Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[cheko1]

BRAVO, Cheko1 !!! :clap:

Every passionate and frustrated/knowing word you wrote ... echoes hugely within me!

AGREED!!!

Polk ...

Thank you PolkSaladAnnie........:blowkiss:

 

[Texana]

Cheko...............I'd love to see the media get back into the YFZ ranch and this time ask the hard questions..........
1. Why are you refusing to identify yourselves and your children?
2. If you really want your children back, why won't you cooperate with the authorities?
3. Marilyn.........you gave a tour of your home. Where are the children's toys?
4. Where are the children's fathers? Don't they care about the children? Why won't they talk to anyone?

I bet those of us here at WS could come up with some good questions!
quote]

Yes Leila it would be mighty interesting.

I think they should be made to answer many of the questions. Guess we'll just have to wait until they go to trial. If they haven't headed for the hills & still in hiding that is!

Couldn't agree with you more!

They don't care about their children, children are just the means to assuring the parents a comfortable after life.

 

[FlowerChild]

Cheko...............I'd love to see the media get back into the YFZ ranch and this time ask the hard questions..........
1. Why are you refusing to identify yourselves and your children?
2. If you really want your children back, why won't you cooperate with the authorities?
3. Marilyn.........you gave a tour of your home. Where are the children's toys?
4. Where are the children's fathers? Don't they care about the children? Why won't they talk to anyone?

I bet those of us here at WS could come up with some good questions!
quote]

Yes Leila it would be mighty interesting.

I think they should be made to answer many of the questions. Guess we'll just have to wait until they go to trial. If they haven't headed for the hills & still in hiding that is!

I think MOST of the FLDS members US-Wide INCLUDING most if not all of the YFZ mothers who were there during the raid (maybe those of childbearing age?) and probably ALL of the men except 4 or 5 who may not have ANY children in custody or ANY children with an underage mother are GONE. They aren't going to run in public - but I betcha that they are every one in Mexico right now. They aren't gonna pull up a bus and load em up (like the kids) - they are gonna gather at some back road on the ranch in the dark of night and take off one car full at a time - nobody is really watching them all that closely now - they have removed the endangered children, there is no reason and NONE of them have been charged with a crime ...YET. They are free to go..and I think they DID and ARE. They would rather abandon their kids than stay and fight for them...true to their doctrine - that is not their role...the women will leave that to the "men" and their lawyers - while they start over in Mexico where they feel safe and insulated from the beasts and infidels that have corrupted their children and might also corrupt and ruin THEM. And they don't think they can survive outside the FLDS - they must have their husband and their "sister-wives" --- but not their children - there are more of those (children) where the 1st batch came from...fertility is obviously NOT an issue in the FLDS church - or maybe they only "keep the successful breeders"?

We must stop trying to apply our "worldly" logic to this group of people, because they don't operate or think like we do. You do realize there is a reason NONE of them have more than a 6th grade education (if it's even equivalent to that in OUR world). Then they might "think" or "feel" or show emotion and thinking and feeling on ones own, without the training and guidance of your father, husband and prophet is NOT permitted.

I think the FLDS is for all intents and purposes FINISHED and out of business in the USA - and I think it will be a long time before they return..if ever. Not for the kids, not for ANYTHING. They would rather give up their children than betray their church or defy their "Prophet" -and they have no intention of going to JAIL or PRISON or sitting in court and allowing a bunch of infidels and demons to sit in judgment of their lifestyle or their choices or WORST OF ALL, question them publicly. Warren Jeffs is already in jail and they don't intend to join him - no matter what the cost. And they do believe that is what will happen to them if they stay - they believe they cannot get justice in our courts - because Warren Jeffs didn't...at least in their eyes.

My Opinion

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

ok I read the article at the link above. I think I see where some of the confusion comes in. Before 2005 the law in Texas allowed its citizens to marry at age 14. Since 2005 the law has been changed to 16. So if a girl became pregnant at age 14 in 2005 she would be a 17 year old mother now. I wonder how the state can prosecute a person for doing something that was legal then and isn't now? Their best case is to find girls who are currently pregnant and under 16 and what I had read is that there are possibly 3 girls in that category. If so then that is less than the number of girls who get pregnant in Texas at the same age who are not FLDS.

