WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

[otto]

Awesome. Glad for the outdoor picture, but just upon first glance, I think this is pictures of them looking at the driveway and the porch, possibly tracking RG's prints out of the house. I need a detailed collection of photos for the side of the house where the actual window is.

But thanks for that one.

The photo might even be from around the back of the cottage. In any case, I think it's a bit of a stretch to state that investigators did not do a proper forensic examination of the exterior of the cottage ... and I think we can be sure that they carefully examined the area below the broken window ... wearing their extraterrestrial suits. That area was of particular interet because of the broken window. That is, if they were that careful with one part of the exterior, it's safe to assume they were that careful with all parts of the exterior.

The link from Allusonz to the Dailybeast Barbie Nadeau article said 10 feet. The Nadeau article seems to be based on the link that SMK provided to the Judge's summary. A standard door is about 84" in height and using the image I posted before (with the yellow lines) it looks to me like the window is twice that distance above the ground ... so approx 168", about 14'.

 

[wasnt_me]

With all the recent discussion about "how can we know that the footprints revealed with luminol were made at the time of the murder" ... I think you know the response to a slightly different colored brick on the side of the building.

I did see that other grill in a photo. That is the grill where we see someone from the defense standing on the grill. Someone else is raising up a hand, which is at the height of the climbers foot. I'm still waiting for images showing the rest of the story ... why isn't there a video showing how the guy got up there, and how he then climbed into the window. It's a suggestive and incomplete story. Glass on the window ledge should have been brushed to the ground if only to enter the room without getting cut ... shouldn't it?

I'm not following the thought about the luminol and the scuff on the wall. Dauh, I just figured it out and I do agree.

Perhaps the person in the picture is about to point to something. I don't
recall the hand being close enough to the experiment to mean anything.

I agree that it's an incomplete story and we should be allowed to see all the pictures of that story.

As for the glass, that's why I said the originial thing about there wasn't a 'thorough investigation' because we should see pictures proving that no glass was on the ground or there was some glass on the ground. That picture you showed a couple posts back was of an investigation of the porch, not the side window.

As for the glass, I described in another post how RG had to break out more glass by hand when he got up there, and that's what glass is sitting on the sill, looking kind of as if it'd been placed there. I do believe it should have fallen off, some of it, specks of it when he entered. I also believe though, that if it was a constructed scene, glass still should have fallen to the ground in the same manner when the green shutters were finally opened by the people who allegedly set up a fake scene. Does that make sense?

I'm saying in a real break in scenerio and in a fake break in scenerio, I STILL expect to see a little bit of glass outside. Just a little bit, probably not enough for an "observation" to discover, especially since Leaves had fallen.

 

[wasnt_me]

The photo might even be from around the back of the cottage. In any case, I think it's a bit of a stretch to state that investigators did not do a proper forensic examination of the exterior of the cottage ... and I think we can be sure that they carefully examined the area below the broken window ... wearing their extraterrestrial suits. That area was of particular interet because of the broken window. That is, if they were that careful with one part of the exterior, it's safe to assume they were that careful with all parts of the exterior.

I don't believe it's a stretch because it took them 45 days or so to find a bra clasp that had been supposedly beneath the victim's body on day 1.

Now, if all things had been handled correctly since day 1, I would certainly agree with you. But if it took 45 days or so to find that clasp, even if they did do a deeper investigation outside, when was it? How many days after the crime? Outdoors changes a lot more quickly than indoors, and other people, like the residents, were walking around there, looking for things. They could have raked up the glass, pressed it deeper into the ground--anything. I don't know, just guessing at what could have happened to the evidence while it was outside.

So I want to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but scuttling from room to room in their unchanged footies, wearing their gloves outside and touching the railings, shoving bloody boots under MK's bed and trying to figure out later how a blood mark got under the bed, losing the clasp for 45 days....all that makes me weary about them.

 

[otto]

Yeah, I guess I was still piggy backing off the part about the judge saying RG wouldn't do it downstairs because he knew the boys. Meeting Amanda a few times adds to the fact that he wouldn't do it upstairs for that reason, either.

