Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[Yvettea]

Did Cheryl have an appointment that was not above board at 7:05AM that morning? If so, who?

An above board meeting to:

• Pick up that calendar you ordered from your favorite charity
• select a paint color
• Deliver something you have to them

Just examples.

 

[otto]

Let's think about this from another perspective. We all know women in their 50s. Sure they're struggling with getting old, and perhaps some develop a mental disorder that leads to them constructing their own demise, but at the same time we need to use common sense.

Cheryl was a healthy (hiker, hunter, outdoors person), fully employed, happily married mom with a network of friends. If she were suicidal, sure she would want to hide that, but to then compromise everything to ensure that the last glimpses of consciousness were the inside of a drainage ditch? That's way out-there for an outdoors person. Even mentally ill outdoors persons can find a cleaner way to go out than a drainage ditch and a puddle of animal blood on the floor boards of the passenger seat of the car.

 

[otto]

An above board meeting to:

• Pick up that calendar you ordered from your favorite charity
• select a paint color
• Deliver something you have to them

Just examples.

Someone delivering a calendar from a charity at 7:05 in the morning on a street near the carpool? No. Don't buy it. Rational people don't do that. Furthermore, there's an electronic record.

Deliveries are ordered through work or home, and delivered as such. No one arranges to make deliveries on random streets unless they are shady.

 

[Jen Darme]

Cheryl parked on a street used when the P&R spaces are filled and by people who avoid the traffic bottlenecks at the P&R. She parked her car around 7 am. A woman who spoke to police said she parked behind Cheryl's car at 8 am. Was that space available for an hour during the morning rush or had someone else been parked there and left before 8?

Toxicology testing looks for common substances. It's not feasible to test for everything. When they finally went after Charles Cullen, the nurse who admitted to 30-40 murders, the tox screen on the first victim autopsied missed his drug of choice, digoxin. It and many other drugs cause unconsciousness or even cooperative sedation.

I updated my partners on all we now know, laying the info out chronologically. The first response was, "Who has it out for the local PD?" They think it was a crime of opportunity, that it only takes a few seconds to grab someone from behind in a bear hug and plop them into the back of a van or work truck. With two people involved, one to drive, one to subdue, abduction could happen very quickly and without notice. Cheryl could've been called over to the vehicle or walked by, perhaps slowly as she sent the text.

 

[otto]

Cheryl parked on a street used when the P&R spaces are filled and by people who avoid the traffic bottlenecks at the P&R. She parked her car around 7 am. A woman who spoke to police said she parked behind Cheryl's car at 8 am. Was that space available for an hour during the morning rush or had someone else been parked there and left before 8?

Toxicology testing looks for common substances. It's not feasible to test for everything. When they finally went after Charles Cullen, the nurse who admitted to 30-40 murders, the tox screen on the first victim autopsied missed his drug of choice, digoxin. It and many other drugs cause unconsciousness or even cooperative sedation.

I updated my partners on all we now know, laying the info out chronologically. The first response was, "Who has it out for the local PD?" They think it was a crime of opportunity, that it only takes a few seconds to grab someone from behind in a bear hug and plop them into the back of a van or work truck. With two people involved, one to drive, one to subdue, abduction could happen very quickly and without notice. Cheryl could've been called over to the vehicle or walked by, perhaps slowly as she sent the text.

We don't know that the space behind Cheryl's car was available between 7:02AM and 8AM, but we do know that it was free at 8AM, and that her car was in that location at 8AM.

Cheryl may have been suffocated in her car, or in another vehicle. She could have been dropped into Lyon Creek without sustaining any defensive injuries or other injuries. However, it pretty much requires that the person who did this knew her, as there are no obvious signs of sexual assault or robbery ... although it is possible that this was a completely random victim murder for thrills. As a murder-for-thrills, it will never make sense.

 

[JanetElaine]

There has been mention in the threads about a person willing themselves to stay in the plastic bag/stay in the water to drown. It has been said that this is quite a feat to accomplish, but it has been done. Stryker said Cheryl was claustrophobic. I'm thinking for her it would be double the effort to will herself to do such a thing. I'm definitely not trying to force this to be a homicide, I just have way too many questions left either way.

 

[otto]

The point that police made about "sensitive information" - let's revisit that for a moment. The understanding from the beginning was that "sensitive information" could mean information that the family did not want released.

"Mountlake Terrace police concede they’re holding back on releasing “sensitive information” about the death of Cheryl DeBoer until toxicology and forensic analysis of her computer and cellphone records are complete."

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...n-continues-as-police-await-forensic-results/

The community was led to believe that when that "sensitive information" was released, they would understand why it was withheld.

Let's assume that the sensitive information was that Cheryl was found face down in a drainage ditch with a fast-food restaurant plastic bag over her head - indicating suicide - and that police were being sensitive to the family by withholding that information ... pending toxicology and forensic analysis of her computer.

