Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

[Jo in Calif]

Cheryl had cuts to one finger on each hand. Was that evidence of a struggle, or self-inflicted? Although medical examiners are trained to examine cuts for the purpose of identifying a weapon blade, I need more information before I will believe that a medical examiner can look at a cut, and with no additional information, determine that it was self-inflicted. I simply don't believe that is part of anyone's skillset.

Clearly, deeming the cuts "self-inflicted" supports the police theory of suicide.

Given that some of Cheryl's belonging were found upstream from the culvert, if it was suicide it's more likely that she walked along the creek next to the cemetery until she got to the culvert, and discarded some possessions as she approached the culvert.

Suicide is supported by the fact that we've had difficulties understanding how someone could put a body, unseen, at that location. Alternatively, Morgan Harrington was found in a field where it was equally difficult to understand how she got there until there was an arrest and conviction of a former football player who had a reputation for hitting women in the head, picking them up, and carrying them to secluded areas.

Please refresh me as I could have missed things but what were her belongs that were found upstream?

 

[Stripehaven]

I want to point out that the creek is not "next to the cemetery." The cemetery is on a hill/bluff, and also some distance away. You can see this if you go for a tour using Google Maps street view, although you don't get a clear idea of just how hilly this area is.

 

[otto]

I hope they did a good autopsy. Iknow they are saying there was water in her lungs but I recall a show on TV sorry cant remember which one it was. The guy traveled for a living. He checked in to a hotel and died in his bed. They went round and round trying to figure his cause of death and I cant remember now what the final decision was, maybe natural causes. Later someone maybe the family was not satisfied and hired this good looking tall grey haired dude, sorry cant remember his name either lol anyway he found out the room next door had 5 or 6 guys in it that had a gun with them that night. Sure enough there was a small pin hole in the wall that led right to the guys bed and under his arm, the coroner missed the accidental bullet hole on autopsy. So it happens, they are only human. Just saying I hope no mistakes were made...

Far too often a medical examiner will take the easy route and miss the hidden murder.

Dr Michael MacNeill's wife was found dead in a bathtub. The ME ruled heart defect. The daughter disagreed and did her own investigation. Eventually the manner of death was changed to undetermined, and eventually the Dr was convicted for murder.

Drew Peterson's second wife was found dead in a bathtub. That was not investigated as murder until several years later, and after a subsequent wife vanished.

Michael Peterson was present when a woman allegedly fell down the stairs and died. Although there was too much blood spatter on the adjacent wall, cause of death was ruled heart defect. That was later overturned.

There were no signs of a struggle to suggest murder in any of these cases, but it was murder.

 

[otto]

As several people have pointed out already, while that might be the theory, it is not the reality.

It's not a theory that suicide is most easily achieved at home. It's a simple fact. However, there are psychological factors associated with suicide that cause suicidal people to choose another location, such as jumping off a bridge.

 

[otto]

Two thoughts, if this was suicide: perhaps no one saw Cheryl walking on Cedar Way (where she would have been conspicuous, at least for the final stretch) or enter the culvert - she may have done so at night. We don't really know where she was until Feb 14.

(After my own trip yesterday to check visibility into the west side of the culvert, I am surprised she wasn't spotted sooner if she was there all along, given the clear view and the fact that her disappearance was so well publicized. On the other hand, I can't imagine her hanging out for days in the chilly weather, knowing her family must be so worried.)

Her friend said Cheryl was quite eager to acquire her new cat. As a cat person myself, I realized yesterday that she might have thought the new kitty would be a comfort of sorts to her husband if she herself could no longer manage to stay here. That may sound silly but I can well imagine such an idea.

I think the theory is that she entered the culvert on the East side, and her body was carried through the culvert to the West side.

After entering the cemetery, is there a path along Lyon Creek on the cemetery side of the road? If so, that would be a good option for walking to the culvert unseen. It would also give someone time to think things through.

I looked for trails in the area but was unable to find any trail maps along the creek.

 

[eucalyptuz]

Cheryl had cuts to one finger on each hand. Was that evidence of a struggle, or self-inflicted? Although medical examiners are trained to examine cuts for the purpose of identifying a weapon blade, I need more information before I will believe that a medical examiner can look at a cut, and with no additional information, determine that it was self-inflicted. I simply don't believe that is part of anyone's skillset.

Clearly, deeming the cuts "self-inflicted" supports the police theory of suicide.

I am no expert but as they have the cuts that did not exist before that morning (to the family's knowledge), the razor with which the cuts were made, probable matching prints and perhaps trace evidence of Cheryl's blood on the blade/in the pocket. ME's will be able to match the orientation of the prints to how it was used. Eg: when I clean glass with a blade I hold it with two thumbs underneath and 4 fingers on top, but if I was cutting something, and if I didn't have a casing for the blade, then my fingers would be in a very different position. I guess it's even possible that microscopic variations in the blade can be detected in the cuts. I really don't think they would have announced "self-inflicted" with all the weight that carries if they were not sure.

