WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #9

[wasnt_me]

It is on the main floor, but not directly below Filomina's window.

When I was still trying to figure out whether Amanda and Raffaele were involved, I looked at the metal grill below the window. These are some images I put together

Someone breaking in using the metal grill on the main floor should have ended up in Amanda's bedroom, not Filominas.

Are you saying to me that those bars that were on the window below FR's room were in fact not on that window?

I'm very confused at the point you're getting at, because the theory is that he could have climbed on those security bars on that lower window or he could have reached around from the front porch. I'm not into the front porch theory, though.

Did you draw all these lines on the photos or was this from some other investigation? Just asking, because if it's another investigative report, I'd like to read it.

I just do not understand why you are saying that those bars on that window below FR's room were not there unless I somehow misunderstood the pictures of the crime scene.

As for your other post about whether pictures were put out or they weren't, and what's on the internet and what's not, I really can't prove that. If you want to say there's no proof one way or another that these pictures exist because they were possibly not leaked, I can accept that. What I have a problem with is if the defense also says there's no such detailed investigation. So if I find that the defense has also asserted that they do not exist, that means they plain do not exist. So you'll be the first to know if I find that. If you haven't seen the pictures of a details investigation, though, then you can't say definitively if there were or were not footprints and glass outside, either.

I have no problems conceding when people have a point, but it's hard when others won't do the same in return.

on second thought, what I'll try to do is read the language in the report. If anytime they refer to specific photos or evidence, then I'll let you know, because there is no reason for the language of the document to say "observations" in one spot when referring to evidence, but then refer to actual photos etc of other evidence. It's my assumption that if they have the photos, they'll refer to them. If they don't, that's why they said "observations."

 

[Nova]

At both the law office and cottage, there was a door or window directly under the balcony with a metal grill. The balcony was about 10 feet above the ground at both locations. At both locations, there were French doors on the balcony. At the law office, Rudy made use of this and entered the office through the French doors on the balcony. At the cottage, he ignored the easy and familiar method for breaking in, and instead scaled a wall without a metal grill (nothing to step on) to a height about about 15 or 20 feet and climbed in through a broken window (without getting any glass on the ground below).

Seems to be quite different to me.

That's fine, otto, but I was referring to Massei's comment that the via della Pergola break-in was "completely different" because RG knew the occupants of the first floor. That's the leap I find unconvincing.

 

[otto]

Are you saying to me that those bars that were on the window below FR's room were in fact not on that window?

I'm very confused at the point you're getting at, because the theory is that he could have climbed on those security bars on that lower window or he could have reached around from the front porch. I'm not into the front porch theory, though.

Did you draw all these lines on the photos or was this from some other investigation? Just asking, because if it's another investigative report, I'd like to read it.

I just do not understand why you are saying that those bars on that window below FR's room were not there unless I somehow misunderstood the pictures of the crime scene.

As for your other post about whether pictures were put out or they weren't, and what's on the internet and what's not, I really can't prove that. If you want to say there's no proof one way or another that these pictures exist because they were possibly not leaked, I can accept that. What I have a problem with is if the defense also says there's no such detailed investigation. So if I find that the defense has also asserted that they do not exist, that means they plain do not exist. So you'll be the first to know if I find that.

There are two windows along that wall. The one closest to the entrance is Filomina's, the next one is Amanda's. You can see by looking at the images that the metal grill on the main floor is directly below Amanda's bedroom window. Why not break through Amanda's window?

I added the lines because the photo is in perspective. I wanted to understand whether someone could have climbed up that metal grill to break into Filomina's room. My conclusions, based on drawing straight lines from the ground to the roof, is that Amanda's bedroom is directly above the metal grill.

 

[otto]

That's fine, otto, but I was referring to Massei's comment that the via della Pergola break-in was "completely different" because RG knew the occupants of the first floor. That's the leap I find unconvincing.

Yes, the judge seems to draw a line between people breaking into friend's residences and breaking into stranger's residences. Maybe it's some kind of knowledge he acquire through work in the justice system ... and maybe he's just making stuff up.

 

[Nova]

Seven, not including Raffaele, by the age of 20 ... definitely not 70 in 60 days, as was reported at the Innocence Forum held at Washington State U (Steve Moore, Dempsey, Wright, Ciolino, someone else) earlier this week.

Thank you, otto, that's what I thought. That is not what I would call "promiscuous." (Which isn't to say the boys downstairs didn't think of AK as promiscuous or tell RG she was (especially if she had a one-night stand with one of the roommates). I think we all know boys who exaggerate such things at that age.)

 

[wasnt_me]

Okay, I see that, but what of the metal bars on the window below FR's room? These are inconsequential?

As for the why not? That's RG's decision to choose his entry point. I cannot say why he chose it, unless he actually did reach around from the porch to pull those shutters back.

Or he could have climbed up to Amanda's window first, saw that her shutters were locked. I don't know. The only way we'd know that for certain is whether or not it was reported the condition of Amanda's shutters. I can only speculate.

