WA WA - Seattle, WhtFem 30-50, 159UFWA, UP12916, alias 'Mary Anderson', copper IUD, breast surgery scars, Oct'96

[Susikatze]

Her brows were "over plucked" as was a style for far too long in my opinion LoL Her eyes sunk in due to the cyanide and some of the things she was taking (Metamucil and drinking Crystal Light). I think she looked rather dehydrated. No listing of time of death, although it appears she was probably there for awhile in the room before they accessed the room so her skin would have started to settle back from her face. Her coloring was dark also due to the cyanide poisoning.

True but even if you take all that into account, the recent sketch portrays her nose and complexion wrong.
Her facial features are similar to most of the middle age Persian/exile Iranian ladies I got to know in my life. Her face was not as full as the recon and her nose was a bit larger. Id say she was around 45, give or take 5 years.
Probably she was depressed and had no close family in the US. Probably divorced or separated from husband or partner. They really should look into exile Iranian communities. She probably worked somewhere and had friends and acquaintances. Many exile Iranians worked (and stillare working) in the medical field. She may have come to the US in the 1970s/early 1980s with a husband and worked in his office as doctor or nurse or receptionist. Which would explain why noone missed her. Can be alienated from husband or widowed with no children.

jmoo

 

[Sweetluv]

She wore a dental plate and had a copper IUD. I would think one, if not both, would have a serial number of some sort (?)

 

[Melt71]

She wore a dental plate and had a copper IUD. I would think one, if not both, would have a serial number of some sort (?)

Covered multiple times in earlier posts. Just a couple of examples of answers below.

IUD:

The medical examiner did try to track down the IUD by serial number. However due to age of the device, most of the numbers were worn off, and he was unsuccessful searching for the partial number.

Dental plate (addressing a DoeNet entry that said she had the plate in her mouth when found)

Nope. Medical examiner states that she removed it and it wasn’t with her.

 

[Aurora90]

I found this podcast, I’m not sure if it’s the one you’re looking for though.
Mary Anderson Podcast

Quoting this podcast:

Dr. Taylor:
So she had ingested cyanide, which is not a readily available substance. My understanding, from doing some research on cyanide, is that it is technically a controlled substance. And it's used certainly in mining and I would guess in jewelry as well. I mean, obviously cyanide is lethal. She had to have access. So that added to the mystery.

Hmm sounds like it was Potassium Cyanide, same thing used in the Tylenol murders.

Potassium Cyanide - Wikipedia:

Most KCN is used in gold mining, organic synthesis, and electroplating. Smaller applications include jewelleryfor chemical gilding and buffing.

Potassium cyanide is highly toxic, and a dose of 200 to 300 milligrams will kill nearly any human.

 

[Aurora90]

Interesting that it isn’t Roxanna she worked at a pipeline at one point. Maybe someone related to her family?

 

[Aurora90]

Watching the Netflix documentary on the Tylenol Murders. A detective states that one could by cyanide at a hardware store at that time. It was easily accessible in 1982. It certainly isn’t the case now. Was it the case in 1996?

Does anyone know when that changed?

 

[GloSeattle]

She wore a dental plate and had a copper IUD. I would think one, if not both, would have a serial number of some sort (?)

Her dental plate was never found and the serial number on the IUD was degraded and they were unable to trace it. (I posted the two news articles I had to copy from BITD when they were written. They've since had their links deleted, and we no longer have "The Way Back" archives as it was done away with. Luckily, I had saved a copy of it, but I was "unable to post it here" so I hand typed it a few months back. Feel free to peruse. The original articles have the original medical examiner who retired and then died, pre-Kathy Taylor, as well as the founder of DOE, Todd Matthews article when he was a journalist who has also since died. For me, they were invaluable articles in understanding the complexities and mystery that plagues this case to this day

 

[GloSeattle]

Watching the Netflix documentary on the Tylenol Murders. A detective states that one could by cyanide at a hardware store at that time. It was easily accessible in 1982. It certainly isn’t the case now. Was it the case in 1996?

Does anyone know when that changed?

The Seattle Times has an article from 1991 addressing this. I'm hesitant to post the link here. Do a google search on "when did cyanide become hard to obtain in the USA." Cyanide was still accessible here in the 90's for specialized uses and industries. The assumption has been that this DOE had access in an industry due to her meticulous and very successful act of thwarting every single attempt to ID her.