The last figure I heard was that there are 5 girls between 16 and 19 who are pregnant.

That would only apply if the 14 year old legally married a man who had no other legal wife. If it was only spiritual marriage, then it would not have been legal.

 

[Trino]

I cannot find the original article but reading in the comments following THIS article
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2008/04/19/news/top/doc48095d0a7405a514684976.txt the "locals" are saying the women and children went 1st and (by the 18th) and from the little blurb I read at the end of another article it said there was NO-ONE at the SD compound today (4-22) - not even the "head guy" who was the one the authorities and neighbors had contact with. According to the little blurb I read ALL the known FLDS compounds in the USA are being systematically emptied/evacuated. I DO remember in one of the YouTube videos the documentary film makes TOOK an ex-member down into Mexico to get some of her belongings that were with her daughter and THAT compound was like 15 miles from even a rough DIRT road in the middle of NOWHERE in Mexico - somewhere South of the AZ border.

They are RUNNING - men women and children...poof, gone..overnight. THIS is why the CPS in Texas HAD to remove the children and keep them under their strict supervision. These supposedly honest, hard working, very religious and upstanding people who have nothing to hide are afraid to face any scrutiny by US or State Authorities in ANY way. If they are so innocent - then WHY would ALL the members across the USA find it necessary to disappear in the night? There have been NO allegations about anyone at any other compound - if forced marriage and impregnating 14 year old girls and abusing children and infants wasn't common practice then WHY RUN?

They keep saying they have done nothing wrong and their life and parenting are exemplary and perfect and wholesome and moral and they just want to prove it and get their kids back. If that is the case ...where ARE THEY??? The kids, the women and now the men...ALL GONE - like they never existed. It is being reported that like 5 men remain at the YFZ Ranch to care for livestock and everyone else is GONE. Where are all those "weeping" mothers from YFZ today? 3 Men showed up for DNA - 3 MEN! That's all - and reports are that all the woman are not at YFZ either.

I said early on that if the heat didn't let up on these "perfect" loving parents and they got a chance to get away they would disappear and abandon their now "ruined by the infidels" children to the state of Texas. And so, it appears that they have. Like I said earlier, what MOTHER joyfully and willingly escorts her 14 year old daughter to a marriage bed with a man her daughter has never met and who is probably a MINIUMUM of 30 years her senior? And I say now, what MOTHER OR FATHER abandons their child/children to the state and LEAVES without a word? Wanna wager that they "Prophet" sent them to Mexico and they are even now preparing to start new families there, where the US cannot reach them or extradite them to face charges here without a fight.

Any parent who can hand off their child in marriage to a stranger or just send them to another compound to another mother and father - just hand them over to another family without question is IMO, perfectly prepared to abandon their now "ruined" children to the "beast" and go off to another place, another compound and begin again and never look back. And I think THAT is what they will do - those "mothers" are MORE concerned with obeying their "prophet" and their husband and remaining obedient and "sweet" and compliant than they are with their children. I still believe to these people children are considered like livestock or a possession - it's just a loss, like losing a herd or cattle to a storm or something - they just keep moving forward and never look back - those kids are just "things" to them and now they are more trouble than they are worth so they'll just cut their losses and start over elsewhere. When it comes to choosing between religion and it's tenets and a living CHILD they prefer to abandon the CHILD/CHILDREN before betraying (as they see it) their husband and their "Prophet".

Tell me again how these ADULTS are not brainwashed and this is not a cult? Only those who fear the TRUTH and the REALITY more than they fear their leaders would leave a CHILD behind - and THAT is the very definition of brainwashed. It's sad for the children BUT I cannot help but feel they will survive and even THRIVE and have been mercifully spared and escaped a living hell with the FLDS CULT. They say that the children are closest to God and I think He is watching over these kids in a very special way - and I HOPE thru these kids, He will see that MORE will be rescued.

