WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #2

[leftcoast]

Yeah well as you know that's not all that upsets me about H-B. I just don't see any randomness to his supposed blundering.

I've got a question for you. If you were H-B, and the facts are as they are in this case WRT to hijacking, and your intent was to bury the investigation and let your friend off, how would you have done anything differently than H-B did?

OD

The most obvious is that I wouldn't pick a convicted felon as a partner.

And, I wouldn't write a book about the case. I would want the case to die, not try to get publicity for the case.

Plus, by meeting with people like Weber's widow, H-bach is admitting that Cooper could have survived. If you are so convinced he died, why even open that door.

I wouldn't admit to a private citizen that I didn't know where tEd was from 2-10 during the hijacking. All he had to say was "I checked TEd out, and know where he was during the hijacking", and we would have gone away.

Or H-bach could have simply "lied" and said, oh, I called Ted from the Portland airport while Cooper was on the plane, just to get expertise from him. This would be foolproof. It would not be logged in by fBI operators, and there is no way to prove it didn't happen. Case would have been closed.

I will admit though that there are some "strange" things that happened during the investigation. My gut tells me it is from tunnel vision, but, I would be a fool not to consider other possibilities.


Isn't it funny that TED admits to jumping over the area that Cooper was known to have left the airplane.

I thought that area was filled with trees? I thought it was unsafe? Heck, why wasn't Ted looking for a dead Cooper, or the money on the ground? Everyone else in Oregon and Washington was looking for a dead man, and 200,000. Hmm. Ya think maybe Ted knew the guy got away with it?

it's funny, how we hear these stories about how criminals love to re-live their crimes. Serial killers who keep driver's licenses, etc. What about a man who dives in the same spot, goes to the parties at Ariel, etc. Does this sound like someone who out of the goodness of their heart called the FBI on 11/24 and tried to assist the FBI? heck no.

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[lorann]

With everything you have brought out for quite some time, do you know if the FBI has re-investigated? Checked on anything? Even if the local office thinks you are kooks, wouldn't they have to check things out? They surely can't go by the word of a criminal or a retired agent - investigative tools have progressed so much since this crime was committed. They can say they used "new technology" thus saving the old agent. I know they probably wouldn't keep you appraised of their actions but surely you'd get wind of any investigations going on. To keep the image of them getting their man no matter how long it takes, it would be good publicity for them too.

If one of the national shows did take this case up, perhaps that would force the FBI to at least make a statement.

 

[leftcoast]

Lorann

I don't know what the FBI is doing. One would hope they would at least check to see if any of the 67 latents match Ted.

I don't see the upside for the FBI to admit they failed to look at Ted. Sure, it wasn't the current agents, but it wouldn't look good.

At the same time, the current agents could make their own name by solving this case and having it prosecuted. I think it is a long shot.

Then again, the FBI owes it to Florence and Tina to close this case out, if at all possible.

Maybe a "60 minutes" piece is what is needed to get the attention this case deserves.

It defies logic that 36 years later, the FBI still doesn't know where Ted was between 2 and 10 pm on that night.

It also defies logic that an agent wouldn't think it necessary to personally interview a witness to a crime that he is trying to solve.

Maybe, if he interviewed the witnesses, he would have noticed that one of the witnesses said Cooper was 40, and that some of the other witnesses really never got a good look at the guy, but, wanted to be part of the case.

How anybody can estimate height while somebody is seated, age while somebody is disguised in glasses with dyed hair, is beyond me.

A little common sense goes a long way, and it is free. You are born with it.

And then to think a convicted armed robber, who you personally assisted in getting kicked out of an airport where he had a business, would call to assist you, on Thanksgiving Eve, is beyond comprehension.

Funny thing, of all the skydivers Ted knows, he NEVER once called in a potential suspect to H-bach in 36 years. Not once.

Was he really assisting in the investigation, or was he steering the investigation away from himself?


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[Old Dominion]

I'm not sure if I grabbed that quote right. I'm still learning how to use this site.


HB, as LC has said, would have distanced himself from any mention of Teddy. He could have easily taken the wind out of the sails of the case by strengthening Teddy's alibi. There are plenty of things HB could have done to permanently drive away any investigation of Teddy. So to suggest that HB might have been in on it because no one could bungle things that badly, or to suggest that the bunglings have a pattern would necessarily have to say that the pattern itself is flawed. So either he bungled the case, or he bungled being in on it. Either way, HB bungled it. To my mind, the evidence strongly points to him not being in on it.

