...more-crime-Not-in-2009-FBI-crime-report-shows

I don't understand why in the world someone would have the need to have a gun in their home.
I had a gun put to my head once.It's not a good feeling.
My cousin was shot by her husband and he shot himself during a domestic dispute thing....if the gun wouldn't have been around,I doubt he would have grabbed a knife and stabbed her and himself ,it's so much easier to pull a trigger....I also can't handle the thought of all these guns being in homes with children....
if you want something for self defense a taser works just as well....

 

[claudicici]

I think arguing religion is like beating a dead horse. Everyone will think what they always have and everyone thinks they are right. So it's pretty pointless. I'm a Christian and we believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. They are not all the same person in my religion, but in some christian religions they are. So you see even in the same religious category they don't all believe the same. It's pretty debatable.
Either way, to debate religion just causes problems so I try to steer clear of it.
I don't care what anyone else believes. No offense guys.
Sorry if this comes off wrong to anyone. I mean no offense to any of you or your religions.
Edited to say that I don't mean I don't care what you believe in general. I do care about your opinions. Yeah maybe all that came out wrong.

I like talking about religion and politics and stuff like that,I think it's important and interesting to hear other opinions....doesn't mean anyone is going to change theirs but might get a better understanding where the other person is coming from....