WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[DexterMorgan]

They should see if any visitor on tape had her backpack. Because that is one thing they may have carried back. Idk

 

[April022]

I don’t want to steer the conversation in a crazy direction, but something came up in the FB group the other day that was deleted immediately. It was around the day they called off the search, I can’t remember if it was day of or not. Two different people posted that they heard/read the police were looking into a suspicious post on her social media (never mentioned which platform). Those posts were deleted within an hour and no mention of it since. I have searched FB/Google/IG/etc. and haven’t found any other mention of it. Did anyone else see these posts? I’m curious if it was a message she received or a log in or what.

 

[ElementalLaura]

Many people (including me!) find solace in nature and peace in reconnecting with the natural world away from workaday concerns. And many of us choose to live in places where we can have those experiences on a regular basis. Generally speaking, the greatest threats we face are ourselves (bad decision making) and others who wish to do us harm (fewer of those types in wilderness areas than in populated areas, as there are fewer people, period).

A common perspective of outdoors people is that they’re more comfortable with the risks they face in wilderness areas than they are with the risks they perceive if they were to give up hiking - backpacking - camping: increased stress and the corresponding health consequences. Being prepared can mitigate the wilderness risks. It might help communication if you were to talk with your son about making sure someone knows where he’s hiking and when he’s due back, and being prepared to survive if the unexpected happens.

I think Samantha decided to explore off-trail and suffered a fall and injuries. I sure hope she’s found soon.

Michellesv44 in reading the comment you posted where Sam says “then I fall”....I want to mention something. My nephew is an avid hiker. He spends hours hiking on the weekends. Generally lesser known hiking trails. I had a discussion with him regarding “never hike alone”. I explained my reasoning, including cases I follow here on Websleuths. His answer was very similar. He feels like when it’s his “time to go” - if that happens while hiking - then it’s meant to be. I tried talking about the dangers etc. He basically brushed off my concerns. Disheartening.

You would be shocked how many people are out there hiking for sometimes thousands of miles alone, men, women, even elderly people. Try watching some of the hiker vlogs on Youtube. It's like they are addicted to it. Some of them have sold everything they own, quit their jobs and just hike constantly.

 

[kgreg2529]

I don’t want to steer the conversation in a crazy direction, but something came up in the FB group the other day that was deleted immediately. It was around the day they called off the search, I can’t remember if it was day of or not. Two different people posted that they heard/read the police were looking into a suspicious post on her social media (never mentioned which platform). Those posts were deleted within an hour and no mention of it since. I have searched FB/Google/IG/etc. and haven’t found any other mention of it. Did anyone else see these posts? I’m curious if it was a message she received or a log in or what.

I haven’t but would be interested to see what they were about!

 

[Timekeeper65]

ElementalLaura LOVE your comment. Agree with all you have stated.

 

[mrsNKY]

I have been following since the beginning, not really commenting. I'm thinking an accident. I feel the guy initially came forward and was good about answering questions. I did notice people started picking him apart. I wouldn't grant permission to have my info released either. You have family, (which I do understand) that I know nothing about possibly tripping me up or locking me into statements where, if she is found and harmed deliberately I could be in for a mountain of trouble. Especially if I were innocent. Friends and family mean well, but when tempers are heightened this could become a problem. Vigilante justice still exists. Again, not saying this would be the case but you never know and obviously he doesn't know this family or their friends.

If someone else has footage, they may be less apt to help, seeing how people picked apart this man. Either correctly or not. I don't believe anyone harmed her, I think simple accident. Sometimes people who do different things can get over-confident in their abilities. Also, for the family I think that at some point you really need to listen to the pro's and get some alternate ideas, even though it feels like you are giving up. You will not be, its taking care of her.

 

[April022]

I have been following since the beginning, not really commenting. I'm thinking an accident. I feel the guy initially came forward and was good about answering questions. I did notice people started picking him apart. I wouldn't grant permission to have my info released either. You have family, (which I do understand) that I know nothing about possibly tripping me up or locking me into statements where, if she is found and harmed deliberately I could be in for a mountain of trouble. Especially if I were innocent. Friends and family mean well, but when tempers are heightened this could become a problem. Vigilante justice still exists. Again, not saying this would be the case but you never know and obviously he doesn't know this family or their friends.

