WA WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #3

[Miss Optimism]

I think (maybe I am mistaken) that you are making a point, Calliope. To my mind, it doesn't matter if she actually drank on that trip. The fact that he took her on a trip where he would be drinking *knowing* she is in recovery (& has a history of a problem w/ more than 1 say in rehab) say a lot. Especially since he, since this tragedy, has had to inform the public of her *relapse*. No, there is no proof she was drinking then--despite her proximity to alcohol. Nor is there proof that night that she drank--despite her proximity to alcohol. But it would be more likely than not IMO.

Are you suggesting that the fiancee had something to do with her disappearance and the death of her son?

 

[floridaheather]

RS did not take SS on a wine tasting vacation. What we have is his blog saying they went on a vacation, and that one of many stops was at a vineyard one day, where RS sampled the wine.

There is nothing saying that SS had any wine, let alone that RS in any way encouraged or condoned it.

There are no references in the blog to SS consuming alcohol.

There is one picture in the blog from another stop on the same vacation, in which SS has a mug of beer on the table in front of her.

This is how rumors grow legs. That one mug of beer on the table has grown into a sadistic wine tasting vacation.

I think that most people would infer from the description of the trip, the date of the trip, and RS's own announcement that she had *relapsed* w/ alcohol around the time of the trip that even if she wasn't drinking during that trip, it is highly likely that it was a trigger. Alcoholics in recovery--that go to rehab--are taught to stay away from people (ex. who drink), places (ex. a winery), & things (ex. alcoholic situations, people, restaurants) that remind you of drinking. I think people are aware you can't draw a straight line there, but then again, you can't say for sure she was drinking that night. IMO though it is more probable than not, and if all we had to work w/ here were *facts* there wouldn't be much abt this case that you could say for sure.

My point is, I don't think these folks are misconstruing information, but rather they are interpreting the information they DO have. Pls don't misunderstand my tone, I promise you I am not trying to be argumentative, just my thoughts on what you said. =)

 

[floridaheather]

I just watched another viddie where the ex JS seems to have to suppress laughter. What on earth is THAT about? This is the ex she recently resumed contact with. What about C the father of Az. Were they ever married and did she not maintain contact with him?

As for the ME ruling it's like this to me hypothetically: If a person went out to swim alone as far as anyone knows and someone unknown swims along and drowns them, then swims away again. How would the ME be able to determine if the drowning were accidental or forced? How would they be able to determine in this case if the circumstance was accidental or possibly forced? Is there a physiological difference apparant to the body to determine? How would he know yet if the person was drugged and left to drown? Just thinking out loud, but if you know BeanE, I am very curious.

It looks like laughter somewhat, but his eyes quickly well up w/ tears and he covers his mouth. It is not uncommon for men to be awkward expressing grief b/c they are so often taught to suppress emotions growing up.

 

[floridaheather]

RS identified the smaller shoe as hers. The Larger one is a mans shoe and has not been identified.

i didn't know this! wow. too bad the LE don't have grounds to try to match it to anyone either in the area or anyone she knew... hmm.
::yow::

 

[floridaheather]

Are you suggesting that the fiancee had something to do with her disappearance and the death of her son?

no, but i think he knows more than he is telling us. and i think it has to do w/ guilt. we discussed earlier--the rush into marriage w/ the "cancer" diagnosis, and his inconsistencies in the story, and him needing the address to Castle Rock as he was leaving, and she was meeting w/ her ex husb that she had been in touch w/ and there is some evidence that things were not as hunky dory as he suggested they were. she is trying to reconnect w/ family members & ex-loved ones in Castle Rock. I just have a lot of questions. I think he is the key to the mystery of why she was that state of mind, as well as maybe why she wasn't on the road. He was trying to "catch w/ her" on the road according to him. I think she may have been avoiding them. And w/ his record of taking trips in the area to explore for photos...there are even a couple where he says something like, I wouldn't be able to go places like this w/out a bike, I think he may know why she chose that beach & how much, exactly she knew about that area. But I think he is worried abt becoming the target of attention or admitting that he was pushing her and she couldn't handle it & feeling guilty in general.

 

[houndstooth]

Gotta go to work - BBL.

If anyone can find an article about whether or not the dogs ever found a scent, and where they lost it, TIA. When this case first broke, RS's daughter tweeted something about "the dogs lost the scent". I believe someone posted about it in the first thread.

See ya'll later!

Post #37 is from NS twitter page now closed. but it is referenced by a poster quoting it that she reports, "the dogs found something!!!"

I'll see if I can locate any other references to it that might elaborate.

