Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[SewingDeb]

If I understand correctly....
They already HAD (I believe) 18 in custody - add this to the new 25 that they have newly determined are ALSO under 18. 18 and 25 and thats 43 underage MOTHERS - either pregnant or with child in arms from the YFZ Ranch ALONE!.

Thanks FC. That makes sense.

 

[SewingDeb]

I agree with you, too, SCM about the parents and children being scrared but I'm sure that's true of parents and children even when the child has been tortured and starved and CPS has to step in.

I think TX has bent over backwards to make it as easy a transition as possible while they stort out who belongs to who. Have you ever heard of any other case where the parent (who may or may not be an abuser) is allowed to accompany the children when they leave the home with CPS?

While I can sympathize with these mothers, I don't see the parents as doing everything possible to get their children back. Denying your own children and asking them to lie rather than cooperate takes away from my sympathy.

 

[southcitymom]

I agree with you, too, SCM about the parents and children being scrared but I'm sure that's true of parents and children even when the child has been tortured and starved and CPS has to step in.

I think TX has bent over backwards to make it as easy a transition as possible while they stort out who belongs to who. Have you ever heard of any other case where the parent (who may or may not be an abuser) is allowed to accompany the children when they leave the home with CPS?

While I can sympathize with these mothers, I don't see the parents as doing everything possible to get their children back. Denying your own children and asking them to lie rather than cooperate takes away from my sympathy.

I do understand what you are saying, SewingDeb, though I think it misses the point of the persecution these people feel. Whether we agree with their lifestyle choice or not, these people feel like they are being persecuted and dismantled because of their religion. Again - I'm not saying that's true, but I don't think it takes much imagination to understand why they might feel that way.

I do not know what they know about why their compound was infiltrated and their families taken. Do they know it was because of a crank call? Might they feel that the government was just looking for an excuse to take over their lives? I'm not given to conspiracy theories as a rule, but if I were in their shoes, I think I would feel the same way.

In this link http://www.captivefldschildren.org/TimeLine.php there is an amazing timeline the FLDS have kept about these events. If even 1/4 of their claims of not being allowed to pray are true, one can see why they might think this whole thing is about religious persecution.

I hope they will find trust in and guidance from their attorneys. That's where I am placing most of my faith right now.

 

[barb0301]

Barb, among other charges some of them could be facing charges related to bigamy, what about failure to support? The women are on welfare and yet the man is still head of their household. Could they charge them with that?

Hi Molly ! Here in TX, from everything I can find out, they were not collecting welfare. It is very difficult to do so, and you must name the father of your children, etc. However, if they were, they definitely could go after the father for failure to support.

Someone does need to look and see if any of these women were still collecting benefits in Utah/Arizona though.

 

[barb0301]

Wow...........that's interesting! From the way it's worded, it sounds like 40 women opted to go to a shelter rather than be returned to the FLDS ranch. If that's true...........then we may have some adult women who have decided to leave the FLDS. And not just a handful, but 40 out of 47!

That's what it sounded like to me !! That would be a great start to making a new life and getting their children back. I'm sure services will be offered to them at the shelter to help them some.

 

[barb0301]

Guys:

Is it me, or does the call sound like it is from a white person, and not a black person. To me it sounds like there is no way possible that a black person made those calls.

Before I get my hackles up, I'd like to understand your reasoning behind this statement Ladybass? How can you discern between a "white" person and a "black" person's voice, sight unseen?

 

[golfmom]

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_9050315

In addition, he said CPS had identified 25 minor females who had represented themselves as adults. How that information changes the tally of who are children and who are adults is unknown.
Asked if investigators had found Sarah, the girl who made the telephone call to a crisis hot line that triggered the raid on April 3, Azar said he had no information on that. However, he added, "Once we got out to the ranch, we found a number of young ladies who were in the same condition as Sarah."
As to reports that at least one distress call came from a cell phone used by a Colorado Springs, Colo., woman with a history of making hoax calls, Azar said, "It doesn't matter whether this began as a hoax or not" because of what investigators found on the ranch.

 

[believe09]

I think this case is a travesty, personally, and hear me out. let me first state that I have absolutely no affiliation with any organized religion, but I am a person of strong faith.

Granted the state went in based on a phone call of yet unknown origin and found evidence of children in danger. In spite of the clearly increasingly dubious nature of that call, there is clearly a situation in the compound that needs to be sorted out-ie teenagers who are pregnant and possibly married below the age the law allows in TX.

That being said, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, after the dna swabs were taken, it is AT All justified to separate these women from their babies, further traumatizing these children who are already being exposed to food and a lifestyle that they know nothing about. WTF???? By all means, Texas, when you have the lowest rated schools in the country and the highest number of children without healthcare, spend millions of dollars overburdening the fostercare system with children who have established parents and are too young to have been victimized in the way the state is allegeding???

I don't buy it-I don't care if the women are not cooperating and are being obstructive-fine, charge them all once the parentage is sorted out for the children. WS'ers how many stories have we read here about foster parents who abuse the children in their care? These children are uniquely vulnerable having been raised so far from the world as we know it....it isn't right, it is atrocious and I would be picketing in TX if I did not live on the east coast.

 

[Pepper]

I understand your feelings, but I understand why they are handling it the way they are. They are trying to get at the truth, and keeping mothers and children together would only serve to intimidate the children further. It's not a pretty picture anyway it's portrayed, but I trust the trained professionals to handle this enormous burden in the best way possible.

 

[believe09]

Guys:

Is it me, or does the call sound like it is from a white person, and not a black person. To me it sounds like there is no way possible that a black person made those calls.