Today we know that toxicology does not support that initial "sensitive information" claim of suicide, and neither does the computer search. At this time, I doubt that a cell phone record search will support the police theory either.

Police have set the stage for "sensitive information" to be released later that will explain it all, yet knowing that Cheryl was asphyxiated and drowned, with no electronic interest in suicide or places to commit suicide, and no drugs to induce asphyxia and drowning, only leads to more questions.

 

[dizzychick]

We don't know that the space behind Cheryl's car was available between 7:02AM and 8AM, but we do know that it was free at 8AM, and that her car was in that location at 8AM.

Cheryl may have been suffocated in her car, or in another vehicle. She could have been dropped into Lyon Creek without sustaining any defensive injuries or other injuries. However, it pretty much requires that the person who did this knew her, as there are no obvious signs of sexual assault or robbery ... although it is possible that this was a completely random victim murder for thrills. As a murder-for-thrills, it will never make sense.

and the cold water made her gasp and take her last breath hence the small amount of water in her lungs, I also think she knew her killer

 

[otto]

There has been mention in the threads about a person willing themselves to stay in the plastic bag/stay in the water to drown. It has been said that this is quite a feat to accomplish, but it has been done. Stryker said Cheryl was claustrophobic. I'm thinking for her it would be double the effort to will herself to do such a thing. I'm definitely not trying to force this to be a homicide, I just have way too many questions left either way.

It's absurd to believe that a conscious person would walk into a 2-3 foot deep cold creek and try to die. There's an innate reflex to breath, so a conscious person could not overcome instinct to commit suicide this way. The only way that this would work is if the person was unconscious when breathing/inhaling water. That explains the ruling of asphyxia and drowning, because even the Medical Examiner notes that it is impossible to be conscious and to willfully drown in shallow water.

A claustrophobic person is even more unlikely to choose a cold, dark, culvert to sit in water and pass out/drown.

 

[otto]

and the cold water made her gasp and take her last breath hence the small amount of water in her lungs, I also think she knew her killer

As a murder, this seems like it has to be someone she knew, or a random thrill kill. Police have essentially ruled out robbery and sexual assault - although ruling out sexual assault is pretty much out of the question when the body is found in water.

Russell Williams, former military man and serial murderer, allowed his last victim to get dressed and walk out of the bedroom. He led authorities to her body, but if her body had been found in water there would be nothing about her clothing that would lead to the conclusion that she had been victimized.

She didn't have any broken bones or injuries. She was simply terrorized into cooperating.

 

[Jen Darme]

Yep, and her abductor could've been parked in that space. Did the police canvas everyone who parked along that street that morning? The police department is right there. Was this someone with some inside info of how things work and where the weaknesses are in local investigations whether due to resources or internal politics?

The day after Cheryl's body was found, after they knew she had a bag on her head and they worked into the night at the culvert, Pickard was asking for anyone who saw anything suspicious to come forward:

“We know people walk their animals around there,” Pickard said. “We want to know if they saw any suspicious vehicles or people or heard any noises. Maybe they saw suspicious items on the sidewalk.”​

The one who has since strongly implied it was suicide is Police Chief Greg Wilson. I wonder how often he's opted to stand in 2-3 ft of flowing cold, cold water in his work clothes. Explaining that as the irrational behavior of a suicide strikes me as a real life version of deus ex machina.

We don't know that the space behind Cheryl's car was available between 7:02AM and 8AM, but we do know that it was free at 8AM, and that her car was in that location at 8AM.

Cheryl may have been suffocated in her car, or in another vehicle. She could have been dropped into Lyon Creek without sustaining any defensive injuries or other injuries. However, it pretty much requires that the person who did this knew her, as there are no obvious signs of sexual assault or robbery ... although it is possible that this was a completely random victim murder for thrills. As a murder-for-thrills, it will never make sense.

 

[otto]

Why is Police Chief Greg Wilson looking for the easy solution that ignores the irregularities of the easy solution?

If Cheryl walked to the culvert, someone should have seen Cheryl walking to the culvert, or seen something suspicious. Yet, it appears that no one saw either Cheryl walking 1.5 miles to her self-managed demise, or anything suspicious. No one saw anything that supports suicide or murder, but one would expect that if she walked 1.5 miles a lot more people should have seen her. With a quick dump murder, fewer people would be expected to see or hear something.

Can the police chief present his theory of how a claustrophobic person commits suicide in a drainage ditch early on a Monday morning without drugs or any record of planning?

 

[ANZAC]

The point that police made about "sensitive information" - let's revisit that for a moment. The understanding from the beginning was that "sensitive information" could mean information that the family did not want released.

"Mountlake Terrace police concede they’re holding back on releasing “sensitive information” about the death of Cheryl DeBoer until toxicology and forensic analysis of her computer and cellphone records are complete."

