Verdict Watch Discussion Thread

[DMB]

The gun the jury saw was a Walther PPK, believed to be the murder weapon. The gun that was cropped out was a Bodyguard .380.

When Smich took the stand, he confirmed — in the absence of the jury — that there was more than one gun belonging to him and Millard.

"There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...by-20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-t/

Did he actually say that "there was more than one gun belonging to "him" and Millard OR "There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said. I am sure if the first was the case this would have been allowed in front of the jury as it does point to the possibility that MS brought his own gun to the robbery and murder of TB. However, it seems to me that with the upcoming trial of LB & WM and the court order still in effect for some of the disallowed evidence that the other gun is part of that!

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I've answered this question but to be clear there are different types of court reporters. Both stenography and voice equipment would likely be at a trial like this one.
A court reporter sets up the audio equipment, they then transcribe it from the audio recording when the day is completed so the courts have the actual transcription plus audio tapes.
They also use a mask to speak into as well. (likely similar to the microphone idea) - this is to drown out any background noise, coughing, sneezing etc
There would likely also be a stenography machine. This is a 21 or 22 key machine that is like shorthand. It is not like a laptop or anything else. A court reporter needs to have a very high accuracy and I believe it was
250 wpm?? It is a specific machine and most freelance reporters own their own.

I believe you are correct. Didn't the Court Clerk have technical difficulties with her machine? I remember Goodman saying something but I don't remember when or who was on the stand.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/zombie-bullets-and-killing-games-what-the-jury-didnt-hear-in-the-tim-bosma-murder-trial

Ugh. Thank goodness we didn't have to listen to any more of his art.

But, we finally hear about Smich's violation of the no contact order with MM while in jail.





This is the third date I've heard recently for LB's case. One said this November, one said November 2017, and now this one says early next year.

CN'S trial is set for November 14 2016. It was mentioned during CN'S testimony. I've only ever heard early next year and later next year for LB'S trial.

ETA: I see this was answered already.

 

[DMB]

Then how do you explain Smich's comment about "the drugs and the other thing"?


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Smich's text to AM about "the drugs and the other thing" came AFTER the conversations with AM & CN/AM in which either of them could have told him that MH had the toolbox MOO

 

[andreww]

I'm reading it as he said there was more than one gun, but not necessarily that he owned one. I'm not sure he would have had the cash to buy one. I M O it's more likely that DM was the owner of both

I think that there was a lot of evidence to suggest that Smich did own a gun. Sure, Millard probably paid for it, but they were partners and the whole "compensation package" thing complicates things. For instance, we know they stole a couple of Bobcats. We know Smich didn't have a Bobcat, so its safe to say that Millard kept that. So what was Smich's cut? Wouldn't surprise me in the least if his gun wasn't part of that package.

 

[andreww]

Smich's text to AM about "the drugs and the other thing" came AFTER the conversations with AM & CN/AM in which either of them could have told him that MH had the toolbox MOO

BBM. There's those words again. Seems that any post defending Smich contains those two words.

 

[DMB]

MOO

I just don't believe that MS was surprised to receive the gun. In fact I think he fully expected to receive as it appears that the arrangement was that it was to be returned. Somebody had to deal with it and as soon as DM was arrested and everyone went into panic mode MS was the only guy left to deal with it. He needed to get it back to Isho (or else?). In fact, I would think it was extremely important to MS to receive the gun. It was way better to have it in his possession and deal with it's disposal than to let it be out there in no man's land and have someone turn it in.

Remember that 50 minute meeting between DM and MS in which MS can't remember anything about it? I think DM told him at that point everything he was doing to cover up the crime and what he was putting into place and what MS was to do with "things" if he got arrested.

I'm not buying that it was a surprise to have the gun dumped on him. Not buying it for a second.

MOO

Why have a fifty minute meeting telling MS what he wants him to do with the gun and then take the gun further away when he could have just either gave it to him at that point. Also, he points out in his letters to CN that AM should never have messed with what he had "hidden" which I assume was the toolbox!

