GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[Tallula.Belle]

I dunno maybe I'm in the minority but I don't find it that strange. I asked my husband about this because he's in law enforcement and was also a volunteer firefighter for years starting in high school. He has friends that are still volunteer firefighters and they all have scanners in their homes. He said that if these guys were volunteer ff's or just had scanners in their homes like so many have suggested, it would be a smart place to look. He said its one of the first places they are told to check when getting a report of a missing child and doing an initial search of the property. If they easily saw the septic tank and those poles next to it I think its normal. Also, even if they weren't any type of official first responders but were locals and knew there was a septic tank and saw it there it makes sense to check out

I agree 100%. I have never found it strange either.

 

[Tallula.Belle]

I'm starting to think Noah did not die Saturday night or early Sunday morning.If he had died then,I don't believe they would have left marijuana in the house when they planned on calling the police later.Because the marijuana was there, I believe Noah died sometime after they left for work.The marijuana most likely belonged to the father,because mom obviously did not know where it was at.

Why would she not know where it was? He said he smoked pot frequently at home and we are talking about a trailer that isn't that big.

 

[AnnaGrace]

Welcome wvsoccermom!

 

[AnnaGrace]

I agree 100%. I have never found it strange either.

Now that we know that Orly's post may or may not be accurate since he is no longer with the station due to reporting differences, but we don't know that it's specifically this one, I'm not sure what I think. One thing that I do think is that if it's accurate, the lid was not under sod or bolted down since they said it popped off like Tupperware. No mention was made of them carrying shovels or tools. Just thinking out loud and probably shouldn't be.

 

[lillybell]

Now that we know that Orly's post may or may not be accurate since he is no longer with the station due to reporting differences, but we don't know that it's specifically this one, I'm not sure what I think. One thing that I do think is that if it's accurate, the lid was not under sod or bolted down since they said it popped off like Tupperware. No mention was made of them carrying shovels or tools. Just thinking out loud and probably shouldn't be.

I don't know what to make of that report now either, IF it is true about the two men arriving and searching the septic tank, I don't think it was covered over with dirt when they got there.
Why would they think to search that area if it didn't look disturbed?
It certainly sounds like the lid was not securely fastened with screws if it just popped off.
Oh I wish we knew more details already....

 

[AnnaGrace]

I hope more details do come out soon. I think that I think too much on what little has come out as facts. The first sentence in my last post is probably the longest I've made in my life. I go to sleep thinking about Noah's case and wake up thinking about it. Maybe it's time for me to take a few days off and wait for more details from LE or the court system.

 

[LadyMaryB]

Migraines are the worst! I hope you feel better eace:

 

[LadyMaryB]

Does anyone know when the toxicology tests might come back?

Typically a forensic autopsy report takes 6-8 weeks, however the most complex cases can take up to 90 days. I've read here that the sheriff asked for it to be rushed but somehow, I missed that in the news. It happens!

I replied to another comment that I'm trying to keep in mind the Commonwealth’s Attorney's office has one shot, and one shot only, to get this right, so I'm glad to see there haven't been leaks, press conferences by defence attys, we're not being told every detail...and it's been a real bummer! I'm not liking it one bit :tantrum: but I understand & respect the process. Darn it!

 

[Luvrosco]

You know...at first, I really did think Noah had wandered off and was lost or had maybe been abducted.

After his body was found, I thought and hoped that this was an accident, that his mom was, as some suggested, well intentioned but exhausted from working nights and being with the kids by herself during the day.

Even after the parents were arrested, I continued to hope most of Noah's short life was good and his parents loved him. That his parents had made horrible mistakes that led to their son's death, but they loved him and were grieving tremendously.

I tried not to make assumptions about what was going through their heads.

But it's getting harder and harder to think anything but the worst about them. Why don't they (through their lawyers) shut up? Why would they think they deserve it, given what is publicly known about the case?

I wonder how much contact they have in jail. If they both got bond, would they be permitted to talk to and see each other?

I thought the same thing at first,too. I thought Noah's mother was just an exhausted mom that made a bad decision. I don't know the answer if they would be allowed to see each other if they get bond. I hope they don't. I don't believe for one minute that poor Noah wound up in the septic tank accidentally.