RC,

It's good to see you join the discussion. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. I'm not assuming that H-B was in on it, but rather that he may have realized after a certain period of time (whereby the case had not progressed) that he'd have to reevaluate the evidence. Obviously this means he'd have had to at least "kick the tires" of Teddy's alibi. Everything I've seen in this case shows that he never wanted to take any path that might lead him back to Mayfield. Even random "bungling" might have taken some skydiver photos, even as a start, to the stewardesses, but he chose not to even talk to them. I just don't find this to be "random" or "haphazard" in any way. I'm still open to the fact that this could be incompetence on steroids, but it just doesn't look that way to me.

OD

 

[Old Dominion]

The most obvious is that I wouldn't pick a convicted felon as a partner.

I'm assuming he never "picked" a partner. He inherited an investigation that after some period of time would have been obvious to anyone that for thoroughness the 10pm call as well as Teddy's whereabouts would have had to have been looked into. This is a matter of procedure.

And, I wouldn't write a book about the case. I would want the case to die, not try to get publicity for the case.

At the time that book was written, Teddy-boy had been living unfettered for about 15 years. Why not make a little money and explain your methodology in investigating this case? This could become "record" in case anyone ever suggested you "buried" the case. After all, you have every right to believe in the "Big Splat"** theory, and there are no prisons for incompetence. Besides, how often is TM mentioned in Norjack?

Plus, by meeting with people like Weber's widow, H-bach is admitting that Cooper could have survived. If you are so convinced he died, why even open that door.

Or, for those who will NEVER buy the "Big Splat" theory, he's offering a dead man as an alternate scenario. Like any entity interested in customer service, he tries to have something for everyone. Either way, it keeps people from asking "What's behind that curtain labeled "Hillsboro truck driver"?"

I wouldn't admit to a private citizen that I didn't know where tEd was from 2-10 during the hijacking. All he had to say was "I checked TEd out, and know where he was during the hijacking", and we would have gone away.

Maybe not, but he can't afford to lie either. Remember that for 30+ years Ted has been a non issue. How much lying did that take? No reason to start now. Again, there are no prisons for "incompetence". H-B may be a little smarter than you think.

Or H-bach could have simply "lied" and said, oh, I called Ted from the Portland airport while Cooper was on the plane, just to get expertise from him. This would be foolproof. It would not be logged in by fBI operators, and there is no way to prove it didn't happen. Case would have been closed.

Please see my previous answer.

I will admit though that there are some "strange" things that happened during the investigation. My gut tells me it is from tunnel vision, but, I would be a fool not to consider other possibilities.

How long does "tunnel vision" w/o results persist before a light bulb comes on? Seriously, even for someone with a room temperature IQ?

OD

** "Big Splat" is a theory that Cooper hit the ground hard, or "bought the farm".

 

[leftcoast]

I'm assuming he never "picked" a partner. He inherited an investigation that after some period of time would have been obvious to anyone that for thoroughness the 10pm call as well as Teddy's whereabouts would have had to have been looked into. This is a matter of procedure.

For someone with "street smarts". Btw. h-bach knew this case would be his the moment the 164 call came over the FBI radio. h-bach was pre-selected to be in-charge of all hijackings in portland since he was an "expert", cough, cough, of hijackings. Part of the rationale, was because h-bach was one of two agents who was also a pilot.


At the time that book was written, Teddy-boy had been living unfettered for about 15 years. Why not make a little money and explain your methodology in investigating this case? This could become "record" in case anyone ever suggested you "buried" the case. After all, you have every right to believe in the "Big Splat"** theory, and there are no prisons for incompetence. Besides, how often is TM mentioned in Norjack?





Or, for those who will NEVER buy the "Big Splat" theory, he's offering a dead man as an alternate scenario. Like any entity interested in customer service, he tries to have something for everyone. Either way, it keeps people from asking "What's behind that curtain labeled "Hillsboro truck driver"?"

Couldn't h-bach have used the McCoy death in 1974, and hence said, hey, I solved the case.



Maybe not, but he can't afford to lie either. Remember that for 30+ years Ted has been a non issue. How much lying did that take? No reason to start now. Again, there are no prisons for "incompetence". H-B may be a little smarter than you think.

I don't think he is stupid, I just don't think he is "street smart".



Please see my previous answer.



How long does "tunnel vision" w/o results persist before a light bulb comes on? Seriously, even for someone with a room temperature IQ?

That's a great question for whomever was the Agent in Charge of the Portland office. Where was management? Heck, in 1975, the FBI even considered draining Lake Merwin.

