WA - 3 children, ages 13, 9 and 7, among 5 killed inside Fall City home, 15 y.o. in custody - 21 October 2024

[Knox]

Bringing this forward, obviously the records are sealed. But you can view and track the filings and hearings at link below.

Case number: 24-8-00878-2 SEA

Juvenile Offender Cases | KC-Script Portal

dja-prd-ecexap1.kingcounty.gov

 

[Charlot123]

Meh. The family doesn't seem any more extreme than the garden variety religious homeschoolers you see on social media every day. seems like a flimsy excuse after the "my brother killed the family because he watched p**n" excuse failed. JMO

North Bend is essentially a suburb of Seattle these days. The kid was not geographically isolated.

I suspect they are “garden variety” denomination because any living around me that I would call “sectarian”, surprisingly, send kids to local schools and live in a more community-type way. JMO.

How extreme was the family itself I don’t know.

About Fall City. It is closer to Sammamish. Sammamish is well-known and settled with mostly IT-workers. I suspect that when the cost of Sammamish houses became insurmountable, people started settling close by, in Fall City. They do have a High School, per district, and a good one. Because the said IT workers would try to make it very good. So homeschooling was strictly the parents’ choice, IMO. The problem, if you look at the map, is public transportation. With five kids of a different age living at the lake, I think mom would feel spread too thin either way (not judging, thinking of how it was for her). The only thing I know about Fall City, and specifically about it, before this tragedy hit, is that kids need own cars to drive out. It is a true “bedroom” community. So either someone has to drive you to your friends nearby, or you have to stay in your house. Everyone probably felt isolated; we don’t know how it affected mom herself, alone and with five kids of a different age.
I think COVID might have split people even more, but just my suspicion.

 

[Best of What's Around]

I have not read through everything posted, so I apologize if this has been discussed. I do see there has been some discussion regarding the belief system of the parents and what may or may not constitute a healthy upbringing.

Not to victim blame, but I do not understand the rationale behind giving a 15 year old access to the murder weapon here, the gun. Statistically, particularly in such a safe neighborhood, an ending in tragedy has to be astronomically more likely than a valid stand your ground event. Isn't there a reason it is not legal to sell firearms like this to a 15 year old? Should a parent who determines a juvenile is mature enough to have such access bear any responsibility if it turns out to be misplaced?

Do your opinions change at all if this 15 year old had instead taken this gun to a neighbor's house and shot that family? Would we be calling for these parents to be held accountable for putting such a lethal weapon within his reach?

If the parents do, in theory, bear some responsibility, would it be considered negligence, gross negligence, or reckless if the 15 year old uses this weapon against a sibling out of anger? A neighbor? A school shooting (I know they were homeschooled...just for argument's sake)?

Does your opinion change if a parent who spends arguably more, not less, time with their children due to home schooling fails to recognize or get assistance for a juvenile who exhibits anti-social tendencies? If they are not in a position to recognize any signs, who is? If there were signs, is it their responsibility to get psychological help if they do not believe in that type of healthcare?

Just asking questions.

 

[Sundog]

I have not read through everything posted, so I apologize if this has been discussed. I do see there has been some discussion regarding the belief system of the parents and what may or may not constitute a healthy upbringing.

Not to victim blame, but I do not understand the rationale behind giving a 15 year old access to the murder weapon here, the gun. Statistically, particularly in such a safe neighborhood, an ending in tragedy has to be astronomically more likely than a valid stand your ground event. Isn't there a reason it is not legal to sell firearms like this to a 15 year old? Should a parent who determines a juvenile is mature enough to have such access bear any responsibility if it turns out to be misplaced?

Do your opinions change at all if this 15 year old had instead taken this gun to a neighbor's house and shot that family? Would we be calling for these parents to be held accountable for putting such a lethal weapon within his reach?

If the parents do, in theory, bear some responsibility, would it be considered negligence, gross negligence, or reckless if the 15 year old uses this weapon against a sibling out of anger? A neighbor? A school shooting (I know they were homeschooled...just for argument's sake)?

Does your opinion change if a parent who spends arguably more, not less, time with their children due to home schooling fails to recognize or get assistance for a juvenile who exhibits anti-social tendencies? If they are not in a position to recognize any signs, who is? If there were signs, is it their responsibility to get psychological help if they do not believe in that type of healthcare?

Just asking questions.

The issue with access to the firearm is concerning, however it is obvious the parents trusted him with that knowledge in the event of an emergency. I assume they went to a shooting range from time to time so that the 15-year old knew how to handle a firearm. This is not uncommon. On the other hand, we are starting to see prosecutors in some states hold parents accountable for their children who have access to firearms and use them to commit school shootings and other murders. Would the parents have been charged criminally if one of the hypothetical situations you described had taken place? Perhaps, but we don't know if they would have been found guilty of negligence or other crimes that you mention. That would depend on a lot of factors.

With regard to the other issues you raised, I don't have any reason to be concerned about them. Home-schooling is a legitimate choice by parents, and people's beliefs and values differ in significant ways about so many things, and we don't see many 15 year old family annihilators as a result of it.