I have read reports that way the window at the cottage was 13FT, while the window at the law office was 15Ft, possibly 16Ft if I read it wrong, but I am sure I read that the cottage window was a lower height than the law office window.

The link from Allusonz to the Dailybeast Barbie Nadeau article said 10 feet. The Nadeau article seems to be based on the link that SMK provided to the Judge's summary. A standard door is about 84" in height and using the image I posted before (with the yellow lines) it looks to me like the window is twice that distance above the ground ... so approx 168", about 14'.

 

[OldSteve]

Nova, Meredith's family says she was trained in karate, and had a strong will, and would have put up a fight. THIS to me seems to give ample reason why Guede might have pulled the knife, gotten violent: He was not expecting such a fight from a slim, relatively small young woman. In this sense, her fighting may have not been in her best interest. Also, he knew she was a university student who had seem him downstairs and around, and she would identify him.

BBM - yet no marks on AK.... nope! That no photos were taken of her (as far as I know) is strange.
Cannot believe she engaged any sort of sex-gone-wrong kind of orgy with AK, RS, and RG... Cannot believe AK and RS would become involved with RG in spur of the moment activity of this sort.

I can only conclude that whatever took place was against MK's will and done with force. Is it possible that in a drug induced state AK and RS saw what was taking place and cheered RG on, even taunted MK? Possible, but cannot find anything to back that up - no marks from MK kicking AK or RS. No smeared blood by AK, RS in MK's small room. Nothing to place others in MK's room. Is it possible AK cheered RG on while standing outside MK's room? That I cannot answer.. It would be a horrible thought. Yet, had that happened, RG never implicated anything like this took place.

 

[wasnt_me]

So RG standing on that window could possibly get him up to the sill enough to see enough and do a "pull up" like when you excercise, possibly kick tha scuff on the wall once, and be in the room.

Possibly.

 

[wasnt_me]

BBM - yet no marks on AK.... nope! That no photos were taken of her (as far as I know) is strange.

From what i understand, no injuries, except a blemish on her neck that was not bleeding. Now, RG's hand had a cut, but to be fair, have we been told that his actual BLOOD was in the house or just DNA? And do we know if he'd been injured in anyway besides the hand cut? He was picked up 5 or 6 days later, so bruises might have healed, but open wounds? Probably not.

 

[otto]

I'm not following the thought about the luminol and the scuff on the wall. Dauh, I just figured it out and I do agree.

Perhaps the person in the picture is about to point to something. I don't
recall the hand being close enough to the experiment to mean anything.

I agree that it's an incomplete story and we should be allowed to see all the pictures of that story.

As for the glass, that's why I said the originial thing about there wasn't a 'thorough investigation' because we should see pictures proving that no glass was on the ground or there was some glass on the ground. That picture you showed a couple posts back was of an investigation of the porch, not the side window.

As for the glass, I described in another post how RG had to break out more glass by hand when he got up there, and that's what glass is sitting on the sill, looking kind of as if it'd been placed there. I do believe it should have fallen off, some of it, specks of it when he entered. I also believe though, that if it was a constructed scene, glass still should have fallen to the ground in the same manner when the green shutters were finally opened by the people who allegedly set up a fake scene. Does that make sense?

I'm saying in a real break in scenerio and in a fake break in scenerio, I STILL expect to see a little bit of glass outside. Just a little bit, probably not enough for an "observation" to discover, especially since Leaves had fallen.

If you need to see everything with your own eyes, such as photos of the same extraterrestrials standing below Filomina's window, then I suppose it will be difficult to believe anything about the case. We haven't seen detailed photos of Laura's room, so maybe that was ransacked, and we haven't seen detailed photos of the other bathroom so maybe that was covered in blood ... hard to be sure if we need to see everything with our own eyes.

 

[otto]

So RG standing on that window could possibly get him up to the sill enough to see enough and do a "pull up" like when you excercise, possibly kick tha scuff on the wall once, and be in the room.

Possibly.

And the glass on the outside window ledge? Why didn't some of end up on the ground ... or are we going to argue that police didn't actually investigate outside the cottage?