Heck, Matt and I are do at least 100g's a piece for solving this one.

OD

** "Big Splat" is a theory that Cooper hit the ground hard, or "bought the farm".

Even Tosaw, a man who I believe is a good investigator, had a chance to solve this case in 84. Heck, I'll bet he even talked to good old Teddy. But like h-bach, Tosaw already made a decision, and all he did was look for evidence to strengthen his decision. Tosaw bought the Big Splat theory, now all he had to do is explain away the three packets on the banks of the Columbia. Even that explanation is based on a "what if", on top of a "what if", on top of a "what if",etc.etc. Mathematically impossible theory.

Heck, he even dragged the Columbia river.

Tosaw, hire Adnoid to do some simple math.

There is no way in this world that the 727 was even within 20 miles of the Columbia river when Cooper jumped.

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[Old Dominion]

Even Tosaw, a man who I believe is a good investigator, had a chance to solve this case in 84. Heck, I'll bet he even talked to good old Teddy. But like h-bach, Tosaw already made a decision, and all he did was look for evidence to strengthen his decision. Tosaw bought the Big Splat theory, now all he had to do is explain away the three packets on the banks of the Columbia. Even that explanation is based on a "what if", on top of a "what if", on top of a "what if",etc.etc. Mathematically impossible theory.

Whose attorney is Tosaw? That's right, whose attorney is he?

Heck, he even dragged the Columbia river.
Tosaw, hire Adnoid to do some simple math.
There is no way in this world that the 727 was even within 20 miles of the Columbia river when Cooper jumped.

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What about poor 'ol Jerry Thomas? Spending all his time combing the Washoughal (sp?) for a body with that little pitch fork? LC didn't you and I cover the "Washougal" many years ago on another planet, another time, and another forum? Do you really believe in "INCOMPETENCE" as a TOTAL explanation for ANYTHING?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Tosaw ended up representing Brian Ingram in court. Brian Ingram was the little boy who found the 6,000 buried in the sand on the banks of the Columbia river in 1980. Tosaw had met Brian and his family in 1983, while he was researching his book, and hence, ended up representing him in Federal court in an attempt to get some of the money he found in 1980.

I agree, that Washougal theory is out of this world.

In it, H-bach admits that Cooper could have landed alive. Then, we are suppose to believe that Cooper hiked 20 miles "away" from town, to the Washougal because he needed water? PLease.

If the guy was healthy enough to hike 20 miles, he was certainly healthy enough to make it the one or two miles it takes to hike to the nearest road, cabin, highway, etc.

I wonder what H-bach's theory was "before" the money was found on the banks of the Columbia. I'll bet you anything, that his theory was that Cooper was dead in the Ginford Pinchot National Forest.

But, the discovery of the money on a river bank, buried, kind of blew that theory out of the water. So, let's come up with a new theory.

It's funny, how every one of H-bach's theories have Cooper dead, yet, 36 years later, there has been no sign of a body, chute, money bag, or anything other than that placard and the 6,000.

Talk about stacking a "what if" on top of a "what if".

It is funny, that H-bach never considered the most likely scenario.

that is, the hijacker was a local skydiver, who knew the terrain, who had a criminal past, and was in desperate need of money, and was approaching middle aged, landed safely, had a get-a-way plan, and just fooled the FBi. Na, that is just too logical.

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[leftcoast]

How much information do you have on where that placard was found and here it came from on the plane?

Hi Adnoid

Glad to hear from you.

After the 727 landed in Reno, the plane was printed and processed by the FBI. During this examination, it was learned that the placard which was fastened next to the handle which lowered the aft stairs was missing. This placard, which basically gave instructions on how to lower the aftstairs, was thought to have blown away somewhere during the flight.

In 1979, a hunter in an area near Silverlake Washington, found the placard while walking through the forest. Remarkably, he remembered the Cooper case, and phoned the FBI and turned in the placard.

The spot where the placard was found, is right on v-23, about 10 miles (give or take) south of the Malay VOR, or about 10 minutes north of where Cooper was thought to have jumped.

My take, has always been, that the placard either blew out when Cooper finally was able to get the aftstairs deployed (about 8:03pm), or from the sharp turn the plane made (and the first major bank) at the Malay VOR.

Of course, it is always possible, that Cooper jumped at this spot, and that the FBI had the jumpsite incorrectly guaged.

However, given the strong evidence which points at 8:13pm, I am 99% confident that Cooper jumped at 8:13pm.

Amazing, isn't it. That a small, 12 x 9 placard could be found in the middle of the forest right below v-23, but Cooper was never found.