My Opinion

This was my prediction from an earlier post. I cannot understand why authorities would allow the women to return to the compound and/or why the men would not be arrested if they were suspected of child abuse.

If it is true that the compound is empty, what's next? Adoption for these kids?

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Last I heard Admins were looking to create a private forum for this topic.

Why private? And how can people get in on it then? What will be the criteria to join it? I don't post a whole lot, but, this is of such interest to me. I have been studying Mormanism, FLDS, and Polygamy for years. I don't always post much cause often I would just be echoing other's comments but I would hate to see this locked off so I couldn't read it.

 

[golfmom]

Why private? And how can people get in on it then? What will be the criteria to join it? I don't post a whole lot, but, this is of such interest to me. I have been studying Mormanism, FLDS, and Polygamy for years. I don't always post much cause often I would just be echoing other's comments but I would hate to see this locked off so I couldn't read it.

If they do, it be a public forum that anyone can read, and websleuths members can post on. Just like any of the case forums.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Why private? And how can people get in on it then? What will be the criteria to join it? I don't post a whole lot, but, this is of such interest to me. I have been studying Mormanism, FLDS, and Polygamy for years. I don't always post much cause often I would just be echoing other's comments but I would hate to see this locked off so I couldn't read it.

I meant a seperate forum. Sorry I had just woken up when I posted that, it would be public, but have its own seperate forum.

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

I meant a seperate forum. Sorry I had just woken up when I posted that, it would be public, but have its own seperate forum.

Thanks, Ladybass! Just got excited there for a moment.

 

[Leila]

Nancy Grace is on and reporting on this. The CNN reporter on scene says that 175 men and women were ordered to appear for DNA testing today. She says that only somewhere between one - two dozen men and women showed up for testing.

A caller to Nancy Grace asked if the men and women at the FLDS compound are free to go and have any of them fled. Nancy referred that question to the reporter who said that yes they are free to go and some have left.

The reporter on scene said that one piece of evidence the authorities have is a paper from the temple, a list of spiritual marriages between children 13, 14, and 15 years old.

In regard to the pregnant teens, the reporter said that between 12-18 are pregnant. Some have given birth since they've been in the state's custody.

I read an article last night that said that CPS has had difficulties getting an accurate head count because when they'd do a head count, they'd find that there were people missing from the room - in the restrooms or taking a shower. In addition, some of the teens who initially said they were 18 or 19, but have now admitted they're minors. Also, there's been several births.

 

[southcitymom]

I am glad that you used the word "appear". I "appear" to condone.

I think that anytime you have a very small group that feel something very strongly and along comes one person who doesn't agree it can be hard to listen to what they are really saying.

There is an equal possibility that that one poster can not be 100% clear in each and every post. I can appreciate that about myself. Just yesterday I posted a long and rambling post about CPS and a very kind poster asked me to explain myself and sure enough I was thinking in my own little head about one small aspect of this case and my post came out very garbled. Her pointing that out enabled me to correct it. So in case I have been unclear in that same sense to you I will try to say it in a way that makes it a little more clear where I stand. I appreciate you giving me that opportunity MostlyLurking.

Here is my stand.

1) I wont use inflammatory inaccurate terms to whip up another's feelings. The facts can support themselves without that. (see rant below)

2) I do not suscribe to the belief that it is ok to hurt a "few" people and tread on their rights if we can accomplish a "greater" good for the many as determined by the state.

3) I think the power of the government should be carefully watched when it comes to their "reach" into the family home.

4) I do not believe it is the course of wisdom take over anothers life when we cannot offer them anything better than what they currently have.

5) I do believe that pedophiles should not only be removed from society but should in fact be executed if it is definite that they have offended. John Couey or Father James Porter are two that would be eligible in my mind.

6) I think this case will end up going to the Supreme Court. I don't know if it will be over the 1st amendment or the IV.