 

[Schmaley]

This isn't an illness that crept up over the last night or two- several respiratory problems that had reached serious stage. No excuse for not taking her to either her pediatrician or the emergency room for treatment. Money obviously is too tight, as PT has hired a private attorney and AW received an extention to decide if she would hire atty or appointed a public defender (apparently she didn't know if she was indigent). Too trifling to bother and neglected their baby's medical needs.

Snipped by me. This is a sore subject for me. Reading statements like yours about the respiratory issues feels like someone is pushing on a bruise. My son was born at home with the help of two midwives and a doula who did his well checks and newborn care until 4 weeks. He had his first cold at 4 days old. My midwives checked him once a week and re assured me it was a cold. It would come and go. When he was 6 weeks old, he seemed to be getting worse. I took him to urgent care and he had a 104 fever (it happened to be my first day back at work and he felt warm but not terrible) so I was shocked. The pedi checked him and said it was an ear infection and it was a relief because he didn't need the tests he would have had if they hadn't found the problem right away. Took him home and gave him meds. He wasn't nursing, very lethargic. I called that night and the nurse acted like I was over reacting and said to let the antibiotics work. The next day I stayed home and he was getting worse. No wet diapers. Day three I had to go back to work. It was a matter of paying my mortgage so I had to leave him with my mother in law. She called me that morning and said he needed to go to the ER. I brought him in and he had very serious pneumonia. It was awful and came on very quickly. I still feel the pain of him being in the hospital for 9 days. It was tremendously horrible. But I really feel like respiratory stuff is hard for parents. Colds can evolve in the matter of two days. I have seen it.

Anyways, I know your post was written with good intentions but I hope you are able to entertain the possibility that respiratory issues is a vague term and they can come on quickly. That's all.

 

[Aeronomy]

I want to preface this by stating I don't think Noah fell in the tank and the lid secured itself, even if it was secured in a Tupperware fashion as stated by the two men in Orly's report.

Now that being said, I can't imagine having a plastic septic lid like that and not having it covered by a thick layer of sod/grass -- especially with kids. If we had something like that in our backyard as children it would have been used as home plate, where the mother of Mother-May-I stood, a place to play King of the Hill, and in all likelihood, a thing for us to jump up and down on "just because". How could that type of ground-level lid ever be considered safe?

 

[mamame]

Aeronomy gets kids.

 

[atthelake]

Aeronomy gets kids.

Lol was about to Google the word aeronomy :blush:

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sparky]

Long post apologies!
I agree about AW likely not getting bond but typically, selfish, self-absorbed people don't commit suicide, and just since her arrest, AW has certainly given indicators that she fits that bill:

She objected to media in the courtroom because "this is the worst thing that has ever happened to her and she doesn’t want her life to be the topic of everyone’s dinner conversation," and PT objected because "I don’t want my life to be their news story.” (it's all about her, even just after Noah was found dead in a septic tank)

The Commonwealth’s Attorney stated medical personnel from DSS inspected the baby and found she had “fairly serious respiratory problems." For whatever reason, neither AW nor PT could get their baby to a doctor for not just a respiratory problem, but serious respiratory problems (plural). This isn't an illness that crept up over the last night or two- several respiratory problems that had reached serious stage. No excuse for not taking her to either her pediatrician or the emergency room for treatment. Money obviously is too tight, as PT has hired a private attorney and AW received an extention to decide if she would hire atty or appointed a public defender (apparently she didn't know if she was indigent). Too trifling to bother and neglected their baby's medical needs.

The judge denied bond because Noah was found dead and serious charges: "reckless disregard for human life" and "serious injuries"... caused by either ""disfigurement, a fracture, a severe burn or laceration, mutilation, maiming, forced ingestion of dangerous substances, or life threatening internal injuries."
AW appealed because there's really no good reason she can't stay with a family member and his young daughter while out on bond that she totally deserves!