If someone else has footage, they may be less apt to help, seeing how people picked apart this man. Either correctly or not. I don't believe anyone harmed her, I think simple accident. Sometimes people who do different things can get over-confident in their abilities. Also, for the family I think that at some point you really need to listen to the pro's and get some alternate ideas, even though it feels like you are giving up. You will not be, its taking care of her.

The second guy who posted the video he had unintentionally captured her in ended up taking his posts down because he was being harassed.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I have been following since the beginning, not really commenting. I'm thinking an accident. I feel the guy initially came forward and was good about answering questions. I did notice people started picking him apart. I wouldn't grant permission to have my info released either. You have family, (which I do understand) that I know nothing about possibly tripping me up or locking me into statements where, if she is found and harmed deliberately I could be in for a mountain of trouble. Especially if I were innocent. Friends and family mean well, but when tempers are heightened this could become a problem. Vigilante justice still exists. Again, not saying this would be the case but you never know and obviously he doesn't know this family or their friends.

If someone else has footage, they may be less apt to help, seeing how people picked apart this man. Either correctly or not. I don't believe anyone harmed her, I think simple accident. Sometimes people who do different things can get over-confident in their abilities. Also, for the family I think that at some point you really need to listen to the pro's and get some alternate ideas, even though it feels like you are giving up. You will not be, its taking care of her.

The second guy who posted the video he had unintentionally captured her in ended up taking his posts down because he was being harassed.

This is the problem with rescue efforts that use social media to communicate. I know (or, rather, hope) that the people in that group are just trying to help, but with the sheer volume of them, they can really cause a lot of problems for actual witnesses. The hiking communities tend to be very tight knit, and if such behavior were to get around, I'm sure it wouldn't be looked on favorably. I know early on that they were banned from posting about Samantha in several Facebook hiking groups because they basically spammed their wall with nothing but Samantha, so their moderators told the family that they would allow one post a day only, and only from one of them. There's been no update since on whether they are still posting in those groups. Furthermore, while the family has a large social media following, I'm not sure if they've given enough weight to what effect social media is having. I appreciate the updates and think it's amazing that they are now crowd sourcing the drone footage (Now You Can Help Search For Missing Seattle Hiker Samantha Sayers | HuffPost). However, they seem to ignore the fact that their members routinely harass people who are asking valid questions and encourage them to actively harass other organizations and Facebook pages. While this has helped them (ex: the 3-week search was largely due to the massive amount of social media attention), I don't think they have thought of, or maybe even care about, the people caught in the cross-fire, like the man who just happened to film her.

This is why I feel torn about them releasing the names to the family. Part of me sincerely hopes that the police do not release the information about the eyewitnesses to the family. The mother was even talking about getting a copy of the trail sign-in book. I can only imagine what would happen if they posted a copy of that or the witnesses' names on that Facebook page, and all of it only because someone happened to talk to Sam while eating a sandwich, dared to take a video of her, or even was just on the mountain that day. What do they think will happen if she posts the guest lists, asks for help tracking people down, and it's revealed that a hiker or two has a history of violence or other criminal background? I have little doubt that they would be doxxed and harassed.

While part of me hopes that the mother wouldn't do that if she did get the records, I really don't know what she would do, as she is desperate to find her daughter. She's not likely thinking very rationally at the moment, and could drastically affect someone else's life because of it.

At the same time, I think that this would be part of the public record, and if they turned it over directly to a private investigator, I don't think I would have such a problem with it. It's the social media aspect to this, the mob mentality, and the ends-justify-the-means mentality that makes me incredibly nervous.

 

[i'm someone]

And let's not forget the trolls, who will harass anyone and anything they can. Some people just immediately jump to "crazy" the second they see a story. The people who go and harass witnesses or go theorizing about people who may have had nothing to do with it are not really helping and they aren't trying to, IMO. It's a public world, and while it really makes getting the word out easy, it also makes it easy for the crazier elements to do their thing. I think Sam's poor family were not aware of troll behavior and it's probably a shock. This could be why they became so defensive.