ETA: "The dogs are onto something!!!!!!!!!"

 

[LogicalMinds]

I suppose so. I guess I have always heard than a recovering alcoholic should not even have one drink. That the temptation is too much. So I would think to go on a wine tasting trip would be temptation (tasting wine again). But yes, she was the one who needed to control her drinking.

It was not a wine tasting trip..it was a trip, and they stopped at a winery...and he tasted some wine

for all we know the beer mug may have been his

it is a very hard thing to juggle, when you have a family member/loved one in "recovery"....

it is often harder for men, there are lots lots more women in al anon for hubbies/boyfriends...and there are more daughters in al anon I would guess, there for parents/family members....there are more mothers in al anon than dads there for their kids

and I've been there myself ....the one thing I eventually learned was that I had to be there for ME, not for the alcoholic

there are a lot less men who will go through al anon for their partner/etc

and I have attended many "open" meetings of AA, where sometimes women complain that they do NOT get the support (or maybe the enabling) that non alcoholic women lavish upon the male drunks

And there are many ideas and theories also....some abstain totally so as to not "tempt" the recovering alcoholic...however the Big Book tells the alcoholic that eventually they will be able to go where there is alcohol so long as they have a reason to be around it, they will not have to live confined to aa

in fact that is "old school" aa....that eventually an alcoholic should be able to go to a wedding and drink sodas, they should be able to go to family celebrations, their family members should not have to totally abstain...so it is a hard line to walk

and ...here is a sad truth..alcoholics are among the most clever and manipulative people around....a "good" drunk could tell you that their sponsor suggested you go ahead and drink if you choose....a "good drunk" could manipulate a NON aa-educated boyfriend into thinking that it is "ok" if they have a beer or a glass of wine....a drunk will tell you that it was "hard liquor" that was their problem...or pills...or other drugs...or the past "stress"

Al anon gives NON alcoholics the insight and wisdom to see through the various ploys and maneuvers a dry drunk will make on their way to their almost certain "slip"

.see people who love alcoholics become very helpful, very nurturing, caring, our lives become one of concern and tightrope walking, and full of hope we try to believe whatever they tell us.

We want to "fix" them....when we can't even fix ourselves

then we finally come to grips with the 3 C's..and start to work on on our program and develop our own confidence hopefully

I don't know what really happened here...I can only hope that her fiance and his kids get help, therapy....maybe join a family group and try to come to grasps with this tragedy

 

[floridaheather]

That is true, but what if the boy was left sleeping in the van, alone, by someone who knew the tide would eventually come in and he would drown? Still, it seems the boy would have had a good chance of getting out of the car and making it to shore, as long as he woke up before the water was too high.

Indeed. I mean, if I didn't know what really happened to him, I would have imagined that if she had been drinking, he would have been in the better situation--alertness & frame of mind--to save himself than she would have. But sadly that may not be so...

 

[floridaheather]

It was not a wine tasting trip..it was a trip, and they stopped at a winery...and he tasted some wine

for all we know the beer mug may have been his

it is a very hard thing to juggle, when you have a family member/loved one in "recovery"....

[/B]

Yea. I know first hand too. I am NOT saying that anything is his fault or that he is responsible for what SHE does. But it IS interesting that he was the one who told us about her relapse the week or so before, and the dates--this incident w/ this trip where we see evidence of what would be "triggers" to alcoholics (after all, it *was* wine that she bought) seem to suggest that her relapse if not on this trip was right around this time. We can't blame RS for SS drinking, but this is a piece of the puzzle to her mental state & this chain of events IMHO is all.

 

[Miss Optimism]

no, but i think he knows more than he is telling us. and i think it has to do w/ guilt. we discussed earlier--the rush into marriage w/ the "cancer" diagnosis, and his inconsistencies in the story, and him needing the address to Castle Rock as he was leaving, and she was meeting w/ her ex husb that she had been in touch w/ and there is some evidence that things were not as hunky dory as he suggested they were. she is trying to reconnect w/ family members & ex-loved ones in Castle Rock. I just have a lot of questions. I think he is the key to the mystery of why she was that state of mind, as well as maybe why she wasn't on the road. He was trying to "catch w/ her" on the road according to him. I think she may have been avoiding them. And w/ his record of taking trips in the area to explore for photos...there are even a couple where he says something like, I wouldn't be able to go places like this w/out a bike, I think he may know why she chose that beach & how much, exactly she knew about that area. But I think he is worried abt becoming the target of attention or admitting that he was pushing her and she couldn't handle it & feeling guilty in general.