 

[iamshadow21]

The Seattle Times has an article from 1991 addressing this. I'm hesitant to post the link here. Do a google search on "when did cyanide become hard to obtain in the USA." Cyanide was still accessible here in the 90's for specialized uses and industries. The assumption has been that this DOE had access in an industry due to her meticulous and very successful act of thwarting every single attempt to ID her.

Or she had the cyanide from a purchase before the increased regulation. It's not like milk, it doesn't go off. It could have sat in someone's shed or garage for decades before she used it.

MOO

 

[GloSeattle]

True but even if you take all that into account, the recent sketch portrays her nose and complexion wrong.
Her facial features are similar to most of the middle age Persian/exile Iranian ladies I got to know in my life. Her face was not as full as the recon and her nose was a bit larger. Id say she was around 45, give or take 5 years.
Probably she was depressed and had no close family in the US. Probably divorced or separated from husband or partner. They really should look into exile Iranian communities. She probably worked somewhere and had friends and acquaintances. Many exile Iranians worked (and stillare working) in the medical field. She may have come to the US in the 1970s/early 1980s with a husband and worked in his office as doctor or nurse or receptionist. Which would explain why noone missed her. Can be alienated from husband or widowed with no children.

jmoo

She never had children, per the ME exam, and depression is a good guess as most suicides are depression related as a rule. (I mean I wouldn't want to die unless I was depressed and felt there was no reason to go on.) Given also that she made it clear there are no relatives, estrangement could very well be a reason why she said this, as well as many other possibilities. The desk clerk did not hear an accent from her nor did the cab driver as has been noted so she's not a recent immigrant. Most people retain their accents for many years after coming here. My grandmother retained her accent until the day she died and she lived here for over 80 years! Cyanide will give a rose color to the complexion. Initially they called this DOE the tan lady because of her coloring. With decomposition setting in on her all of her fatty tissue on her face, nose, cheeks, as falling down due to gravity. Forensic artists, dealing with this, have had to reconstruct the facial features based on that factor and their experience in the field dealing with cadavers. I think her appearance resembles the sketch but probably some details might be off. We didn't have a color photo of her so it's hard for me to judge, but I know this artist did see the photo's in the ME's office before autopsy and had a better grasp of how she looked after all the makeup was off.

 

[GloSeattle]

Or she had the cyanide from a purchase before the increased regulation. It's not like milk, it doesn't go off. It could have sat in someone's shed or garage for decades before she used it.

MOO

Possibilities are infinite when dealing with the unknown, agreed. However, all poisons, including cyanide can have a shelf life (expiration date) dependent on how they are stored. So, like milk, it can go bad so to speak, or be less effective and not kill you.

 

[Susikatze]

She never had children, per the ME exam, and depression is a good guess as most suicides are depression related as a rule. (I mean I wouldn't want to die unless I was depressed and felt there was no reason to go on.) Given also that she made it clear there are no relatives, estrangement could very well be a reason why she said this, as well as many other possibilities. The desk clerk did not hear an accent from her nor did the cab driver as has been noted so she's not a recent immigrant. Most people retain their accents for many years after coming here. My grandmother retained her accent until the day she died and she lived here for over 80 years! Cyanide will give a rose color to the complexion. Initially they called this DOE the tan lady because of her coloring. With decomposition setting in on her all of her fatty tissue on her face, nose, cheeks, as falling down due to gravity. Forensic artists, dealing with this, have had to reconstruct the facial features based on that factor and their experience in the field dealing with cadavers. I think her appearance resembles the sketch but probably some details might be off. We didn't have a color photo of her so it's hard for me to judge, but I know this artist did see the photo's in the ME's office before autopsy and had a better grasp of how she looked after all the makeup was off.

I think it depends on the type of accent, is also fairly individual and how deep the conversation was. The Iranians I know, first generation immigrants who had stayed 15-30 years had very slight accents that may not have been noticeable in a short conversation. In English and also in my native language. Maybe Farsi speakers tend to have an easier time adapting to other indo european language families? Also it is very individual, some lose their accent within few years, regardless of their mother tongue and others will always keep it. My English has an accent but it is not a German accent as you may expect but I was told it was something hard to put the finger on - some say it is French, some say it is British. So generally I do not put too much weight on whether there was a noticeable accent or not

 

[Susikatze]

Her copper UID apparently had been in place for a longer time frame - they can stay in place for decades safely. Many women keep theirs in place even after a relationship ends because theyre not noticeable and not dangerous if placed correctly (yes there are freak accidents and them traveling in the body but that is the exception).