 

[Phantasma2624]

And let's not forget the trolls, who will harass anyone and anything they can. Some people just immediately jump to "crazy" the second they see a story. The people who go and harass witnesses or go theorizing about people who may have had nothing to do with it are not really helping and they aren't trying to, IMO. It's a public world, and while it really makes getting the word out easy, it also makes it easy for the crazier elements to do their thing. I think Sam's poor family were not aware of troll behavior and it's probably a shock. This could be why they became so defensive.

Yes, there are a fair amount of people who are just plain trolls. Social media for those that are not familiar can be shocking, and I don't blame Samantha's mother for being on the defensive. I think that they need to take some of the money that they have raised and use it to hire an experienced moderator or two (or seven) to help control the page. Not only to remove the trolls, but to stop all these "praying", "love and light", and "today" comments that belong on the pinned post for people to leave their well-wishes. However well-intentioned, such posts are functionally useless in terms of finding Samantha, and they make it all but impossible to follow the case effectively for those that are trying. Samantha's mother expressed frustration at having to answer the same questions again and again, but I can't blame those asking, because it's impossible to find anything on that page. This would make the family's life easier, and hopefully would control the people there more. They may also want to get a PR person to help them with their updates and press releases.

 

[kgreg2529]

Yes, there are a fair amount of people who are just plain trolls. Social media for those that are not familiar can be shocking, and I don't blame Samantha's mother for being on the defensive. I think that they need to take some of the money that they have raised and use it to hire an experienced moderator or two (or seven) to help control the page. Not only to remove the trolls, but to stop all these "praying", "love and light", and "today" comments that belong on the pinned post for people to leave their well-wishes. However well-intentioned, such posts are functionally useless in terms of finding Samantha, and they make it all but impossible to follow the case effectively for those that are trying. Samantha's mother expressed frustration at having to answer the same questions again and again, but I can't blame those asking, because it's impossible to find anything on that page. This would make the family's life easier, and hopefully would control the people there more. They may also want to get a PR person to help them with their updates and press releases.

Right! I check for updates on here because I can’t find anything on there.

 

[thesaint]

Surprised there haven't been more videos/pics of Samantha on the summit of Vesper mountain. That's usually when people break out the cameras. Makes ya wonder if she actually summited. The video we have shows her headed toward the summit. And the unidentified witness claims to have seen her either on the summit or post-summit on her way down, possibly descending the opposite way she came up.

 

[ChelaKitty]

...It's the social media aspect to this, the mob mentality, and the ends-justify-the-means mentality that makes me incredibly nervous.

I agree, the frenzy around this is both fascinating and terrifying. It’s got a life of its own. I imagine no small amount of our community's resources are going toward some sort of monitoring of the situation. If she fell into a crevasse she may never, or not for a very long time, be found.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

Vesper Peak is a heavily populated area. Experienced hikers have said that it would be highly unlikely for someone to try and kidnap someone from such a populated trail. Furthermore, if she were kidnapped in the parking lot area, she would have been surrounded by other cars and more people. There have been several incidents, but on trails that are far less populated.

Hi everyone, I'm a first time poster and following this story.

Vesper Peak is not heavily populated because it's a very tough trail. Don't like to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I knew someone years ago who was abducted at knife-point off a trail that was extremely accessible compared to Vesper and regularly used - not in the wilderness - and into a vehicle the kidnapper then drove to more remote area where she was raped. He later did something similar to another woman who he both raped and murdered. So someone could do this, in my opinion, at Vesper, if they were close enough to the parking area. Or someone could abduct and harm someone at the higher altitudes, leaving them there.

But I agree it's more likely she lost the trail or was injured in a fall (if not killed). With time, unfortunately, eating away at the likelihood of her survival.