 

[Treelights]

Cheryl had cuts to one finger on each hand. Was that evidence of a struggle, or self-inflicted? Although medical examiners are trained to examine cuts for the purpose of identifying a weapon blade, I need more information before I will believe that a medical examiner can look at a cut, and with no additional information, determine that it was self-inflicted. I simply don't believe that is part of anyone's skillset.

Clearly, deeming the cuts "self-inflicted" supports the police theory of suicide.

Given that some of Cheryl's belonging were found upstream from the culvert, if it was suicide it's more likely that she walked along the creek next to the cemetery until she got to the culvert, and discarded some possessions as she approached the culvert.

Suicide is supported by the fact that we've had difficulties understanding how someone could put a body, unseen, at that location. Alternatively, Morgan Harrington was found in a field where it was equally difficult to understand how she got there until there was an arrest and conviction of a former football player who had a reputation for hitting women in the head, picking them up, and carrying them to secluded areas.

You mentioned that some of Cheryl's items were found upstream from the culvert.

What items were they?

 

[otto]

Please refresh me as I could have missed things but what were her belongs that were found upstream?

As pointed out by Brandi, "items" were located in and near the creek and they were sent for processing. Details about the items have not been released.

 

[Treelights]

Please refresh me as I could have missed things but what were her belongs that were found upstream?

I just now saw your post. We both have the same questions!

 

[otto]

I want to point out that the creek is not "next to the cemetery." The cemetery is on a hill/bluff, and also some distance away. You can see this if you go for a tour using Google Maps street view, although you don't get a clear idea of just how hilly this area is.

Downhill from the cemetery, and along Lyon Creek, do you know if there is a trail or a path?

 

[Treelights]

As pointed out by Brandi, "items" were located in and near the creek and they were sent for processing. Details about the items have not been released.

You mentioned they were Cheryl's. Those items whatever they are might not be Cheryl's then….

 

[Stripehaven]

I think the theory is that she entered the culvert on the East side, and her body was carried through the culvert to the West side.

After entering the cemetery, is there a path along Lyon Creek on the cemetery side of the road? If so, that would be a good option for walking to the culvert unseen. It would also give someone time to think things through.

I looked for trails in the area but was unable to find any trail maps along the creek.

The cemetery is not next to Lyon Creek. Please see my post upthread.

 

[Treelights]

BBM--where did it say they found items belonging to Cheryl. They found "evidence" no one has confirmed exactly what it was (?)

Again someone with my thoughts….

 

[otto]

I am no expert but as they have the cuts that did not exist before that morning (to the family's knowledge), the razor with which the cuts were made, probable matching prints and perhaps trace evidence of Cheryl's blood on the blade/in the pocket. ME's will be able to match the orientation of the prints to how it was used. Eg: when I clean glass with a blade I hold it with two thumbs underneath and 4 fingers on top, but if I was cutting something, and I didn't have a casing for the blade, then my fingers would be in a very different position. I guess it's even possible that microscopic variations in the blade can be detected in the cuts. I really don't think they would have announced "self-inflicted" with all the weight that carries if they were not sure.

Cheryl had cuts to two fingers, and she had a razor blade in her pocket.

Prints (if there were any after being in water for 6 days) suggest that Cheryl was the last person to touch the razor blade, not that the cuts to her fingers were made with that blade. The ME will examine the cuts, and perhaps they were very thin cuts made by a very thin blade. The thin razor blade in her pocket could be consistent with the type of cuts she had. It's a short leap to conclude that the cuts were self-inflicted.

 

[ANZAC]

You have been VERY VERY :wink: fortunate to be involved in situations where there was a perfect storm of a capable smartphone plus complete data acquisition, retention, and availability.

It has nothing to do with smartphones. I can't share any further details of how the process works, it is confidential.

What gave you the idea anyone thought the phone company was analyzing the records? I was unable to find your previous post but I've read the recent articles based on statements by the police chief, including that they're waiting on the analysis from the US Marshalls Service.

In a missing persons search, there can be two efforts. One is the exigent search without a warrant, only to be used in situations where there is no indication a crime might have been committed. I'm not going to post the info again, it is posted in this thread. If it looks like there may be a crime committed, the search may be delayed until there is a warrant. And different agencies will be involved in the forensics once the data is made available. Things have changed a lot in the last 3-4 years.

Btw, it was the search warrant issued on Feb 10 for her phone records that used the term "powered down."

If there was information used in a warrant for the phone records, it therefore must have been obtained through an exigent forensic search without a warrant. As I've said, we clearly know when a phone has been shut down by a person vs lost signal or the battery removed.

Also, to be clear, I'm not the one doing this stuff, I'm an observer and customer of the process, and have handled the output of the process. And yes I am being deliberately oblique.