 

[GloSeattle]

I think it depends on the type of accent, is also fairly individual and how deep the conversation was. The Iranians I know, first generation immigrants who had stayed 15-30 years had very slight accents that may not have been noticeable in a short conversation. In English and also in my native language. Maybe Farsi speakers tend to have an easier time adapting to other indo european language families? Also it is very individual, some lose their accent within few years, regardless of their mother tongue and others will always keep it. My English has an accent but it is not a German accent as you may expect but I was told it was something hard to put the finger on - some say it is French, some say it is British. So generally I do not put too much weight on whether there was a noticeable accent or not

Quite true, but... as a former front desk clerk at 4 major hotel chains during my college years, I can attest that we are pretty good at detecting not only accents but where they are from. Now, I was not all desk clerks and my coworkers were not all desk clerks, and there is always an exception to this rule. However, given the testimony on interviews given to King County detectives by the desk clerk and the cabbie I'm personally very confident that the information we have on that investigation is complete and accurate.
What I truly wish with this case is that they would have taken a sample of her bones whether rib or a tooth from her bottom jaw (she only had false teeth on the top) so we could determine where she was born. Bone will show what minerals, nutrients, and composition of the water she drank which would help us in determining who she is. Maybe they did and didn't release the information. I didn't have an opportunity to ask Kathy this before she passed away. I talked to another ME who does cold cases in the US and never thought to ask her. However, she talked to Kathy also and couldn't give me a lot of information. Only a wish here, but I wish they would have given the public more information on her. It's all rather strange if you don't know who someone is and they've been deceased for almost 30 years and you want to truly ID them that you wouldn't release all the information/reports to the public. I live in Seattle and I know it hasn't been. Kathy is dead, the original ME examiner is also dead, we are pretty much hogtied to solve this case. Funds were paid to Othram and they've engaged DNA Solves to assist, we have the DOE network and NAMUS listing her. I don't think truly, unless more information is released or Othram/DNA Solves gets some new information or KCME releases more information, that we will ever solve her identity. It's sad, tragic, and frustrating. I wish we all could do more to solve this but we can't at this stage. I wait for the powers that be to release more information and/or details on her family tree so we can all move forward with this and hopefully ID her.

 

[GloSeattle]

Quoting this podcast:



Hmm sounds like it was Potassium Cyanide, same thing used in the Tylenol murders.

Potassium Cyanide - Wikipedia:

This intrigued me also. I read back in the early 90's I believe (I posted here back a ways) about a jeweler who worked out of his home, who mishandled cyanide and killed himself accidentally. His residence was an apartment complex that had to be evacuated as there were containers that were open/spilled and there was an environmental hazard as a result. It was in LA or in the LA area as I recall. I wondered if she was one of the residents there and might have made off with the cyanide? I know the KC examiner told Todd Matthews that they had checked on who obtained the cyanide as they had to register to get it (jewelers included) to see if a woman showed up in the purchases and they came up with nothing. However, if this jeweler obtained it, the purchase would be under him and not her at all. <sigh> I tried to find the residents there at the apartment and there was a woman I found that had been reported to be a resident. I wrote to the PD there but got no response.

 

[summergirl1]

Quite true, but... as a former front desk clerk at 4 major hotel chains during my college years, I can attest that we are pretty good at detecting not only accents but where they are from. Now, I was not all desk clerks and my coworkers were not all desk clerks, and there is always an exception to this rule. However, given the testimony on interviews given to King County detectives by the desk clerk and the cabbie I'm personally very confident that the information we have on that investigation is complete and accurate.
What I truly wish with this case is that they would have taken a sample of her bones whether rib or a tooth from her bottom jaw (she only had false teeth on the top) so we could determine where she was born. Bone will show what minerals, nutrients, and composition of the water she drank which would help us in determining who she is. Maybe they did and didn't release the information. I didn't have an opportunity to ask Kathy this before she passed away. I talked to another ME who does cold cases in the US and never thought to ask her. However, she talked to Kathy also and couldn't give me a lot of information. Only a wish here, but I wish they would have given the public more information on her. It's all rather strange if you don't know who someone is and they've been deceased for almost 30 years and you want to truly ID them that you wouldn't release all the information/reports to the public. I live in Seattle and I know it hasn't been. Kathy is dead, the original ME examiner is also dead, we are pretty much hogtied to solve this case. Funds were paid to Othram and they've engaged DNA Solves to assist, we have the DOE network and NAMUS listing her. I don't think truly, unless more information is released or Othram/DNA Solves gets some new information or KCME releases more information, that we will ever solve her identity. It's sad, tragic, and frustrating. I wish we all could do more to solve this but we can't at this stage. I wait for the powers that be to release more information and/or details on her family tree so we can all move forward with this and hopefully ID her.