 

[matou]

Any possibility that one gun was for CN at some point? Also, didn't she use a hotmail addy that was a Spanish thing? hotchiquita or something?

ETA:
The iTunes address account on this computer was [email protected].
by Adam Carter 3:02 PM

 

[CJPRINCESS]

.

Smith & Wesson manufacture the Bodyguard .380 that was supposedly redacted in the evidence photo ... not sure how that relates to "Spanish Girl" in the texts .... must have had a coded meaning between MS & DM

As far as Isho giving a "dirty gun" a "clean print" most likely refers to modifying it after use .... every firing pin has its own signature where it strikes the primer in the brass casing and under a magnifying glass police can compare it to other spent shells .... simply a matter of replacing or modifying , or altering it with a file etc so that it does not produce the same marks

Same as the sides of the brass casing , each gun will produce unique marks and scratches when bullets are chambered and ejected .... same as the rifling (spiral grooves) in the barrel , police can study the bullets under a microscope to see if they match suspect guns .... using tools , files , or abrasives will alter those parts of a gun so that it makes different marks on the shells. Professional gun owners would never do that because it causes some damage but crooks dont care

Another thing that surprises me is why the crown (police) did not give some examples why the .380 shell only "appeared" in the back of the truck some time later. Most likely the shell landed on the back seat , and if MS was sitting there the cushion would have been compressed enough for it to roll into the crack in the seat and be hidden until later when the seat was flipped up and it could roll onto the floor.

Just like the pens and coins that every car has stuck in the seats and you never see them unless you dig them out or if it is a folding seat they fall out when it is hinged upward.

The link Kamille posted explains this.
"Llama revolvers had a better standard of manufacture and higher price. Manufactured from 1969 to 1978 and based on the Smith & Wesson Military and Police model but fitted with coiled mainspring." Also in this link, these guns have a blueish colored slide. One of the evidence pics we seen the gun looked to be a blueish color leading some to think there was two guns early on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama_firearms

DM calls the Walther.380 his "German" which we have all heard that the Walther originated in Germany was was used by Hitler.

This also clears up the debate from a few discussions ago. That Lisho would not want any to do with a dirty gun and that you can't make a dirty gun clean.

 

[ILoveDateline]

Did he actually say that "there was more than one gun belonging to "him" and Millard OR "There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said. I am sure if the first was the case this would have been allowed in front of the jury as it does point to the possibility that MS brought his own gun to the robbery and murder of TB. However, it seems to me that with the upcoming trial of LB & WM and the court order still in effect for some of the disallowed evidence that the other gun is part of that!

I'm with ya. I'm having trouble believing MS would cop to owning a gun. There can only be one owner of the gun, not two, even if the plan was to share it. Even if they went halfsies on the cost. It's not owned by two people. It can only be in the possession of one person. DM bought the gun and picked it up. Just like the cars, no one said we had many cars. It was DM had many cars. JMO.

But I've been wrong about everything so far. [emoji37]

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[mimimic]

Did he actually say that "there was more than one gun belonging to "him" and Millard OR "There's multiple firearms of different calibers," he said. I am sure if the first was the case this would have been allowed in front of the jury as it does point to the possibility that MS brought his own gun to the robbery and murder of TB. However, it seems to me that with the upcoming trial of LB & WM and the court order still in effect for some of the disallowed evidence that the other gun is part of that!

I believe he said both things you bolded, although the first one he didn't say "him", he said something along the lines of us or we. I recall because to me it sounded like something a spouse would say.- WE. I don't think they are romantic.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I know right! Judge disallows evidence and then sits and watches the defendant lie about it? Don't seem right.


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Maybe that's why Sachak was pi$$ed and call MS a perjurer and stated many times "why would you put a purjurer on the stand" resulting in Dungey getting pi$$ed.

MS also said that "no one has ever gotten hurt during their missions" and if I remember correctly, Dungey asked if the incinerator had been used before and MS said no. Now we all know that's a lie as well!!

 

[MsSherlock]

I know right! Judge disallows evidence and then sits and watches the defendant lie about it? Don't seem right.