I'm wondering if you're suddenly defending AW the last few days because it's not the popular thing to do. But you contradicting yourself a lot and even accused the Commonwealth’s Attorney of trying to "crucify two young adults for making some bad parenting decisions. My favorite oddity was you don't believe AW used uses drugs, specifically heroin, because you haven't seen any news reports of her using it. Have you ever heard a news report of rumors about which drug someone is using? "Hello and welcome to FRN nightly news. We begin with the latest in small towns and 8-balls. Our exclusive rumor report is Betty Lou Hotchkiss and boyfriend, Cooter Dale Landweler, are said to be using heroin. Reportedly, they've finally been able to quit taking vicodin."

(modsnip)

:

BBM

Do you have a link the baby wasn't taken to the Dr? TIA

 

[Sparky]

BBM...
If that's the case, there are many in prison who will surely be demanding retrials; the meth found in their home is proof they're innocent of operating a meth lab.

Are you referring to the Noah's parents operating a meth lab? TIA

 

[Aeronomy]

Are you referring to the Noah's parents operating a meth lab? TIA

I believe LadyMaryB was making a comparison and being generic in referring to individuals currently incarcerated who were found guilty of operating a meth lab.

 

[poppygirl]

You know...at first, I really did think Noah had wandered off and was lost or had maybe been abducted.

After his body was found, I thought and hoped that this was an accident, that his mom was, as some suggested, well intentioned but exhausted from working nights and being with the kids by herself during the day.

Even after the parents were arrested, I continued to hope most of Noah's short life was good and his parents loved him. That his parents had made horrible mistakes that led to their son's death, but they loved him and were grieving tremendously.

I tried not to make assumptions about what was going through their heads.

But it's getting harder and harder to think anything but the worst about them. Why don't they (through their lawyers) shut up? Why would they think they deserve it, given what is publicly known about the case?

I wonder how much contact they have in jail. If they both got bond, would they be permitted to talk to and see each other?

I feel the same as you. I was truly empathetic to the parents at the start and didn't want to believe the worst of them. Being on websleuths long enough, you do begin to think the worst of people - because it's often true. Sadly, when children go missing, it's often because of someone close to them. When women go missing, it's often because of the husband/boyfriend/ex. Sometimes I wonder that I can still try to give people the benefit of the doubt at all until LE says otherwise...I don't think it's because I'm naive, I think it's because I still hold out hope the parents love their kids and would die protecting them rather than intentionally lead them to their death.

 

[ANonyMs]

BBM

Do you have a link the baby wasn't taken to the Dr? TIA

This is a sore subject for me. Reading statements like yours about the respiratory issues feels like someone is pushing on a bruise. {respectfully snipped for brevity}

Colds can evolve in the matter of two days. I have seen it.
Anyways, I know your post was written with good intentions but I hope you are able to entertain the possibility that respiratory issues is a vague term and they can come on quickly. That's all.

As far as I know, we don't have anything from LE, hearings, or MSM stating that they failed to take her to a doctor.

I, too, have a lot of experience with my own children having fast developing respiratory issues. One had RSV twice as an infant and the other was diagnosed with a respiratory condition after I took her to Dr after Dr for months. From the day she was born, I knew something was wrong but I was told over and over she was just fine. I stopped taking her for a few weeks as it got to the point that I was being made to feel like I was over thinking it, I was crazy for bringing her in so frequently for "nothing". Then it got *really bad* *really fast*. I thank God I got in with a Ped who really listened to HER, heard what was happening, immediately gathered a team and went to work on her.

I have thought a lot about that aspect of this case. We don't actually know the severity of nature of her condition b/c different MSM's have attributed Fleenor as saying "significant" or "severe" and "problems" or "infection". I think it was brought up in her bond hearing as one of several factors in the CA's case for against AW and PT.

If they HAD taken her to a doctor for that condition, I would assume one defense attorney or the other would have brought that up.

But this was a bond hearing and I think they will have ample time to bring that up if/when custody of Baby A ever comes to court or during a trial on these charges. (If they charges end up being escalated, it might end up as a moot point).

And the charges against both parents are NOT "medical neglect" charges. That is a different charge under the Virginia code.

(Yes, I know...I am rambling). All of that is to say that while I do think that her respiratory condition was obviously a cause for concern by CPS, and at least one part of the evidence for the CA's charges against the parents, I think it bears pointing out that it was not the only basis for the neglect charges (as we now know they left her unattended as well).