I think in some ways he is trying to protect her. It would seem more odd to me if he said "absolutely she would drive drunk with her son in the car." It seems like he doesn't want to hurt her at all.

Maybe he was pushing her about her drinking and so she just took off and thought it would be a good chance for her to drink since he wouldn't be around to hound her about it.

 

[eyes4crime]

no, but i think he knows more than he is telling us. and i think it has to do w/ guilt. we discussed earlier--the rush into marriage w/ the "cancer" diagnosis, and his inconsistencies in the story, and him needing the address to Castle Rock as he was leaving, and she was meeting w/ her ex husb that she had been in touch w/ and there is some evidence that things were not as hunky dory as he suggested they were. she is trying to reconnect w/ family members & ex-loved ones in Castle Rock. I just have a lot of questions. I think he is the key to the mystery of why she was that state of mind, as well as maybe why she wasn't on the road. He was trying to "catch w/ her" on the road according to him. I think she may have been avoiding them. And w/ his record of taking trips in the area to explore for photos...there are even a couple where he says something like, I wouldn't be able to go places like this w/out a bike, I think he may know why she chose that beach & how much, exactly she knew about that area. But I think he is worried abt becoming the target of attention or admitting that he was pushing her and she couldn't handle it & feeling guilty in general.

In my opinion - the only person responsible for buying wine and drinking it is Smiley! What goes on between two people engaged to be married is not our business and if she turned to alcohol for support, that what she CHOSE to do!

sorry if you think different - but to blame anyone other than the alcoholic for drinking is a maneuver I call 'enabling'. One day it could be her son's fault, next day, school, step-father, the car, bad dinner, poor grade, lost pet, wrong man!!! Even if he said there would be 'murder' she should have called the police and not had wine and run to the beach. IMOO

 

[SMK]

It was not a wine tasting trip..it was a trip, and they stopped at a winery...and he tasted some wine

for all we know the beer mug may have been his

it is a very hard thing to juggle, when you have a family member/loved one in "recovery"....

it is often harder for men, there are lots lots more women in al anon for hubbies/boyfriends...and there are more daughters in al anon I would guess, there for parents/family members....there are more mothers in al anon than dads there for their kids

and I've been there myself ....the one thing I eventually learned was that I had to be there for ME, not for the alcoholic

there are a lot less men who will go through al anon for their partner/etc

and I have attended many "open" meetings of AA, where sometimes women complain that they do NOT get the support (or maybe the enabling) that non alcoholic women lavish upon the male drunks

And there are many ideas and theories also....some abstain totally so as to not "tempt" the recovering alcoholic...however the Big Book tells the alcoholic that eventually they will be able to go where there is alcohol so long as they have a reason to be around it, they will not have to live confined to aa

in fact that is "old school" aa....that eventually an alcoholic should be able to go to a wedding and drink sodas, they should be able to go to family celebrations, their family members should not have to totally abstain...so it is a hard line to walk

and ...here is a sad truth..alcoholics are among the most clever and manipulative people around....a "good" drunk could tell you that their sponsor suggested you go ahead and drink if you choose....a "good drunk" could manipulate a NON aa-educated boyfriend into thinking that it is "ok" if they have a beer or a glass of wine....a drunk will tell you that it was "hard liquor" that was their problem...or pills...or other drugs...or the past "stress"

Al anon gives NON alcoholics the insight and wisdom to see through the various ploys and maneuvers a dry drunk will make on their way to their almost certain "slip"

.see people who love alcoholics become very helpful, very nurturing, caring, our lives become one of concern and tightrope walking, and full of hope we try to believe whatever they tell us.

We want to "fix" them....when we can't even fix ourselves

then we finally come to grips with the 3 C's..and start to work on on our program and develop our own confidence hopefully

I don't know what really happened here...I can only hope that her fiance and his kids get help, therapy....maybe join a family group and try to come to grasps with this tragedy

Thank you for all that informative posting. Very enlightening, and your points are very well taken! Thanks once more. SMK

 

[houndstooth]

I came across a couple posts on the #1 Thread where she had two phone calls at around 4:15 with RS. On the video posted a couple pages back he says HE left out ahead of her. I didn't realize this and seems odd in itself. He starts with the 6:45 conversations and he is already in Castle Rock. The 4:15 conversations was him asking her to bring his phone charger. So her leaving the cell phone does not seem an accidental oversight.

Everything points to her not wanting him to come on the trip and him coming down there anyway. Presumably in her car and she in his van. Why would he leave out ahead of her to arrive at a step parent he had not met and she had not seen so we hear in 4 years. I think he knew she was leaving him. Not that he had anything to do with her disappearance. Just that she may have been seeing and planning this with someone else.
And RS was kind of forcing her hand. The MS page last showed messages back in Nov. So I would speculate she met someone or started seeing them again about 4 months ago.