Lovely people, IMO I think we can let this comment go without getting nasty. Ladybass appears to be expressing what she is familiar with and personally I think enough said. Those of us with maybe wider experience realize that this stereotype does not actually hold up...

Peace

 

[believe09]

I understand your feelings, but I understand why they are handling it the way they are. They are trying to get at the truth, and keeping mothers and children together would only serve to intimidate the children further. It's not a pretty picture anyway it's portrayed, but I trust the trained professionals to handle this enormous burden in the best way possible.

:blowkiss:, Pepper and I respect your point of view.

However, I do not believe that we are talking about torture or something life threatening. I could somewhat see the the reasoning behind drawing the line at 5 years old and up, because children have achieved some kind of reason at that point and there is perhaps a chance that they could get an idea from the older children what life was like. But tell me what value an 18 month old is going to bring to the table??? I think that they are more likely to get a rash of false accusations from terrified children who will admit to anything so they can be reunited with their mothers....JMO.

 

[golfmom]

Lovely people, IMO I think we can let this comment go without getting nasty. Ladybass appears to be expressing what she is familiar with and personally I think enough said. Those of us with maybe wider experience realize that this stereotype does not actually hold up...

Peace

I don't believe I got nasty in my reply. I just felt strongly that I couldn't let such a comment go by without expressing how upsetting it was to me personally.

 

[SewingDeb]

I do understand what you are saying, SewingDeb, though I think it misses the point of the persecution these people feel. Whether we agree with their lifestyle choice or not, these people feel like they are being persecuted and dismantled because of their religion. Again - I'm not saying that's true, but I don't think it takes much imagination to understand why they might feel that way.

I do not know what they know about why their compound was infiltrated and their families taken. Do they know it was because of a crank call? Might they feel that the government was just looking for an excuse to take over their lives? I'm not given to conspiracy theories as a rule, but if I were in their shoes, I think I would feel the same way.

In this link http://www.captivefldschildren.org/TimeLine.php there is an amazing timeline the FLDS have kept about these events. If even 1/4 of their claims of not being allowed to pray are true, one can see why they might think this whole thing is about religious persecution.

I hope they will find trust in and guidance from their attorneys. That's where I am placing most of my faith right now.

I'm sure I would feel the same way if I were in their shoes. They have been consideration above and beyond most CPS investigations. Mothers are separated from their babies every day in this county when CPS intervenes. Is it right? I don't know. This case may bring huge changes in the way CPS is allowed to swoop in and take children away.

They do have attorneys to advise them. Many parents don't or can't afford a good one. The children also have representatives. It will be sorted out but it may not be to the FLDS' liking. I just pray this brings a brighter future for these children.

 

[Pepper]

:blowkiss:, Pepper and I respect your point of view.

However, I do not believe that we are talking about torture or something life threatening. I could somewhat see the the reasoning behind drawing the line at 5 years old and up, because children have achieved some kind of reason at that point and there is perhaps a chance that they could get an idea from the older children what life was like. But tell me what value an 18 month old is going to bring to the table??? I think that they are more likely to get a rash of false accusations from terrified children who will admit to anything so they can be reunited with their mothers....JMO.

But we don't know that torture and life threatening situations don't exist.
There have been reports of waterboarding infants to teach them not to cry.
There have been reports of deformed babies being drowned.
There have been reports of children locked in closets and being deprived food and water for their disobedience.

These situations have been described by the women who have fled the FLDS and other similar polygamous sects. Until the CPS can investigate thoroughly, we don't know that these atrocities aren't happening now within the FLDS.

And I also respect your POV. I just think it is hard to pass judgment as an outside observer. There is probably much we aren't aware of, and for the present I want to trust the experts that they are doing the right thing.

 

[Mygirlsadie]

I wouldn't let ladybass's comment offend any of you. I understand what she meant. My neighbor who is black always tells me I am so white lol..I'm like yep I am white! It's all in good fun no harm done. Just like when I am around her I can ''mock'' the way she talks and it just makes her laugh and that is usually when she tells me how white I am. I can totally tell someone's race over the phone just by the way they talk.

 

[golfmom]

Time and time again, the members within the sect have lied when it suited their needs. I just have a hard time taking anything they say at face value.

 

[SewingDeb]

Golfmom, are you referring to the ones who have fled the FLDS or the ones involved in this case? (Concerning lying)

 

[golfmom]

I wouldn't let ladybass's comment offend any of you. I understand what she meant. My neighbor who is black always tells me I am so white lol..I'm like yep I am white! It's all in good fun no harm done. Just like when I am around her I can ''mock'' the way she talks and it just makes her laugh and that is usually when she tells me how white I am. I can totally tell someone's race over the phone just by the way they talk.

Not all blacks speak in the stereotypical slang. I know lots of people who you would never be able to identify their race by their speech alone.

You can't talk a color.

 

[golfmom]

Golfmom, are you referring to the ones who have fled the FLDS or the ones involved in this case? (Concerning lying)

I was specifically referring to the current members. Utah and Arizona have lots of experience eliciting promises and agreements from this group which quickly fall apart. It just seems to me that they say anything in the moment and then do/say whatever they want.

 

[Vegas Bride]

I don't know how many babies there are now, it's been said that atleast 1 has been born since the raid and there are other pregnant girls so we can assume there will be more births happening. I'm hoping that with these new births the tide will turn, the new babies will be allowed to cry when they have a need, rather than being put under water to "train" them. I think that is a wonderful thing!

VB