It will be interesting to see how that piece unfolds. The respiratory condition could have come on suddenly, or it could have even been caused by something like exposure to second hand smoke. A parent who took their child to the doctor would most certainly be viewed more favorably than one who didn't - but since the state chose not to file medical neglect charges, I don't think this can be chalked up to more than a contributing factor for their charges UNLESS they do find it was due to conditions created by the parents.

Edited to add: It will be interesting if anyone who saw them that weekend (Fri or Sat) before this all happened ends up testifying for one side or the other as to Baby A's condition.

 

[Mollyandme]

As far as I know, we don't have anything from LE, hearings, or MSM stating that they failed to take her to a doctor.

I, too, have a lot of experience with my own children having fast developing respiratory issues. One had RSV twice as an infant and the other was diagnosed with a respiratory condition after I took her to Dr after Dr for months. From the day she was born, I knew something was wrong but I was told over and over she was just fine. I stopped taking her for a few weeks as it got to the point that I was being made to feel like I was over thinking it, I was crazy for bringing her in so frequently for "nothing". Then it got *really bad* *really fast*. I thank God I got in with a Ped who really listened to HER, heard what was happening, immediately gathered a team and went to work on her.

I have thought a lot about that aspect of this case. We don't actually know the severity of nature of her condition b/c different MSM's have attributed Fleenor as saying "significant" or "severe" and "problems" or "infection". I think it was brought up in her bond hearing as one of several factors in the CA's case for against AW and PT.

If they HAD taken her to a doctor for that condition, I would assume one defense attorney or the other would have brought that up.

But this was a bond hearing and I think they will have ample time to bring that up if/when custody of Baby A ever comes to court or during a trial on these charges. (If they charges end up being escalated, it might end up as a moot point).

And the charges against both parents are NOT "medical neglect" charges. That is a different charge under the Virginia code.

(Yes, I know...I am rambling). All of that is to say that while I do think that her respiratory condition was obviously a cause for concern by CPS, and at least one part of the evidence for the CA's charges against the parents, I think it bears pointing out that it was not the only basis for the neglect charges (as we now know they left her unattended as well).

It will be interesting to see how that piece unfolds. The respiratory condition could have come on suddenly, or it could have even been caused by something like exposure to second hand smoke. A parent who took their child to the doctor would most certainly be viewed more favorably than one who didn't - but since the state chose not to file medical neglect charges, I don't think this can be chalked up to more than a contributing factor for their charges UNLESS they do find it was due to conditions created by the parents.

Edited to add: It will be interesting if anyone who saw them that weekend (Fri or Sat) before this all happened ends up testifying for one side or the other as to Baby A's condition.

I agree. I'm glad you found a good doctor. When my littl one got RSV it came on hard and fast. Asthma also runs in my family and my 2 year old showed some signs of it at a very early age, but he hasn't been diagnosed and has had no issues since. In terms of them not being charged with medical neglect, I'm thinking maybe CPS used the lack of medical care, or whatever the diagnosis was in their affidavits in family court to remove her from the home. We won't have access to that information because it's sealed in family or juvenile court but when I had to write out my affidavits for removing a child from the home we literally had to list all the reasons in all these legal terms, and we listed anything we could think of that would hold water in court, just so it was on the record, and then let the judge decide. So maybe it wasn't something so severe they could actually be charged with medical neglect, but it was prob something CPS could use in their argument for placement of the baby in foster care. I hope that makes some sense

 

[ANonyMs]

I agree. I'm glad you found a good doctor. When my littl one got RSV it came on hard and fast. Asthma also runs in my family and my 2 year old showed some signs of it at a very early age, but he hasn't been diagnosed and has had no issues since. In terms of them not being charged with medical neglect, I'm thinking maybe CPS used the lack of medical care, or whatever the diagnosis was in their affidavits in family court to remove her from the home. We won't have access to that information because it's sealed in family or juvenile court but when I had to write out my affidavits for removing a child from the home we literally had to list all the reasons in all these legal terms, and we listed anything we could think of that would hold water in court, just so it was on the record, and then let the judge decide. So maybe it wasn't something so severe they could actually be charged with medical neglect, but it was prob something CPS could use in their argument for placement of the baby in foster care. I hope that makes some sense

Actually, that makes a lot of sense and certainly seems to fit in here.