 

[floridaheather]

I came across a couple posts on the #1 Thread where she had two phone calls at around 4:15 with RS. On the video posted a couple pages back he says HE left out ahead of her. I didn't realize this and seems odd in itself. He starts with the 6:45 conversations and he is already in Castle Rock. The 4:15 conversations was him asking her to bring his phone charger. So her leaving the cell phone does not seem an accidental oversight.

Everything points to her not wanting him to come on the trip and him coming down there anyway. Presumably in her car and she in his van. Why would he leave out ahead of her to arrive at a step parent he had not met and she had not seen so we hear in 4 years. I think he knew she was leaving him. Not that he had anything to do with her disappearance. Just that she may have been seeing and planning this with someone else.
And RS was kind of forcing her hand. The MS page last showed messages back in Nov. So I would speculate she met someone or started seeing them again about 4 months ago.

I totally agree w/ you, Houndstooth!

 

[floridaheather]

[/I][/B]

In my opinion - the only person responsible for buying wine and drinking it is Smiley! What goes on between two people engaged to be married is not our business and if she turned to alcohol for support, that what she CHOSE to do!

sorry if you think different - but to blame anyone other than the alcoholic for drinking is a maneuver I call 'enabling'. One day it could be her son's fault, next day, school, step-father, the car, bad dinner, poor grade, lost pet, wrong man!!! Even if he said there would be 'murder' she should have called the police and not had wine and run to the beach. IMOO

Yes, which is what I said, if you read on & other posts I have written in context. That wasn't my point, but in case you were wondering I agree w/ you that she is to blame for her drinking.

 

[SuziQ]

RS did not take SS on a wine tasting vacation. What we have is his blog saying they went on a vacation, and that one of many stops was at a vineyard one day, where RS sampled the wine.

There is nothing saying that SS had any wine, let alone that RS in any way encouraged or condoned it.

There are no references in the blog to SS consuming alcohol.

There is one picture in the blog from another stop on the same vacation, in which SS has a mug of beer on the table in front of her.

This is how rumors grow legs. That one mug of beer on the table has grown into a sadistic wine tasting vacation.

Thank you. And can I ask that when people are theorizing, that they state IMO, JMO, etc? I see alot of theories being posted as fact.

 

[floridaheather]

[/I][/B]

In my opinion - the only person responsible for buying wine and drinking it is Smiley! What goes on between two people engaged to be married is not our business and if she turned to alcohol for support, that what she CHOSE to do!

sorry if you think different - but to blame anyone other than the alcoholic for drinking is a maneuver I call 'enabling'. One day it could be her son's fault, next day, school, step-father, the car, bad dinner, poor grade, lost pet, wrong man!!! Even if he said there would be 'murder' she should have called the police and not had wine and run to the beach. IMOO

And actually 'enabling' is the term I would assign to being someone's lover & drinking around them knowing they had relapsed--not to someone who doesn't know the person.

 

[floridaheather]

I think in some ways he is trying to protect her. It would seem more odd to me if he said "absolutely she would drive drunk with her son in the car." It seems like he doesn't want to hurt her at all.

Maybe he was pushing her about her drinking and so she just took off and thought it would be a good chance for her to drink since he wouldn't be around to hound her about it.

Could very well be, but then why is she going to see family and her ex-husband?

 

[Beyond Belief]

Did we ever get it straightened out what their body core temperature would be from sleeping in the van at 32 degrees and what would have happened if they got out into water that was 45 degrees. I know the 40 degree chart i read said body temp drops so fast they could have been unconsious in about a half an hour.

 

[SMK]

Did we ever get it straightened out what their body core temperature would be from sleeping in the van at 32 degrees and what would have happened if they got out into water that was 45 degrees. I know the 40 degree chart i read said body temp drops so fast they could have been unconsious in about a half an hour.

Well, the core body temperature drops during sleep, and
Cold water removes heat from the body 25 times faster than cold air. About 50% of that heat loss occurs through the head. Physical activity such as swimming, or other struggling in the water increases heat loss. Survival time can be reduced to minutes. Strong swimmers have died before swimming 100 yards in cold water. In water under 40 degrees F, victims have died before swimming 100 feet.http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/coldwater.html I think it can be safely said, along with what Mealy said about the "ferocious current", that they could have gotten into trouble very quickly, especially if the tide rose and caught them unaware, in their sleep.