This is yet further proof that the plane was on V-23, was on course, and that the timing and location of where Cooper is thought to have jumped is very close to FBI estimates.

Interesting side note: I couldn't disclose this three months ago when we were discussing V-23, and the Malay VOR. But, in the aeronautical chart of V-23 which Adnoid provided, there was a "parachute" symbol on that chart. It means there is a skydiving center, at that location. Well, guess who trained the owner of that skydiving center? You got it, Teddy.

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[Old Dominion]

In it, H-bach admits that Cooper could have landed alive. Then, we are suppose to believe that Cooper hiked 20 miles "away" from town, to the Washougal because he needed water? PLease.

If the guy was healthy enough to hike 20 miles, he was certainly healthy enough to make it the one or two miles it takes to hike to the nearest road, cabin, highway, etc.

I wonder what H-bach's theory was "before" the money was found on the banks of the Columbia. I'll bet you anything, that his theory was that Cooper was dead in the Ginford Pinchot National Forest.

But, the discovery of the money on a river bank, buried, kind of blew that theory out of the water. So, let's come up with a new theory.

It's funny, how every one of H-bach's theories have Cooper dead, yet, 36 years later, there has been no sign of a body, chute, money bag, or anything other than that placard and the 6,000.

Yep. Don't look for anything but a "dead man". And if you won't buy that he died during the jump I'll offer you Jo's husband, who BTW is also dead. Just don't go asking any questions about a 5'8" stocky pilot/skydiver.

It is funny, that H-bach never considered the most likely scenario.

that is, the hijacker was a local skydiver, who knew the terrain, who had a criminal past, and was in desperate need of money, and was approaching middle aged, landed safely, had a get-a-way plan, and just fooled the FBi. Na, that is just too logical.

I'm more convinced than ever he didn't want to. Again, a rudimentary amount of methodology would have covered for all the incompetence and blundering in the world. Even the BEST investigators fall back on "procedure" as a catch all just to make sure. Average (or less) investigators have no reason whatsoever for not applying a fair amount of this. H-B applied none. He took this case down a tributary with what has been described as a "closed mind". There is no excuse for this, other than an agenda.

I just can't see anyone...ANYONE set on solving this case doing what H-B did, regardless of how smart they may or may not be. I find it equally hard to believe that FBI MGMT would have allowed for 10 years let alone 10 months of ZERO progress in this case w/o changes/mandates etc. Sumpin' just aint' right here!

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I agree that something is fishy, no pun intended, about this case.

Was it really FBI protocol to only have one agent investigate such an important case? And is it FBI protocol to not interview witnesses?

Wouldn't anybody with a half of a brain, say in early 1972, after the 400 troops from FT Lewis spent six weeks looking for a dead man underneath v-23, start to think that just maybe the guy got away?

Then, the most logical assumption, is to look at your "top 10" tips, the guys with the most calls about them possibly being Cooper, and ask yourself, Why couldn't he be Cooper?

You can only be one place at one time. That is why the FBI, Police, and every other intelligent organization ALWAYS asks suspects, suspects wives, etc, where they were while a crime was committed.

This case should have been treated the same way.

Anybody with a half a brain, should simply say, OK, let's assume Cooper landed safely, had a car waiting for him, and was able to escape from the dropzone. So, best case scenario, Cooper could be at a tavern, bowling alley, theatre, etc, by 8:30pm. So, using the best case scenario, everyone should have been asked where they were from the time Cooper boarded the plane at 3pm, until Cooper jumped at 8:13pm. To be safe, I would ask everyone where they were from noon until midnight. But, then again, I have thought the case through, and want it solved.

OD. This is either the "king" of incompetence, or something much more sinister.

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[leftcoast]

This is how you work a case:

Assume each and every suspect is Cooper, and make the suspect prove to you that he isn't Cooper.

It almost seems like h-bach did the opposite. Assumed all suspects were innocent, and tried to prove why he thought they were innocent.

It's as if H-bach was looking for reasons why each and every suspect was not Cooper, instead of looking at reasons why each and every suspect "could" be Cooper. Reverse logic.

That is either backwards logic, brain fart, or something much worse.

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[Old Dominion]

I'd love to see that '74 photo in front of Tina. I realize it's been a long time, and time is DEFINITELY on the side of Teddy, but the right response could land 20/20 or 60 min, even if it took a retired agent to get it there.

I know Tina won't talk to anyone but the FBI, but she might talk to a retired agent. You had mentioned that you spoke to several who agreed with your case (but didn't call the FBI). What are the chances one of them willl at least help out?