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I was thinking the same thing- very strange that MS would be allowed to tell an outright lie in front of the Jury. I'm hoping that the Jury gets the clue that DM and MS were joined at the hip- that MS wasn't just some innocent drug dealing **** who needed psychological therapy after his friend turned into a lunatic that fateful night. IMO, MS's testimony did contain some truths. I believe that he switched the plates at the BobCat dealership that night. I believe that TB was killed by DM when MS was following him- but I also believe that MS knew what the plan was.

It was a smart move by TD to put MS on the stand. It allowed MS to get enough info out there to confuse things. Unfortunately, like many have already said, with so much evidence not being allowed, the Jury doesn't know how dangerous MS really is. By the questions the Jury has asked thus far, it would seem to me that there's some sympathy for MS or at least some concern that he really didn't know what was going down and that DM was playing him like he played everyone else.

I don't think the Crown can be pleased with the amount of evidence that got tossed.

The part of the whole thing that bothers me the most is the defence around DM. Sure, everyone deserves a fair trial, but IMO, P & S served as another extension of the resources that have enabled DM. At every given opportunity they cried foul for fear that certain evidence would be prejudicial against DM. MB? Assisting her son in violating no contact orders and overseeing CN destroy evidence? SS? These two make me cringe. RB's comments about DM didn't come from thin air-IMO, RB's had made some prudent observations and perhaps once DM is locked up, RB will talk and we'll get a bit more insight into the mind and behaviours of this madman.

I'm still behind my prediction that the Jury will reach a decision by tomorrow afternoon- IMO, once they cross a couple hurdles in concern to MS, it'll be a sprint across the finish line. MOO

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

I waited till I got enough courage to post this...LOL
IMO, there was A LOT of what I call "background noise" in this whole thing. The video games. I play Grand Theft Auto and other type of games like Warcraft. They're precision games and hold your attention. Not everyone likes the racing ones or the bowling or tennis ones. Does that make me violent? Does this mean I'm gonna build a catapult and storm my neighborhood? Nooooo! Again, I know it was there to show MS was into what they were describing as violent or violence minded because of the games he chose to play.
For example, in the Arias case, her lawyer tried to insinuate the victim was a pervert and a sexual deviant because he had watched one of Daft Punk's amusing/bizarre video's on his computer and the song had lyrics with "stronger" "harder" "faster" in it. So, the rap genre, in and of itself, has become way beyond violent and down right scary with lyrics about women raping, cop killing and more. Does that mean these rappers are gonna go out and actually DO those acts? Rap has become the harder and more violent, the better. Show you're a bad azz, a warning that if you mess with me, I'm gonna get payback. Do they? No! Background noise, IMO. I won't get into other stuff, that, IMO, was similar background noise.

Here I go, this WILL NOT be popular. IMO, the Eliminator, was more a part of DM and his employee, Shane S...more than MS. DM and the guy had discussions about the "size/model" they should get. DM decided to get the larger model. Shane S's name was on the receipts. I DO know MS knew of it and it's purpose. The paperwork was found in DM's Yukon when stopped.
The actual shooting was done by DM. All's my opinion, again. BUT, I can't wrap my head around the fact that the murder was "planned", per se. From DM's text, he mentions, something to the fact, when asked, said it could be an early night, or a long one.
Murder was an option, BUT, it could go either way. IMO, DM was ready for the murder to happen, though, AND MS, as well. IMO, it just affected MS differently.
When MS got home, he was visibly shaken (MY interpretation) and said things got "effed up". IMO, again, I honestly believe that MS didn't know stuff was gonna go down as it did,BUT, he had NO problem what so ever as accepting it and taking part in the horrific events that came AFTER.

 

[cckp72]

It was a smart move by TD to put MS on the stand. It allowed MS to get enough info out there to confuse things. Unfortunately, like many have already said, with so much evidence not being allowed, the Jury doesn't know how dangerous MS really is. By the questions the Jury has asked thus far, it would seem to me that there's some sympathy for MS or at least some concern that he really didn't know what was going down and that DM was playing him like he played everyone else.