 

[Nova]

Yes, the judge seems to draw a line between people breaking into friend's residences and breaking into stranger's residences. Maybe it's some kind of knowledge he acquire through work in the justice system ... and maybe he's just making stuff up.

Except that RG quite obviously did NOT break into his friends' residence. He broke into the apartment of upstairs neighbors he barely knew.

And as other posters have noted: friendship may not matter much to drug addicts, assuming RG was one.

 

[Nova]

It is on the main floor, but not directly below Filomina's window.

When I was still trying to figure out whether Amanda and Raffaele were involved, I looked at the metal grill below the window. These are some images I put together

Someone breaking in using the metal grill on the main floor should have ended up in Amanda's bedroom, not Filominas.

Point taken. But the greater size of Filomena's window may have made it a more attractive point of entry.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, the judge seems to draw a line between people breaking into friend's residences and breaking into stranger's residences. Maybe it's some kind of knowledge he acquire through work in the justice system ... and maybe he's just making stuff up.

I gotta go with "making stuff up," because if RG knows the boys, one of the boys was dating one of the girls. So RG's knows the girls by association. Not only that, the boys MIGHT have known that he was a petty thief, so wouldn't they maybe at least consider him on a burglary upstairs?

these speculations might cast doubt on RG's burlgary motive, but still...the judge is off base to think a friendship would keep RG out of the downstairs. A friendship should have kept RG from any illegal entry on that property, if we are going with that theory.

 

[otto]

Thank you, otto, that's what I thought. That is not what I would call "promiscuous." (Which isn't to say the boys downstairs didn't think of AK as promiscuous or tell RG she was (especially if she had a one-night stand with one of the roommates). I think we all know boys who exaggerate such things at that age.)

I don't think that Amanda seems promiscuous to her peers. Many women in that age group are very open with sex ... viewing it as more of a sport (that may not be the right word, but something along those lines) than something reserved for marriage.

 

[otto]

Okay, I see that, but what of the metal bars on the window below FR's room? These are inconsequential?

As for the why not? That's RG's decision to choose his entry point. I cannot say why he chose it, unless he actually did reach around from the porch to pull those shutters back.

Or he could have climbed up to Amanda's window first, saw that her shutters were locked. I don't know. The only way we'd know that for certain is whether or not it was reported the condition of Amanda's shutters. I can only speculate.

As far as I could see, there are no metal bars below Filomina's bedroom window. Have you seen another angle of the cottage where there bars below Filomina's bedroom? When I put those images together I was in fact trying to find an explanation for how Rudy climbed in through the window ... but the question that wouldn't go away was: why didn't he climb the metal grill directly under Amanda's room and in through her window? That makes far more sense than somehow horizontally scaling the wall, 16 feet off the ground, to Filomina's room.

I'm assuming that Rudy, if he broke in, was looking for the easiest way to enter the cottage. The balcony and Amanda's window both seem easier than Filomina's bedroom.

 

[otto]

Point taken. But the greater size of Filomena's window may have made it a more attractive point of entry.

Maybe, but Rudy is 6' tall and thin. There were bars on some of the windows. I'll look for a picture of Amanda's window ... as I don't remember if there were bars on her window. I didn't find any images that show security bars on the window.

 

[otto]

I gotta go with "making stuff up," because if RG knows the boys, one of the boys was dating one of the girls. So RG's knows the girls by association. Not only that, the boys MIGHT have known that he was a petty thief, so wouldn't they maybe at least consider him on a burglary upstairs?

these speculations might cast doubt on RG's burlgary motive, but still...the judge is off base to think a friendship would keep RG out of the downstairs. A friendship should have kept RG from any illegal entry on that property, if we are going with that theory.

IIRC, Rudy and Amanda had met three times: at the club where she worked, in the square, and then at a party (about 6-7 people) smoking drugs in the downstairs part of the cottage.

I understood the judge to be identifying differences between the break in at the law office and the staged break in at the cottage. Most notably, although there were metal grills, balconies, and French doors at both locations and Rudy was known to enter using the balcony at the law office, we are to believe he chose to scale a 16 foot flat wall at the cottage. The judge also states that Rudy was known to enter public buildings (law office, daycare) where he knew no one, but here it was alleged that he broke into a residence where he knew all of the occupants.

 

[otto]

Here's an image of investigators collecting evidence outside the cottage. It looks like a thorough investigation to me ... complete with all the tools one would expect from forensic experts. I highly doubt suggestions that investigators simple speculated that there was no broken glass on the ground outside the window.

Ref: Perugiamurderfile.net

 

[SMK]

IIRC, Rudy and Amanda had met three times: at the club where she worked, in the square, and then at a party (about 6-7 people) smoking drugs in the downstairs part of the cottage.

I understood the judge to be identifying differences between the break in at the law office and the staged break in at the cottage. Most notably, although there were metal grills, balconies, and French doors at both locations and Rudy was known to enter using the balcony at the law office, we are to believe he chose to scale a 16 foot flat wall at the cottage. The judge also states that Rudy was known to enter public buildings (law office, daycare) where he knew no one, but here it was alleged that he broke into a residence where he knew all of the occupants.