 

[otto]

You mentioned they were Cheryl's. Those items whatever they are might not be Cheryl's then….

Police went into Lyon Creek to search for evidence associated with Cheryl's death. They collected some items. Those items are being analyzed. Police have not stated what items were collected.

 

[windrower]

While I am leaning towards suicide I certainly don't think any evidence has been revealed to support it, yet. I appreciate Anzac and others perspective and contribution but most of the arguments that it was suicide are lack of evidence of homicide. The reasoning is flawed. When others point out a similar lack of evidence of homicide, it is dismissed because suicide is irrational.

No motivation for homicide.
1. We don't know that.
2. Some homicides have no motivation.

When someone replies that there is no motivation for suicide, it is dismissed because there is no reason for a motivation for suicide yet is equally true for homicide. A lack of homicide motivation is not evidence of suicide.

The method is rarely used in homicide.
This argument also goes both ways. This method is rarely used for suicide and barely ever used without drugs or alcohol. When it is mentioned that it would be nearly impossible to use this method for suicide, the response is suicidal people do very irrational things. So do homicidal people. The method tells us nothing.

The location is a poor location for homicide.
If it was homicide, it didn't occur in the culvert. Her body was just dumped there and it seems a reasonable place if the person need a quick place to dump a body or had waited until night. It seems like a very poor place for a suicide, as many have mentioned. It would be just as likely that someone would see a murderer dumping her body as someone seeing someone walking into the culvert. The location doesn't tell us anything.

The lack of evidence of violence means suicide.
While most homicides do have evidence of violence, not all of them do. If we turn this argument around, a high percent of people who commit suicide have a history of mental illness and there is no evidence of mental illness with Cheryl. Also, a high percent of people who commit suicide have a history of drug or alcohol abuse and there is no evidence of that with Cheryl. Using the reasoning that a lack of violence means suicide, a lack of mental illness and drug or alcohol use means homicide. Both arguments are flawed and diminish the credibility of the person making it. A lack of evidence of one thing is not evidence of something else.

Self-inflicted cuts.
We don't know what they are and we don't know if they were intentionally self-inflicted.

This goes on and on. There a common factors in suicide that are lacking just as there are common factors in homicide that are lacking.

All this. Thank you. The statement, "A lack of evidence of one thing is not evidence of something else."

If the razor blade was in Cheryl's coat pocket, she could have accidentally cut a finger reaching in her pocket as she checked for her badge. And the razor blade could have an innocent explanation for being there---she used it at home and absent-mindedly put it in her pocket. Or intended to use it in the car or at work to remove something from glass and took it along.

But that is the case with several "clues" in this case---could be this, could be that.

As I've said, if she got in a vehicle with someone she knew, there would be no violent homocidal scene at her parking spot.

That person could have asked to borrow Cheryl's phone after she got in the other vehicle, and that person turned it off, unbeknownst to Cheryl.

It just seems to me, if you view all this through the lens of Cheryl getting in a vehicle with someone she knew (or thought she knew) who had murderous intentions toward Cheryl, then a lot of what follows makes sense.

Cheryl's car was parked in a place she often parked. Cheryl's phone, wallet, and car keys went with her in another vehicle she got into voluntarily. The perp knew Cheryl's routine, knew where to find her, and had some ruse for Cheryl to get in his\her vehicle. The perp just got lucky that Cheryl had forgotten her badge, and offered to take her home for the badge and then take her (or them both) to work. (I am not accusing the carpool person here, though I don't recall other folks outside the family being cleared. There are probably quite a few FH employees commuting to work from the same area as Cheryl.)

Maybe someone the family would recognize is also on the security footage from traffic cams or residences.

As far as I know, no official announcement has been made as to when they think Cheryl was put in the culvert, though stryker57 thought she had been there since that Monday she went missing.

So, who else in Cheryl's sphere of family\friends\acquaintances was late to work that day? Or was unusually unavailable that day, if Cheryl was put in the culvert that night?

So many questions and unresolved mysteries.

(And if Cheryl left her car to go commit suicide, why didn't she just leave her phone and wallet in the car?)

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Article on forensic markers of different types of cuts (homicidal, self-inflicted, accidental )

http://m.forensicmed.webnode.com/wounds/sharp-force-trauma/patterns-of-sharp-force-trauma/

And another. ..

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/self-inflicted-injury/

In many suicide attempts the individual abandons the method of cutting the wrists and/or throat after a few trial incisions and turns to another kind of self-destruction which is expected to be more effective.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[otto]

If anyone from Mountlake Terrace can easily locate trail maps for the area, please post a link.

Thank you

 

[yelhsalobie]

If anyone from Mountlake Terrace can easily locate trail maps for the area, please post a link.

Thank you

What cemetery are we all talking about? What is the name of the cemetery?