Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[ANZAC]

I wonder if all these missing items were dropped down a storm drain? If we assume her plan was getting to the culvert, maybe the storm drains on the way made her think thats where i want to put the little items.

Very common location to throw wallets, phones, knives, guns. The question is which street, which drain...

 

[otto]

I honestly don't know...

That is more or less what is being proposed here, in terms of suicide.

• leave badge at home
• leave a bit late for work (in a rush)
• park in usual overflow lot
• text/connect with carpool to explain absence, but leave them in doubt
• put animal blood on the floor of the car; suggest someone is injured
• walk to Lyon Creek near the cemetery, 1.5M
• get really close to the water
• reach for a fast food plastic bag
• breath deep
• pass out
• fall into in a 2-3 foot deep, cold creek
• the stupor is not interrupted by the cold water
• breath water
• drown

 

[ANZAC]

I am more concerned that LE has a pre-conceived notion this was a suicide so they are not taking the time to follow all the leads

According to stryker they spoke to 100 people, they're waiting on additional forensic results. If they pre-considered this a suicide, they would already have stopped. They also have to convince the medical examiner. The police don't just decide it is one or the other, and they are compelled to run down every likely and many of the unlikely leads.

 

[ANZAC]

I wonder how many killers know this and thus use it to their advantage ???

I sincerely doubt that killers rely on the lack of PERFECT certainty in determining homicide vs suicide because it is VERY hard to leave no evidence of a homicidal act. There are always wounds, bruises, torn clothing, toxicological evidence, trace evidence etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locard's_exchange_principle

If you want to be a successful killer, you need to ensure the body isn't ever found. I'll stop there - we're constantly trying to think of ways to outsmart ourselves (this is the logical extension to spending much of your time finding bodies.... thinking up new ways to hide them)

 

[otto]

Let's put aside the bag right now.

Any of our rivers or creeks are cold enough that you can get cold shock response, which causes involuntarily inhalation of water. And you die. You never make it to the hypothermia stage. If the water is cold enough, even 2-3ft, this could happen, providing your face/body is in the water. I posted a link about this earlier.

Now add a bag over your head, I doubt it helps the situation.

Why should we set aside the mode of suicide ("the bag right now")?

Interesting, so it is the shock response that causes the quick air intake under water? Drown. Done. Just have to pass out before hitting the water?

How would she get to the East side of the culvert with all the brambles? Although police cut back the overgrowth, was it really not accessible upstream? I think it was.

I suspect that this is a fast moving creek after the rain?
I'm assuming that she did not walk into the culvert on the West side and walk upstream through a 6 foot diameter culvert.

 

[otto]

Very common location to throw wallets, phones, knives, guns. The question is which street, which drain...

This seems like a different situation where belongings were not thrown into a storm drain, but strewn along a creek.

Not a curb drain. If this was suicide, and animal based blood was put in the car, the razor was left in the pocket to explain the finger cuts and car console blood, then the phone is not that well hidden ... in my humble opinion.

 

[otto]

So this would be the suicide theory including cold water shock causing quick intake resulting in drowning.

• leave badge at home
• leave a bit late for work (in a rush)
• park in usual overflow lot
• text/connect with carpool to explain absence, but leave them in doubt
• put animal blood on the floor of the car; suggest someone is injured
• walk to Lyon Creek near the cemetery, 1.5M
• get really close to the water
• reach for a fast food plastic bag
• breath deep
• pass out
• fall into in a 2-3 foot deep, cold creek
• the shock initiates a deep breath under water
• breath water
• drown

 

[otto]

I sincerely doubt that killers rely on the lack of PERFECT certainty in determining homicide vs suicide because it is VERY hard to leave no evidence of a homicidal act. There are always wounds, bruises, torn clothing, toxicological evidence, trace evidence etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locard's_exchange_principle

If you want to be a successful killer, you need to ensure the body isn't ever found. I'll stop there - we're constantly trying to think of ways to outsmart ourselves (this is the logical extension to spending much of your time finding bodies.... thinking up new ways to hide them)

Joran van der Sloot was a successful killer at the age of 17, and the body was never found. He was caught because he was cocky and murdered another girl exactly 5 years later in another country. That didn't work out so well for him - prison in the Peruvian mountains.