 

[otto]

From what i understand, no injuries, except a blemish on her neck that was not bleeding. Now, RG's hand had a cut, but to be fair, have we been told that his actual BLOOD was in the house or just DNA? And do we know if he'd been injured in anyway besides the hand cut? He was picked up 5 or 6 days later, so bruises might have healed, but open wounds? Probably not.

No blood from Rudy in the cottage.

 

[Nova]

Here's an image of investigators collecting evidence outside the cottage. It looks like a thorough investigation to me ... complete with all the tools one would expect from forensic experts. I highly doubt suggestions that investigators simple speculated that there was no broken glass on the ground outside the window.

Ref: Perugiamurderfile.net

Is there a date on that photo? 'Cause if they waited a month and a half to collect evidence from an exterior space, well...

 

[SMK]

BBM - yet no marks on AK.... nope! That no photos were taken of her (as far as I know) is strange.
Cannot believe she engaged any sort of sex-gone-wrong kind of orgy with AK, RS, and RG... Cannot believe AK and RS would become involved with RG in spur of the moment activity of this sort.

I can only conclude that whatever took place was against MK's will and done with force. Is it possible that in a drug induced state AK and RS saw what was taking place and cheered RG on, even taunted MK? Possible, but cannot find anything to back that up - no marks from MK kicking AK or RS. No smeared blood by AK, RS in MK's small room. Nothing to place others in MK's room. Is it possible AK cheered RG on while standing outside MK's room? That I cannot answer.. It would be a horrible thought. Yet, had that happened, RG never implicated anything like this took place.

Yes, if you look at that piece in the Sun, (it was on the last thread, but I cannot locate it now---journalist was saying kercher murder was a fight staged to LOOK sexual) it would appear to make sense..........EXCEPT, as you note, where are the marks on AK and RS??? & why as you also note, would Rudy have not said, "THEY told me to do it, they egged me on".

 

[Nova]

Nova, Meredith's family says she was trained in karate, and had a strong will, and would have put up a fight. THIS to me seems to give ample reason why Guede might have pulled the knife, gotten violent: He was not expecting such a fight from a slim, relatively small young woman. In this sense, her fighting may have not been in her best interest. Also, he knew she was a university student who had seem him downstairs and around, and she would identify him.

Good points. I don't for a moment think MK's family would tell anything but the truth, but all the karate training in the world can't tell how one will react the first time one is actually attacked. But assuming MK fought back and fought hard, that may have been enough to produce an uncontrollable rage in RG.

 

[wasnt_me]

If you need to see everything with your own eyes, such as photos of the same extraterrestrials standing below Filomina's window, then I suppose it will be difficult to believe anything about the case. We haven't seen detailed photos of Laura's room, so maybe that was ransacked, and we haven't seen detailed photos of the other bathroom so maybe that was covered in blood ... hard to be sure if we need to see everything with our own eyes.

Otto, I'll have to remember you said this when you are questioning evidence, too.

The breakin is pivitol to the case, in my opinion, so I want to see if there was glass on the ground or not. Why is that a bad thing? Something was in Laura's toilet. They took a picture of that, and I saw that. Didn't want to see the boo-boo, but they sure photographed it and we know for 100% sure he left it.

So it's not a bad thing to want to see the glass outside. I don't want to make this personal, but it's not fair to give me that kind of answer when you've challenged things and asked for proof of things. not only have you asked for that proof, when someone has provided it, you've said the source wasn't credible. It just happened today with the information about RG's past burglaries.

So with all due respect, if you feel that you cannot help me further, just say that you cannot, and I will respectfully direct my questions elsewhere.

Thanks!

 

[otto]

Yes, if you look at that piece in the Sun, (it was on the last thread, but I cannot locate it now---journalist was saying kercher murder was a fight staged to LOOK sexual) it would appear to make sense..........EXCEPT, as you note, where are the marks on AK and RS??? & why as you also note, would Rudy have not said, "THEY told me to do it, they egged me on".

Her bra was cut off after she had been fatally injured. There were 43 injuries to Meredith. I doubt three assailants would have much in the way of injuries.