7) For what its worth, I think that most people are having a hard time separating out the underage aspect of this from the polygamy part.


aforementioned rant::crazy:
I have not and will not use inflammatory phrases like "pedophile" to describe each and every man in the compound. All of us who read and post on a crime forum know what a true pedophile is. It is a man (we will say man for the purpose of simplicity here) who has a sexual interest in children who have not developed sexually. It is a pathological twist in their mental make up. They are sexually excited by a prepubescent child . The FLDS men wait until a girl menstruates and then she is spiritually "married". This seems an awful practice to me personally living in the time period I do but it isn't true pedophilia according to the medical definition. What it is could be more accurately defined as adults engaging in illegal sexual activity with minors.

But that doesn't care the same punch to say that. Its more accurate, but not as titillating. And by the way, yes, I do think there are sexual predators among the FLDS. I think Warren Jeff's is one. He is exactly where he needs to be. Hope they find a way to keep him a long time. That aside, I cant condemn every man in this sect on the basis of that. Not anymore than I can condemn the entire Catholic church on the basis of the rampant pedophilia(meeting the ACCURATE definition) that has and still does occur in their ranks.

Glow,

Just wanted to pop in and say I am completely down with your way of considering this tragic situation. I'll have to read all night to catch up on this thread, but just wanted you to know that you are not alone in your thought processes!:blowkiss: When I have the energy, I'll join the frey.

love, SCM

 

[Vegas Bride]

I wonder what's going on with the 6 women who did not go back to the compound but chose the shelter instead? I hope they are getting help and in time will be able to help the authorities understand everything that went on as far as the abuse etc. These 6 women may be the only ones who in time can be reunited with their children, maybe they don't view them as a commodity but children worth fighting for.

VB

 

[FlowerChild]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force here. Everyone has their choice to do exactly what they would like. There is no force. And we want the children and they want us. They are clean and pure, and this is the worst thing that has happened to them. They are learning terrible things just from the questions that are being asked, things that they have never been exposed to.

"They are learning terrible things"? What Rape and waterboarding and silence weren't "terrible things" to learn? And not "I" want "my" children, but "we" - I have never heard one say I or me or my or even our....always "the children" and "they". It sounds like they've lost or misplaced a few rolls of barbwire or something.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And then, as you mentioned earlier, the judge says, Look, folks, if you want your children back, then the adult men and women from that ranch out in Eldorado have to go into Eldorado, go to the law enforcement center there, and they have to do those DNA swabs, as well. Otherwise, they have no chance of getting their children back.

And yet 2 men - and only 2 Men (no women), have shown up from the YFZ Ranch - one other man drove from 1200 miles away and he is no longer in the FLDS Church -- 437 kids and not a single MOTHER from the YFZ Ranch came for DNA testing by noon today


DON CRUTCHFIELD, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CONFESSIONS OF A HOLLYWOOD P.I.":As an investigator, somebody won`t even give me their last name, and of course, they got a picture of Warren Jeffs on the wall, you can forget it. And you can forget finding these guys. These guys are gone. The ones that are -- have the most risk.

Buenos Dios Amigos Y Amigas!

SUSAN ROESGEN: Got to say something about the toys. We've been told by a Warren Jeffs biographer, people who've studied his patterns and his rules there that he doesn't like toys, that he outlawed toys, that the only kind of toys he would let the kids have would be trampolines, and we know for a fact, Nancy, that when those children were taken here to the coliseum behind me, the volunteers who came to help the children and make them feel at home showed them crayons and the kids didn't even know what a crayon was.

WHY in heaven would you outlaw TOYS?? I mean geeze, what sin is there in crayons and paper and maybe a ball or a some blank blocks? How do you educate kids without giving them crayons or paper or a pencil?? Do you show them a PICTURE of a ball to illustrate round?

FLORA JESSOP: Right. And that`s because they live in a very -- such a controlled environment. They are slaves, they work in the fields, they don't play. Warren Jeffs forbid laughter, Warren Jeffs forbid crying babies, Warren Jeffs -- he controls every aspect of their lives. I have the complete family training tapes where he taught the girls what's expected of them as mothers and wives. And he teaches these women. Your husband will tell you how to wear your hair.