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I'd love to see that '74 photo in front of Tina. I realize it's been a long time, and time is DEFINITELY on the side of Teddy, but the right response could land 20/20 or 60 min, even if it took a retired agent to get it there.

I know Tina won't talk to anyone but the FBI, but she might talk to a retired agent. You had mentioned that you spoke to several who agreed with your case (but didn't call the FBI). What are the chances one of them willl at least help out?

OD

Actually, the retired FBI agent, who met with us for the lunch with H-bach, was just an acquaintance. He is "friends" with H-bach, so, I don't see any chance of that happening.

As far as Tina is concerned. Did you watch the video on youtube? That is very much accurate as to her personality. Not everyone in these cases wants to help. I still wonder if Cooper threatened their lives, or their familes, if they gave up anything about him. Remember though, Ted said he "heard" that Cooper was "gentle". I guess it makes it easier to sleep at night.

I think this case is going to take "physical" evidence, such as a print, DNA from cig.(almost impossible), or someone close to our suspect who may have seen something, or suspected something.

Ex-wives, and he has a few, are the best at getting dirt. That is where I would start if I was the FBI.

Next, would be employees, the woman who leased the land, etc.


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[Old Dominion]

Then, the most logical assumption, is to look at your "top 10" tips, the guys with the most calls about them possibly being Cooper, and ask yourself, Why couldn't he be Cooper?

left

Yup. Especially when after a certain amount of time you've got NOTHING. You don't ELIMINATE ever. This is just a matter of basic procedure. You have "Prime suspects" and then you have "suspects" and so on, but no one is EVER eliminated. And as you pointed out you always ask "what if?". For instance, let's test the theory of that 10pm call, instead of "hanging your hat" on it, and proliferating the "Big Splat" theory.

I don't like this at all.


OD

 

[leftcoast]

Yup. Especially when after a certain amount of time you've got NOTHING. You don't ELIMINATE ever. This is just a matter of basic procedure. You have "Prime suspects" and then you have "suspects" and so on, but no one is EVER eliminated. And as you pointed out you always ask "what if?". For instance, let's test the theory of that 10pm call, instead of "hanging your hat" on it, and proliferating the "Big Splat" theory.

I don't like this at all.


OD

Neither do I.

Especially the judge who gives an "armed robber" probation.

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[Old Dominion]

Neither do I.

Especially the judge who gives an "armed robber" probation.

left

Be that as it may, there was also an FBI agent who never even looked into this. The same agent (if I'm not mistaken) told you it "was up to the ground crew" to determine where Teddy was living at the time. As if to say..."not my job". This is NOT incompetence.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

Be that as it may, there was also an FBI agent who never even looked into this. The same agent (if I'm not mistaken) told you it "was up to the ground crew" to determine where Teddy was living at the time. As if to say..."not my job". This is NOT incompetence.

OD

There have been some awful "odd" coincidences in this case.

When I mentioned Ted lived across from the airport, H-bach should have responded, "I know", I checked him out. OR, it doesn't matter, since I know where TEd was the entire time Cooper was on the plane.

I never expected in a million years that I would be telling an FBI agent where a prime suspect was living, was doing for work, or his dramatic change in "lifestyle" after the heist.

It is usually the other way around.

LIke I said, this is either the "king" of incompetence, or something far more sinister.

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[Old Dominion]

There have been some awful "odd" coincidences in this case.

When I mentioned Ted lived across from the airport, H-bach should have responded, "I know", I checked him out. OR, it doesn't matter, since I know where TEd was the entire time Cooper was on the plane.

I never expected in a million years that I would be telling an FBI agent where a prime suspect was living, was doing for work, or his dramatic change in "lifestyle" after the heist.

It is usually the other way around.

LIke I said, this is either the "king" of incompetence, or something far more sinister.

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I don't know. I just saw a LOT more than a RED-faced man when KOIN confronted him with the 12" monitor of Teddy-boy. I'm comfortable with the fact that we don't see this the same way, but...there is another problem.

OD

 

[leftcoast]

I don't know. I just saw a LOT more than a RED-faced man when KOIN confronted him with the 12" monitor of Teddy-boy. I'm comfortable with the fact that we don't see this the same way, but...there is another problem.

OD

the "red" faced man probably didn't know what video KOIN was going to show him, or did he?

Are you suggesting, it is the "old s***, they are gaining strength with the TEd story"

Or, oops, what shall I say?

Or, will anyone put this together?

What is the other problem that you mentioned?

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