Also, there's an unidentified person or persons in the discussed video of Sayers who might be missing with her - or something might have happened to her while with them. I find it disconcerting if the Sheriff's office didn't follow up on this. On social media, at least one poster has pointed out that not all missing persons are reported, so she could be missing with another hiker with no official report of that other hiker being gone. Then there's the possibility of another hiker being with her in an accident, and fleeing the scene of the accident without reporting it.

I think the family investigation looks complicated by their own intense emotional involvement. But the fact her mother most certainly wants to find her is overall an ace in Sayer's favor.

I hope they follow up on finding the people in this video. I hope the Sheriff's office does too.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

Regarding the trail registry .. I agree it's a public record. You can't take the record home, but you can take photos of that record and probably even post the photos online as the trail registry is "in the public domain."

I can understand why some hikers might be uncomfortable with the publicity, especially given the online bullying, but I think the public interest outweighs privacy rights, here. If you hike on a public trail, you accept a certain amount of responsibility for other hikers. If something happened to you, you'd hope others would come forward with any information they had, so it works both ways.

Someone on social media shared a post by a Vesper Peak hiker a few days before Sayers was there; she wrote that the registry was missing. So, either they replaced it pretty quickly, or they were talking about different registries (since there's one for the trail and one for the summit), or they mistakenly believe that the Sheriff's office has it ..?

 

[moonriverfarm]

Wait - there is another or other hikers missing who were seen on the mountain with Sam>???

 

[Suglo]

Sam’s mother has put out a call for SAR air scent dogs. Sounds like they need to be able to self-deploy which can be an issue. Can anyone here explain why the dogs and handlers can’t just self-deploy in a private search such as this one?

 

[Phantasma2624]

Regarding the trail registry .. I agree it's a public record. You can't take the record home, but you can take photos of that record and probably even post the photos online as the trail registry is "in the public domain."

I can understand why some hikers might be uncomfortable with the publicity, especially given the online bullying, but I think the public interest outweighs privacy rights, here. If you hike on a public trail, you accept a certain amount of responsibility for other hikers. If something happened to you, you'd hope others would come forward with any information they had, so it works both ways.

Someone on social media shared a post by a Vesper Peak hiker a few days before Sayers was there; she wrote that the registry was missing. So, either they replaced it pretty quickly, or they were talking about different registries (since there's one for the trail and one for the summit), or they mistakenly believe that the Sheriff's office has it ..?

I think it’s one thing to sign the registry and be questioned by law enforcement, which I’m sure they have done. It’s another to be hounded by 20,000 people on social media who think that they’re doing the right thing because it will “find Sam”. I hope if the family gets it that they keep it secret and turn it over to a private investigator who can do things appropriately.

Also, I don’t really agree with the idea that simply being on the mountain means that you assume responsibility for other hikers. That may be the nice thing to do, but it’s not required.

Finally, I’m sure it is missing because the police likely have it. That would be one of the first things they would check, I would assume.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Sam’s mother has put out a call for SAR air scent dogs. Sounds like they need to be able to self-deploy which can be an issue. Can anyone here explain why the dogs and handlers can’t just self-deploy in a private search such as this one?

I don’t know if it’s an issue of can’t or won’t. Many organizations won’t self-deploy because they have relationships with the police departments. From what I understand, it’s considered rude and unprofessional to not get the police’s permission. Furthermore, some won’t self-deploy because working for families alone can be a hairy business. That is why large organizations like NecroSearch require that the police seek them out and won’t work for families at all.

I would also assume there are liability issues. If the family sends out people who law enforcement haven’t found are certified for the terrain etc, they could have yet another rescue on their hands.

 

[Suglo]

I don’t know if it’s an issue of can’t or won’t. Many organizations won’t self-deploy because they have relationships with the police departments. From what I understand, it’s considered rude and unprofessional to not get the police’s permission. Furthermore, some won’t self-deploy because working for families alone can be a hairy business. That is why large organizations like NecroSearch require that the police seek them out and won’t work for families at all.

I would also assume there are liability issues. If the family sends out people who law enforcement haven’t found are certified for the terrain etc, they could have yet another rescue on their hands.

Thank you! Makes a lot of sense.