I get it, guess if you gave the poor tykes a toy or some crayons they might laugh out loud - or maybe forget to do a minute of the 10 hours of chores or something. And HOW in the WORLD do you stop and infant or a toddler from CRYING or "train" them not to cry as infants without some kind of horrible abuse?

MICHAEL BOARD, REPORTER, WOAI NEWSRADIO: The ones that have the most to lose, you`re right, they`re gone, they`re long gone.

Yep, I think so too...they're ALL long long gone - from YFZ, from AZ and UT and SD and CO --- Poof, and the FLDS-ers disappear like magic - oops, I forgot to bring the livestock - er, I mean "the" children (not MY children mind you, it's always "the" children) - you can replace every reference to the children with "the cows" and it still makes perfect sense, sounds like a report of lost or stolen cows on the daily radio farm report.

Fron Nancy Grace Transcript - EMPHASIS and Comments Mine
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/21/ng.01.html

 

[Vegas Bride]

hmmmm think about it, if a child had a crayon to color with, what does a child do? They color pictures of their family! If these children colored pictures of their family it might show daddy doing things no child should know about, and how many mothers brothers and sisters would the poor kid have to fit into the picture?

I hope when all is said and done that entire compound is leveled.

VB

 

[cheko1]

At no point have I heard anyone from the FLDS say that they loved there children.

If I thought I was going to loose one of my kids I'd of begged for mercy from the judge / lawyers / CPS etc To give me a DNA test ASAP, do whatever it took to keep my kids. I'd of been sobbing & so out of control. I would of been on my hands & knees begging to do whatever it took. They'd of been locking me up in the nutward.

No man, no church, no cult, no sister wife, could of ever kept me from my kids!

 

[cheko1]

A speaker on Nancy Grace suggested that the reason very few had the DNA tests was because the men & women knew they were NOT the parents of the children but taken from other compounds.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.kutv.com/content/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f117206f-d65f-4acb-a9b9-b0421f0f0539

Hateful and threatening remarks were spray-painted on the house of a Mormon family in Texas on Monday -- and the victims said they have no idea who is responsible.

Steve and Judy Coons noticed the graffiti on their home and automobile after they awoke early Monday, media reports said. Scrawled in red spray paint are the phrases, "Morman die!," "You will PAY," and "Watch your back."

ETA: Video at the below link:
LDS vs. FLDS: Mistaken Identities?

http://www.kutv.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=5

 

[GIRattlesnakeJane]

:banghead: I remember reading a true crime novel a long time ago about a similar compound in Mexico. They chose Mexico as the Morman Church in Utah had in essence turned their back on the polygamist group. It made the leader very mad and he had some of his followers kill some of the Mormans who had openly spoken out against them. When it looked like law enforcement was closing in on them they fled to Mexico and tried to make a similar compound as found in El Dorado. I cannot remember the name of the book.
Does anyone here remember reading about such a group in Mexico?

 

[Trino]

I wonder what's going on with the 6 women who did not go back to the compound but chose the shelter instead? I hope they are getting help and in time will be able to help the authorities understand everything that went on as far as the abuse etc. These 6 women may be the only ones who in time can be reunited with their children, maybe they don't view them as a commodity but children worth fighting for.

VB

The 6 left and went back to the compound.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9016035

A day after a Texas judge asked the LDS Church to help monitor prayer sessions of women and children from a fundamentalist polygamous group, a church spokesman said doing so would be inappropriate.
Scott Trotter, spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said that the church has heard about the judge's request only through news reports and therefore has "no clear understanding of what, if anything, we are being invited to do."
In an e-mail statement, Trotter said it would be "erroneous to base any request for assistance from members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the basis that our beliefs and practices are close to those of this polygamous group because they are not."
He also acknowledged that such a request would not be fair, either to the polygamous FLDS, which "long ago chose a different path from ours. In fact, many in these isolated communities view us with some hostility as part of the outside world they have rejected."

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