 

[Nova]

The photo might even be from around the back of the cottage. In any case, I think it's a bit of a stretch to state that investigators did not do a proper forensic examination of the exterior of the cottage ... and I think we can be sure that they carefully examined the area below the broken window ... wearing their extraterrestrial suits. That area was of particular interet because of the broken window. That is, if they were that careful with one part of the exterior, it's safe to assume they were that careful with all parts of the exterior....

I don't think it's safe to assume anything in this case. No DNA testing of the other occupants of the house? That's Forensics 101. If a thorough examination of the ground beneath the window was performed, where are the photos? Where is the testimony?

Where is the expert testimony on glass patterns, etc., that proves the break-in was staged? Oh, that's right: some non-professional saw glass on her computer case. (Just to be clear: I'm not rolling my eyes at you, otto. I am very frustrated at how much of this case depends on our blind faith in Italian LE. Sorry, but I don't have blind faith in California LE. Why would I have greater faith in the Italians?)

 

[otto]

Otto, I'll have to remember you said this when you are questioning evidence, too.

The breakin is pivitol to the case, in my opinion, so I want to see if there was glass on the ground or not. Why is that a bad thing? Something was in Laura's toilet. They took a picture of that, and I saw that. Didn't want to see the boo-boo, but they sure photographed it and we know for 100% sure he left it.

So it's not a bad thing to want to see the glass outside. I don't want to make this personal, but it's not fair to give me that kind of answer when you've challenged things and asked for proof of things. not only have you asked for that proof, when someone has provided it, you've said the source wasn't credible. It just happened today with the information about RG's past burglaries.

So with all due respect, if you feel that you cannot help me further, just say that you cannot, and I will respectfully direct my questions elsewhere.

Thanks!

Go ahead. First we read that there was no investigation on the exterior of the cottage, so I reference information in the Judge's summary detailing the findings from the investigation under the window. Then we read that investigators didn't really investigate, they just looked and reported their thoughts, so I provide a photo of what investigators did outside the cottage. Then we read that because there is no photo of those investigators standing underneath the window, we should still doubt that investigators did a thorough investigation of the area under the window.

Sure, if you present that sort of information to me, and I refuse to accept the obvious, you should remind me of my remark.

 

[Nova]

BBM - yet no marks on AK.... nope! That no photos were taken of her (as far as I know) is strange.
Cannot believe she engaged any sort of sex-gone-wrong kind of orgy with AK, RS, and RG... Cannot believe AK and RS would become involved with RG in spur of the moment activity of this sort.

I can only conclude that whatever took place was against MK's will and done with force. Is it possible that in a drug induced state AK and RS saw what was taking place and cheered RG on, even taunted MK? Possible, but cannot find anything to back that up - no marks from MK kicking AK or RS. No smeared blood by AK, RS in MK's small room. Nothing to place others in MK's room. Is it possible AK cheered RG on while standing outside MK's room? That I cannot answer.. It would be a horrible thought. Yet, had that happened, RG never implicated anything like this took place.

Karate aside, given the size of that room, anyone present for the murder would most likely have at least superficial knife cuts as well. IMO.

 

[OldSteve]

Her bra was cut off after she had been fatally injured. There were 43 injuries to Meredith. I doubt three assailants would have much in the way of injuries.

Disagree - would be rare for there to be no scratches, etc... but even so, if by chance no marks made, I still cannot find blood smears, etc to shows othes in the room with MK in what had to involve allot activity if the orgy said to take place really did.
Oh, least I forgot - RG not implicating AK or RS.

 

[Nova]

Go ahead. First we read that there was no investigation on the exterior of the cottage, so I reference information in the Judge's summary detailing the findings from the investigation under the window. Then we read that investigators didn't really investigate, they just looked and reported their thoughts, so I provide a photo of what investigators did outside the cottage. Then we read that because there is no photo of those investigators standing underneath the window, we should still doubt that investigators did a thorough investigation of the area under the window.

Sure, if you present that sort of information to me, and I refuse to accept the obvious, you should remind me of my remark.

otto, surely you can understand our frustration with what is missing in terms of expert testing, analysis and testimony.

You are willing to look at a photo of techs looking at one piece of ground and assume all ground was carefully examined. But we know all the residents weren't treated the same forensically, so why think the ground was?