ETA Edited to complete the post that got away from me before I had finished it.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Question is, do kids raised in hyperreligious, isolated, paranoid, militaristic and survivalist household, and homeschooled at this, have the chance to grow into normal adults?

When we read about Israel Keys household, we have to factor it in, but we can't as when he started his killings, he was a fully grown adult, who had served in the army, had a child and should have known right from wrong.

<modsnip: Removed opinion stated as fact> He probably felt alienated from all of them. He still lived under the same roof. While not minimizing the crime, we still have to judge him as a juvenile, methinks.

I don't think we know the family was hyperreligious, isolated, paranoid, militaristic and survivalists for a fact. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think we know the family was hyperreligious, isolated, paranoid, militaristic and survivalists for a fact. JMO

We don't know anything so far, to be honest.

 

[Seattle1]

I suspect they are “garden variety” denomination because any living around me that I would call “sectarian”, surprisingly, send kids to local schools and live in a more community-type way. JMO.

How extreme was the family itself I don’t know.

About Fall City. It is closer to Sammamish. Sammamish is well-known and settled with mostly IT-workers. I suspect that when the cost of Sammamish houses became insurmountable, people started settling close by, in Fall City. They do have a High School, per district, and a good one. Because the said IT workers would try to make it very good. So homeschooling was strictly the parents’ choice, IMO. The problem, if you look at the map, is public transportation. With five kids of a different age living at the lake, I think mom would feel spread too thin either way (not judging, thinking of how it was for her). The only thing I know about Fall City, and specifically about it, before this tragedy hit, is that kids need own cars to drive out. It is a true “bedroom” community. So either someone has to drive you to your friends nearby, or you have to stay in your house. Everyone probably felt isolated; we don’t know how it affected mom herself, alone and with five kids of a different age.
I think COVID might have split people even more, but just my suspicion.

Using "Fall City" in general to judge the need for a car, or put them in isolation, does not paint an accurate picture here.

If you take the actual address of their residence, you'll see they were minutes from I-90 and the kids were a 5-minute bike ride to the YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks, etc.. A short walk to a dozen transit stops.

If you expand the side panel, you can select your travel mode and destination or choose from the pre-populated sites. Somebody here probably knows how to program the Google car, and all can take a ride to Costco! JMO

7715 Lake Alice Rd SE to YMCA Snoqualmie

www.google.com

 

[sunflowermomma]

Has a reason been given why the grandma did not make a police/CPS report if the abuse was recognizable?

 

[Seattle1]

Has a reason been given why the grandma did not make a police/CPS report if the abuse was recognizable?

Nope. This was an allegation by the defense. We don't even know if she said such things. IMO, these claims may have come from their client. "Grandma threatened to call CPS on Mom if she didn't stop mistreating me/us." JMO

 

[Knox]

Nope. This was an allegation by the defense. We don't even know if she said such things. IMO, these claims may have come from their client. "Grandma threatened to call CPS on Mom if she didn't stop mistreating me/us." JMO

That would be very brazen of the defense if true.

 

[girlhasnoname]

That would be very brazen of the defense if true.

Sadly I've seen a lot of Defense Attorneys using quite brazen tactics on behalf of their clients lately. Delphi, Idaho, Mangione, Murdaugh etc. to name a few. Especially pre-trial when it's still a 'word Smith' game.

JMO

 

[OneLove]

Using "Fall City" in general to judge the need for a car, or put them in isolation, does not paint an accurate picture here.

If you take the actual address of their residence, you'll see they were minutes from I-90 and the kids were a 5-minute bike ride to the YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks, etc.. A short walk to a dozen transit stops.

If you expand the side panel, you can select your travel mode and destination or choose from the pre-populated sites. Somebody here probably knows how to program the Google car, and all can take a ride to Costco! JMO

7715 Lake Alice Rd SE to YMCA Snoqualmie

www.google.com

All those options available to them and so close too. Yet if the reported accounts of neighbors are to be believed, none of the kids had these options available to them, not even the 15 year old. The published article said the kids were only allowed to be around other people from their church. We don't yet know if those reports are fictitious altogether or true. We have seen discussion that the 15 year old was specifically denied communication and socialization with his neighbor who was of like age. If this is true, i sincerely doubt he was allowed to trek to the local bus stop and hop transport to wherever he wanted to go or to ride his bike to the ymca full of all kinds of strangers or to walk to the local Starbucks and retail areas where others of his age were known to gather. That may have been a very hard pill for him to swallow. No, it doesn't excuse family annihilation. I'm not defending his actions. I'm being realistic about the circumstances leading up to this scene of horrors. Maybe someone somewhere can learn something that might help prevent this from happening elsewhere. ~~I'm wondering if the grandmother, *if* she did indeed talk to her daughter about her parenting actions seeming to be abusive, would in restrospect choose a different course of action. Would the 15 year old eventually have been allowed to live with her and continue school where he had attended before the move if he had continued to fail to adjust to the isolation and restrictions? Would the mother have allowed counseling for him? Would they all still be alive today?