This body wanted to be found. It popped out of a culvert that was easily visible from two directions at the same time that an injured woman was being looked for in the 1.5 Mile radius.

 

[Sea gull]

Blood that contains a preservative - how long does it take for that blood to coagulate?

It never clots once it is in a preservative like lithium-heparin or EDTA. If you have ever had your blood drawn you might have noticed the phlebotomist putting it into a vial with a green or purple top. Those are the tubes with preservatives in them and that way the lab technician can go back hours or days later and analyze your blood for whatever (cell counts, etc)

 

[yelhsalobie]

It seems that either way, whether it was a suicide or a homicide, the animal blood was staged. Why weren't there blood stains on the sidewalk or on the street anywhere? If she hit an animal or if anyone came up to Cheryl with an injured animal...with the amount of blood that stryker described...there should be a blood trail.

Also, I wonder if LE ever interviewed any of the couple of vans with people living in them that seem to be parked there regularly....maybe they would know something

 

[ANZAC]

So this would be the suicide theory including cold water shock causing quick intake resulting in drowning.

• leave badge at home
• leave a bit late for work (in a rush)
• park in usual overflow lot
• text/connect with carpool to explain absence, but leave them in doubt
• put animal blood on the floor of the car; suggest someone is injured
• walk to Lyon Creek near the cemetery, 1.5M
• get really close to the water
• reach for a fast food plastic bag
• breath deep
• pass out
• fall into in a 2-3 foot deep, cold creek
• the shock initiates a deep breath under water
• breath water
• drown

Don't forget the finger cuts, the razor in the pocket, and turn off phone and discard phone and wallet on the way to the culvert, perhaps by following the creek after traveling mostly easterly to the creek. The blood may have been put in the car at home, either that morning or the night before, most likely that morning.

I personally don't think she "fell" into the creek. I think she put the bag over her head, then stood or knelt in the water and then put herself in the water face down, to either have the cold shock reaction, or to relax enough to just eventually slip away. (I am sure some of you won't believe that bit)

 

[ANZAC]

This seems like a different situation where belongings were not thrown into a storm drain, but strewn along a creek.

Not a curb drain. If this was suicide, and animal based blood was put in the car, the razor was left in the pocket to explain the finger cuts and car console blood, then the phone is not that well hidden ... in my humble opinion.

The items could be in curb drains or in the creek (latter more likely). I assume both types of locations were searched.

 

[Sea gull]

The coagulation of blood once it is outside the body is an active process involving over 30 clotting proteins and platelets and it is much different that blood just drying out. The clotting cascade starts immediately after the blood is outside of the endothelium (this is why we don't normally have clotted blood in our veins with the exception of some diseases). The blood without preservatives, usually clots in 6-10 minutes and this clotting cascade is activated regardless of temperature or humidity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coagulation

I guess my whole point in the above quote is that regardless of the weather, I think the animal blood would have been totally clotted by the time it was discovered by the police unless:
1. It was super fresh and put there minutes before the police discovered it (not likely)
2. It was mixed with an anticoagulant preservative first before being put in the car (possible if the blood came from a lab or vet clinic and was planted in the car by someone)
3. It came from an animal with a clotting disorder (preposterous)
or wait for it.......
4. It was actually myoglobin. ( I hope I never hear that word again)

Having said that, once blood clots, it doesn't really turn into a hard "brick" it is more like jelly (sorry to be gross) so even in its clotted state, it might still be described as smear-able I guess. The question is, was the animal blood fully liquid or clotted?

 

[TeaTime]

Joran van der Sloot was a successful killer at the age of 17, and the body was never found. He was caught because he was cocky and murdered another girl exactly 5 years later in another country. That didn't work out so well for him - prison in the Peruvian mountains.

This body wanted to be found. It popped out of a culvert that was easily visible from two directions at the same time that an injured woman was being looked for in the 1.5 Mile radius.

There is a show on about Natalee right now. I think Joran's dad helped him get rid of Natalee's body and this is what killed him at a young age.

The killer of Mrs. DeBoer wanted the body to be found. It was just a matter of time before a county worker going about their normal day came across the body in the culvert which so happens to be within the normal missing person search radius.

Anyone have a map of the areas searched and when?

 

[ANZAC]

Why should we set aside the mode of suicide ("the bag right now")?