That kind of testing is frequently unreliable (isotope testing, I think it's called). It is interesting, but not 100%, nor even close at times. There have been solved cold cases where it's been proven wrong. That's not to say to it wouldn't be interesting and perhaps relevant in Mary's case.

 

[GloSeattle]

That kind of testing is frequently unreliable (isotope testing, I think it's called). It is interesting, but not 100%, nor even close at times. There have been solved cold cases where it's been proven wrong. That's not to say to it wouldn't be interesting and perhaps relevant in Mary's case.

Interesting... I was going to attend UCLA Davis to study forensic anthropology in my criminal justice degree and it's my understanding this testing is still done and relied upon. I just read an article, in fact, from the National Museum of Natural History on how it's still used to test skeletal remains. In fact, it stated that you could follow the complete history from birth to death from the bones. What I was referencing in general above was a test called strontium isotope testing which can determine where a person grew up in broad terms from tooth enamel. May I ask where you read this? I'd be interested to research it myself. (I had a baby and couldn't relocate at the time to Davis, so my studies remained in Oregon and just in CJ). Many thanks if you can steer me in the right direction. (I might add all testing is only as accurate as the test, the controls, the sample, and the interpretation of data. Tests are gauges only and none even in the living are 100% accurate. I always thought that's why they call it practicing medicine! LOL)

 

[summergirl1]

It is still done and relied upon sometimes, that's true, as far as I know, or past testing is relied on. But it's just general knowledge if you've spent time reading about solved cold cases in recent years that it can be unreliable and sometimes far off the mark. I've read about some, perhaps many, cases on this board that mention (or where you can draw the obvious conclusion that) the isotope testing that was done was off. I can't even recall which cases because I have followed pretty much every solved Doe case in recent years. That kind of testing is more of a guide than anything now, it seems, although sometimes it is correct. DNA, finger prints, and dental records are always correct in contrast, although sometimes with dental records you can interpret those in different ways, too, depending on how complete they are. Maybe someone else can give you better info about specific cases where the isotope testing was off. Sometimes the isotope testing was off about where a person had lived more recently than where they had been born, like when looking at Doe cases for example, was this Doe from around the area where they were found?

 

[iamshadow21]

I believe isotope testing is more useful in historical and ancient remains, from the times when most people ate food grown and drank water sourced from the place they lived.

In today's global market, your food and drink could be from anywhere. Just ate noodles from Indonesia. Never been anywhere near Indonesia in my life. Drinking mineral water with it. Where did that water come from? Who knows, could be anywhere in the country. Will probably have some chocolate before bed. Chocolate doesn't grow in my country at all. Neither does the coffee I had for breakfast. See the problem?

MOO

 

[GloSeattle]

It is still done and relied upon sometimes, that's true, as far as I know, or past testing is relied on. But it's just general knowledge if you've spent time reading about solved cold cases in recent years that it can be unreliable and sometimes far off the mark. I've read about some, perhaps many, cases on this board that mention (or where you can draw the obvious conclusion that) the isotope testing that was done was off. I can't even recall which cases because I have followed pretty much every solved Doe case in recent years. That kind of testing is more of a guide than anything now, it seems, although sometimes it is correct. DNA, finger prints, and dental records are always correct in contrast, although sometimes with dental records you can interpret those in different ways, too, depending on how complete they are. Maybe someone else can give you better info about specific cases where the isotope testing was off. Sometimes the isotope testing was off about where a person had lived more recently than where they had been born, like when looking at Doe cases for example, was this Doe from around the area where they were found?

So in the unreliability issue... are you speaking of isotope analysis or strontium isotope testing? Isotope analysis is not as conclusive as strontium isotope testing is a bit more definitive than isotope analysis which is very broad. I am referring to cold case unidentified people this has been used on, btw. After almost 30 years, if they have such samples, anything is better than what we've been doing to find out who she is, IMO. (I don't want to get too technical on all of these tests as in order to do so I'd have to list research from experts and their findings and we're not allowed to post links unless preapproved by websleuths as being an accepted site to post. I want to be very respectful and not to break the terms of use here. I've been on this site for over 12 years now.) <sigh> So, we'll agree to disagree? I'm frantic to find out who she is as the longer this goes on the farther away we will be. Eventually, many of us, like me will be long gone - passed away in our own graves but we all have names. This woman doesn't.