OK, now that I am calmer, I can see the distinction. However, I do believe something such as it being a night where a. everyone was presumably out and b. the night before rents were due-- may possibly have made this part of the opportunistic pattern (of unlawful entry when he was in need of something). I think although it is a departure, it is not a great one.

 

[wasnt_me]

As far as I could see, there are no metal bars below Filomina's bedroom window. Have you seen another angle of the cottage where there bars below Filomina's bedroom? When I put those images together I was in fact trying to find an explanation for how Rudy climbed in through the window ... but the question that wouldn't go away was: why didn't he climb the metal grill directly under Amanda's room and in through her window? That makes far more sense than somehow horizontally scaling the wall, 16 feet off the ground, to Filomina's room.

I'm assuming that Rudy, if he broke in, was looking for the easiest way to enter the cottage. The balcony and Amanda's window both seem easier than Filomina's bedroom.

Okay, that's where I'm getting confused, I guess, because I have been assumming that these bars have been on this window since the night of the murder. Is this not true? Below, I did not draw that blue arrow, but it points to a scrap mark RG allegedly made AFTER he climbed on the metal bars that are on the window below the blue arrow. That's why I keep asking if you're saying those bars were not there. They look just the same as those bars on that door. I have to look back at your picture with the lines, but by looking, the window appears the same height as the door as well.

 

[wasnt_me]

Here's an image of investigators collecting evidence outside the cottage. It looks like a thorough investigation to me ... complete with all the tools one would expect from forensic experts. I highly doubt suggestions that investigators simple speculated that there was no broken glass on the ground outside the window.

Ref: Perugiamurderfile.net

Awesome. Glad for the outdoor picture, but just upon first glance, I think this is pictures of them looking at the driveway and the porch, possibly tracking RG's prints out of the house. I need a detailed collection of photos for the side of the house where the actual window is.

But thanks for that one.

 

[SMK]

I don't totally understand why the same perp reacts violently sometimes but not others. Perhaps, as you say, RG was escalating.

Or maybe MK screamed and that frightened him. Or maybe he had a thing for her and found her vulnerable that night. (I'm not blaming MK obviously.)

I was juror on a murder trial where the defendant stabbed the victim ten times with a huge knife. The defendant was claiming self-defense, but when asked why he stabbed 10 times when once would have incapacitated the victim, he said that after the first stab, he simply couldn't help himself, that (these are my words now) a sort of "blood lust" came over him and he just kept stabbing until he was exhausted.

Maybe RG started by just trying to quiet MK or reason with her and then he couldn't stop himself until she was dying.

Nova, Meredith's family says she was trained in karate, and had a strong will, and would have put up a fight. THIS to me seems to give ample reason why Guede might have pulled the knife, gotten violent: He was not expecting such a fight from a slim, relatively small young woman. In this sense, her fighting may have not been in her best interest. Also, he knew she was a university student who had seem him downstairs and around, and she would identify him.

 

[otto]

Okay, that's where I'm getting confused, I guess, because I have been assumming that these bars have been on this window since the night of the murder. Is this not true? Below, I did not draw that blue arrow, but it points to a scrap mark RG allegedly made AFTER he climbed on the metal bars that are on the window below the blue arrow. That's why I keep asking if you're saying those bars were not there. They look just the same as those bars on that door. I have to look back at your picture with the lines, but by looking, the window appears the same height as the door as well.

With all the recent discussion about "how can we know that the footprints revealed with luminol were made at the time of the murder" ... I think you know the response to a slightly different colored brick on the side of the building.

I did see that other grill in a photo. That is the grill where we see someone from the defense standing on the grill. Someone else is raising up a hand, which is at the height of the climbers foot. I'm still waiting for images showing the rest of the story ... why isn't there a video showing how the guy got up there, and how he then climbed into the window. It's a suggestive and incomplete story. Glass on the window ledge should have been brushed to the ground if only to enter the room without getting cut ... shouldn't it?

 

[wasnt_me]

IIRC, Rudy and Amanda had met three times: at the club where she worked, in the square, and then at a party (about 6-7 people) smoking drugs in the downstairs part of the cottage.

I understood the judge to be identifying differences between the break in at the law office and the staged break in at the cottage. Most notably, although there were metal grills, balconies, and French doors at both locations and Rudy was known to enter using the balcony at the law office, we are to believe he chose to scale a 16 foot flat wall at the cottage. The judge also states that Rudy was known to enter public buildings (law office, daycare) where he knew no one, but here it was alleged that he broke into a residence where he knew all of the occupants.

Yeah, I guess I was still piggy backing off the part about the judge saying RG wouldn't do it downstairs because he knew the boys. Meeting Amanda a few times adds to the fact that he wouldn't do it upstairs for that reason, either.

I have read reports that way the window at the cottage was 13FT, while the window at the law office was 15Ft, possibly 16Ft if I read it wrong, but I am sure I read that the cottage window was a lower height than the law office window.