I had the same thought about MS getting on the stand to confuse things. Its even entirely possible, IMO, that they calculated this could work in DM's benefit as well as more doubt has been cast for the jury. JMO.

 

[canadiangirl]

Then how do you explain Smich's comment about "the drugs and the other thing"?
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The "getting the drugs conversation" came in a series of calls from MS to AM as per AM testimony
(funny how convenient that is)

Texts were from AM phone as he deleted them because he was "scared"
The actual text says - "Tell him where it's at, and ask him to bring it to me along with the other thing" - April 13 2016

Tell him where it's at - (the weed) and ask him to bring it to me along with the (other thing) - toolbox full of oxy, coke, and whatever other drugs they held.
There's no way at a party weed is kept in a "locked" toolbox. Ever been to a party?

The rest of the conversation is as told by AM - and either him or MH lied on the stand since their stories did not line up

Somewhere along the line it was "added in" or assumed that MS said bring me the drugs along with the other thing. Which changes the entire thing completely doesnt it.

 

[DMB]

BBM. There's those words again. Seems that any post defending Smich contains those two words.

Yes, I believe that the crown has not proven the case against MS beyond a reasonable doubt as it has with DM. I recognise that a terrible tragedy has occurred in the death of TB and am also sympathetic to the great losses suffered by many others who have also been affected by DM's Psychosis including MB, MS's mother and family and MS himself. Yes, MS has a police record for various crimes, likes rap, dresses poorly and looks "sketchy" but so do millions of others who have not committed a murder. What is proven beyond a doubt was that he was with DM that night and helped clean up, everything else is ones own perception and conjecture of the facts.
Having said that, my post(s) where in reply to a query on how would I explain MS's text about the drugs and the other "thing". After hearing conflicting testimony from AM & MH regarding the "thing" I offered my explanation with the words "could have" and of course MOO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I waited till I got enough courage to post this...LOL
IMO, there was A LOT of what I call "background noise" in this whole thing. The video games. I play Grand Theft Auto and other type of games like Warcraft. They're precision games and hold your attention. Not everyone likes the racing ones or the bowling or tennis ones. Does that make me violent? Does this mean I'm gonna build a catapult and storm my neighborhood? Again, I know it was there to show MS was into what they were describing as violent or violence minded. In the Arias case, her lawyer tried to insinuate the victim was a pervert and a sexual deviant because he had watched one of Daft Punk's amusing/bizarre video's on his computer and the song had lyrics with "harder" "faster" in it. So, in another example, the rap genre, in and of itself, has become way beyond violent and down right scary with lyrics about women raping, cop killing and more. Does that mean these rappers are gonna go out and actually DO those acts? =p

Yes and the judge agreed with this. Even saying, with a short pause, that he even knew people that play the games.

 

[MsSherlock]

"They begin their discussions at the courthouse, guarded by courthouse staff, at 9:30 a.m. They continue until 8:30 p.m. each night, with breaks for lunch and dinner."http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-trial-deliberations-day-2-1.3635581

I didn't know that the Jury actually put in 11 hour days during deliberations- that would be exhausting! Also didn't know that the Judge, Lawyers, Accused and court staff stayed at the Court House during the deliberations- can't even imagine the lawyers bills on that one. I'm assuming that during this time both Legal teams are staying in town. I'm assuming that they're keeping MS at Barton and transporting him and DM separately to and from the Courthouse everyday?

 

[andreww]

The "getting the drugs conversation" came in a series of calls from MS to AM as per AM testimony
(funny how convenient that is)

Texts were from AM phone as he deleted them because he was "scared"
The actual text says - "Tell him where it's at, and ask him to bring it to me along with the other thing" - April 13 2016

Tell him where it's at - (the weed) and ask him to bring it to me along with the (other thing) - toolbox full of oxy, coke, and whatever other drugs they held.
There's no way at a party weed is kept in a "locked" toolbox. Ever been to a party?

The rest of the conversation is as told by AM - and either him or MH lied on the stand since their stories did not line up

So you still think that AM is trying to frame Smich? That his testimony was all lies? What would be his motivation at this point in time?