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...n-continues-as-police-await-forensic-results/

The community was led to believe that when that "sensitive information" was released, they would understand why it was withheld.

Typically police withhold "holdback" information. This is used to later validate or disprove statements witnesses make. Because they don't have a clear suicide or homicide MOD from the ME, they can't release all they know, in case the remaining forensics point towards homicide.

If there was something "sensitive to the family" (eg she has having an affair and was dumped and was despondent) then I'm sorry, they would have already told the family, and the family wouldn't be wondering what happened.

 

[ANZAC]

Why is Police Chief Greg Wilson looking for the easy solution that ignores the irregularities of the easy solution?

If Cheryl walked to the culvert, someone should have seen Cheryl walking to the culvert, or seen something suspicious. Yet, it appears that no one saw either Cheryl walking 1.5 miles to her self-managed demise, or anything suspicious. No one saw anything that supports suicide or murder, but one would expect that if she walked 1.5 miles a lot more people should have seen her. With a quick dump murder, fewer people would be expected to see or hear something.

Can the police chief present his theory of how a claustrophobic person commits suicide in a drainage ditch early on a Monday morning without drugs or any record of planning?

If you think someone saw her, they probably did and probably didn't realize it or won't come forward. If there was a murderer, then why didn't someone see them with Chery either walking or getting out of a car? And how did the murdered kill her without a struggle, without anyone seeing the struggle, and without leaving any marks or evidence?

The fact no one has said they saw her doesn't mean it was homicide or suicide.

 

[ANZAC]

It's absurd to believe that a conscious person would walk into a 2-3 foot deep cold creek and try to die. There's an innate reflex to breath, so a conscious person could not overcome instinct to commit suicide this way. The only way that this would work is if the person was unconscious when breathing/inhaling water. That explains the ruling of asphyxia and drowning, because even the Medical Examiner notes that it is impossible to be conscious and to willfully drown in shallow water.

As I mentioned before, we've had MORE than one person commit suicide by drowning themselves in shallow water. You can be conscious and then drown, it happens. (The people with cold shock response drown while conscious)

 

[otto]

Typically police withhold "holdback" information. This is used to later validate or disprove statements witnesses make. Because they don't have a clear suicide or homicide MOD from the ME, they can't release all they know, in case the remaining forensics point towards homicide.

If there was something "sensitive to the family" (eg she has having an affair and was dumped and was despondent) then I'm sorry, they would have already told the family, and the family wouldn't be wondering what happened.

That's not true. Police will withhold information about a death if the information indicates suicide. That is done specifically to protect the family and allow them to present the information as they see fit. However, in this case, the family revealed parts of that information in a discussion forum, prompting police to reveal all of the "sensitive information", including details about animal blood and a razor in the pocket.

 

[otto]

If you think someone saw her, they probably did and probably didn't realize it or won't come forward. If there was a murderer, then why didn't someone see them with Chery either walking or getting out of a car? And how did the murdered kill her without a struggle, without anyone seeing the struggle, and without leaving any marks or evidence?

The fact no one has said they saw her doesn't mean it was homicide or suicide.

For weeks I read that the culvert intersection is near a freeway, and traffic is heavy at rush hour. We know that the route between that intersection and the Park and Ride must be busy - because people are driving in from surrounding areas, and nearby neighborhoods (like Cheryl).

It has been suggested that someone was in Cheryl's car when she got into the car in the morning. If that is the case, why did she immediately drive to her usual area and text a friend about the badge? She did forget the badge, and someone hiding in her car would not know that. I think that rules out "someone hiding in the car".

No one saw Cheryl get out of her car at 7:02AM to walk to the creek, and no one saw anything happen to her at her car. No one saw anything, yet there is animal blood in her car.

 

[ANZAC]

If she was murdered prior to being put into the creek, drowning would be a cause of death.

If she was murdered BEFORE going in the creek, and it didn't involve water, drowning would NOT be the cause of death.

Given that it was asphyxia and drowning, we know that she was still breathing (albeit perhaps unconscious) when she entered the water. If she drowned, then water was found in her lungs. The plastic bag over her head probably adds the asphyxia ruling.

You can have water in the lungs postmortem even if you didn't drown, there is some way they can tell you were actually trying to breathe the water ("hemolysis").

She could have been asphyxiated prior to being put into the water alive. That has happened before.

Asphyxiated+dead, or some other state?

 

[ANZAC]

and the cold water made her gasp and take her last breath hence the small amount of water in her lungs, I also think she knew her killer

Beyond the fish designation of the creek, does anyone know the actual water temp of it at the day she went missing? Pretty much all the water up here is typically "very cold".

 

[ANZAC]

Autopsies are confidential in Wa.

As I mentioned previously, the family has standing to request a copy.