 

[Knox]

Sadly I've seen a lot of Defense Attorneys using quite brazen tactics on behalf of their clients lately. Delphi, Idaho, Mangione, Murdaugh etc. to name a few. Especially pre-trial when it's still a 'word Smith' game.

JMO

In the end easily disproven, but I get the point you’re making.

 

[Sundog]

Would the 15 year old eventually have been allowed to live with her and continue school where he had attended before the move if he had continued to fail to adjust to the isolation and restrictions? Would the mother have allowed counseling for him? Would they all still be alive today?

<Snipped for focus>

I doubt the grandmother would be able to handle or control a dangerously antisocial juvenile like this 15-year old who defied authority to the point of execution of his total family in order to continue to shrug off his school work and other responsibilities in order to further his own goals, like spending his time online looking at p**r*n" and planning a premeditated murder of his parents and younger siblings. The executions were planned along with deceit to cover it up, they were not impulsive acts that are more common in juvenile patricide and matricide. Eventually, the grandmother might have been killed herself if he lived with her, or given in to his impulsivity and antisocial behaviors and ended up as a school shooter or some other criminal behavior would have been enacted and therefore he would have been a serious danger to society beyond his family.

I wonder if he had committed domestic violence or abuse against Sarah (his mother) before and against any of his siblings. I think it is likely, and unfortunately Mark and Sarah tried their best to discipline him but he defied their authority constantly, it seems. Unfortunately, access to a firearm allowed him to carry out this heinous act. Mark and Sarah never thought that he would be capable of something like this and paid the ultimate price for his deviant behavior and tragically, were not able to save their other children from him.

I hope he is transferred to adult court and sentenced accordingly so there is justice for Mark and Sarah and the siblings who were executed and for B, his surviving sister, who lost her entire family at his hands.

 

[Charlot123]

Using "Fall City" in general to judge the need for a car, or put them in isolation, does not paint an accurate picture here.

If you take the actual address of their residence, you'll see they were minutes from I-90 and the kids were a 5-minute bike ride to the YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks, etc.. A short walk to a dozen transit stops.

If you expand the side panel, you can select your travel mode and destination or choose from the pre-populated sites. Somebody here probably knows how to program the Google car, and all can take a ride to Costco! JMO

7715 Lake Alice Rd SE to YMCA Snoqualmie

www.google.com

Well, the question is, were kids free to go to YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks or did parents curate their friends? There were some articles in the beginning indicating that the perpetrator was not free to choose friends, if i remember correctly.

 

[Gemmie]

Well, the question is, were kids free to go to YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks or did parents curate their friends? There were some articles in the beginning indicating that the perpetrator was not free to choose friends, if i remember correctly.

Yep. I posted about that a few times.

First time HERE.

Second time HERE.

 

[Knox]

Well, the question is, were kids free to go to YMCA, Safeway, Starbucks or did parents curate their friends? There were some articles in the beginning indicating that the perpetrator was not free to choose friends, if i remember correctly.

And if he wasn’t, does that legitimize or diminish the brutality and consequences of murdering your entire family?

 

[OneLove]

And if he wasn’t, does that legitimize or diminish the brutality and consequences of murdering your entire family?

No, it doesn't legitimize or diminish in any respect or to any degree. I think the point here is to consider what *might* have been done differently that *might* have prevented this from happening in the first place.

Everyone has their individual reasons for exploring these possibilities, just as we do for school shooters. Some have zero interest at all in considering hiw these things might be prevented. For me personally, my professional background as a juvenile justice worker *and* as a social worker specializing specifically in troubled teens, my interest level in prevention is high.

Dissecting the factors in this case will never ever bring back this family. But understanding better how, why, and when things went off the rails might just save others.

It would be nice, really, if this kid was happily enjoying his new year in school and his family were also enjoying their daily lives also.

 

[Knox]

No, it doesn't legitimize or diminish in any respect or to any degree. I think the point here is to consider what *might* have been done differently that *might* have prevented this from happening in the first place.

Everyone has their individual reasons for exploring these possibilities, just as we do for school shooters. Some have zero interest at all in considering hiw these things might be prevented. For me personally, my professional background as a juvenile justice worker *and* as a social worker specializing specifically in troubled teens, my interest level in prevention is high.

Dissecting the factors in this case will never ever bring back this family. But understanding better how, why, and when things went off the rails might just save others.

It would be nice, really, if this kid was happily enjoying his new year in school and his family were also enjoying their daily lives also.

Completely understand the points you make, thank you.

Can I ask you a question in return? How would knowing the factors in this particular case help you save others amd how would that actually be accomplished?

How could you prevent this from happening again?

One more, do you think this kid can be rehabilitated to the degree he could be released one day?

 

[Charlot123]

And if he wasn’t, does that legitimize or diminish the brutality and consequences of murdering your entire family?

We are on the same page about the act. I am trying to understand the triggers and learn about ways of prevention. This case we can discuss only from the parental perspective. One obvious conclusion: be very careful about guns around teenagers. The other one is, was this tragedy avoidable or not? If yes, then at what step?