The bag was not necessary to die (assuming the water was cold enough). I think it was a form of "doubling up".

Interesting, so it is the shock response that causes the quick air intake under water? Drown. Done. Just have to pass out before hitting the water?

There's no need to pass out, just to have your core (I think) in the water as well as your mouth. I've seen a drowning victim who died this way. (white river) According to the ME she died VERY quickly.

How would she get to the East side of the culvert with all the brambles? Although police cut back the overgrowth, was it really not accessible upstream? I think it was.

Perhaps below the water level? This bit I am not really sure of. I'd need to know the exact position of the body and what was found on the east side.

I suspect that this is a fast moving creek after the rain?
I'm assuming that she did not walk into the culvert on the West side and walk upstream through a 6 foot diameter culvert.

That west side looks a lot more inviting to me, but I take your point about the flow direction. I'm not really sure. I'd go as far as she "got in the water and immersed her face with a bag over her head".

Who knows, maybe she did this further up in the creek somewhere, and the body moved as far as the culvert and stopped on the west side. I've seen bodies stationary in fast moving rivers due to eddies, rocks, branches, whatever.

I think these are all good questions - i.e. what exactly happened at the creek/culvert? Where did she enter the water? And in what orientation?

 

[ANZAC]

which so happens to be within the normal missing person search radius.

There's no such thing as a normal missing person search radius. The process doesn't work that way, though it may wind up that way (expanding spiral search).

Anyone have a map of the areas searched and when?

I asked if people had links to video coverage of the search and I could give an educated guess.

SAR teams either mark up maps, or record GPS tracks which are collated and form part of the documentation of the search. None of this has been (or will be) made public.

 

[TeaTime]

There's no such thing as a normal missing person search radius. The process doesn't work that way, though it may wind up that way (expanding spiral search).



I asked if people had links to video coverage of the search and I could give an educated guess.

SAR teams either mark up maps, or record GPS tracks which are collated and form part of the documentation of the search. None of this has been (or will be) made public.

Surely you know more than I but it seems that the ground searches start at the last place the missing person was known to be and then out in a radius of 2 miles or so. The searchers that found her were a group of co-workers, not professional searchers, IIRC.

I would like to know how this St. Valentine's Day search area was chosen and by whom.

 

[anonymess]

Thank you Anzac for the info on cold shock. I hadn't heard of it, just assumed it would be hypothermia. I read up on it more here http://www.coldwatersafety.org/ColdShock.html

Not gonna lie, hypoxia doesn't sound like a given in this scenario, and it sounds like it could be a scary experience. If I'd been researching it as an option back when I was at my worst, I would've added drugs or a gas like helium or nitrogen to prevent panic moments and make it more peaceful. But maybe at my personal worst I was still rational :/

Ugh mental illness is so complex; I wish we had better diagnosis, treatment tools, access to care and less stigma. Breaks my heart that we have people suffering such that cold water shock death would be enticing to anyone.

 

[otto]

It never clots once it is in a preservative like lithium-heparin or EDTA. If you have ever had your blood drawn you might have noticed the phlebotomist putting it into a vial with a green or purple top. Those are the tubes with preservatives in them and that way the lab technician can go back hours or days later and analyze your blood for whatever (cell counts, etc)

The fact that the blood is smear-able 8-9 hours later (Cheryl left home at 6:50-ish AM and her car was found after 4PM, roughly 8-9 hours later) suggests that there is a preservative in the blood - from a layperson's perspective.

 

[Sun009]

Very common location to throw wallets, phones, knives, guns. The question is which street, which drain...

If she did walk to the culvert, I don't think she zigzagged through the side streets, so whatever the main path is, 244th? I would guess there. I don't know how many drains there are in the first quarter mile....though. If there had to be a pattern, I would say things went in a storm drain, she headed to the culvert. I can't see her doing any of this, but I don't see her throwing them, putting them in someone's garbage can, or burying them.

I don't know if there is a drain anymore obvious than the next on 244th? but I'd guess a drain in the first quarter mile, maybe where it starts to get less busy. So at a 4-way stop...if she saw no cars? If this was all going in steps for her, I don't think she would want to keep thinking of how she was still clinging to them, and she probably wouldn't be in a rush to drop them in the first one around, just where one seemed obvious and also relaxed enough....