Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[LinasK]

You know, it never amazes me, a comment that was not made to be racist, people take it that way! Never ceases to amaze me!

That's okay, Ladybass, I am not the only poster here who knew what you meant. Your whole point of the question was to try and determine if the initial caller was Rozita Swinton- a black woman, or Sarah Barlow, a white girl. I still think that race can sometimes be determined by voice characteristics alone. That is not being racist.:blowkiss:

 

[golfmom]

The thing about non-profits is that they can be well hidden. You need to know the exact name and location to track them.

 

[golfmom]

That's okay, Ladybass, I am not the only poster here who knew what you meant. Your whole point of the question was to try and determine if the initial caller was Rozita Swinton- a black woman, or Sarah Barlow, a white girl. I still think that race can sometimes be determined by voice characteristics alone. That is not being racist.:blowkiss:

Sometimes is a big difference from always, and that's really what I was disputing.

 

[LinasK]

You ASKED me what my concerns were. I replied by posing questions as to why I don't think that it's universally possible for race to be determined by speech alone. I NEVER implied YOU said ANYTHING. I NEVER attributed any of the questions or concerns I had to YOU personally.

Now you've come back on and IMPLIED that's exactly what I did.

Okay, then I stand corrected in your case, but that's exactly what LindaNJ7 and Trino did!

 

[Truly]

That's a great point! Who's performing the "legal" marriages of that sect?? If it's someone like Jeffs, does he have a license to perform them?

And in order to obtain a license, does the applicant agree to abide by the laws of the State of Texas, i.e., not to marry dozens of underage girls to one old man?

 

[mollymalone]

Some of the women are as entrenched in this lifestyle as the men, unless this was an attempt to get brownie points. He had umpteen wives and she wants to sacrifice her own child to him. Sad.

http://www.kcpw.org/article/1618

"In fact we've been able to intercept an email communication from a loyal follower claiming that their 'beloved prophet, their angel in Christ,' in their words, is being persecuted unfairly," reports Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. "One woman said she'd still love to have her daughter marry him and they [FLDS members] need to stand in support of him in this persecution."

 

[mollymalone]

And in order to obtain a license, does the applicant agree to abide by the laws of the State of Texas, i.e., not to marry dozens of underage girls to one old man?

That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

 

[LinasK]

Fair enough! I just wanted to know if we feel police are following the wrong person for the "calls" I believe that SARAH is a real person!

I do too and think they should keep looking for her, because the FLDS may have her hidden away or have killed her. I think Rozita Swinton just injected herself into this case much like Mark Karr did in the JonBenet Ramsey case and had everyone believing he was the killer.:doh:

 

[golfmom]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/apr/16/opinions-differ-flds-classification/

But neither the FLDS nor the YFZ Ranch — scene of suspected child sexual and physical abuse — has filed for status as a nonprofit organization with the IRS, an IRS spokesman said.

In Schleicher County, records reflect the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, has not requested an exemption from property taxes as a religious organization, an option for qualifying property.

The YFZ Ranch’s property tax tab adds up to $1 million from 2004 when the sect first began paying property taxes through 2007, according to the Schleicher County Appraisal District.

The tax bill raises the question of how the compound is being funded. So far, answers are scant.

Whatever the taxman’s viewpoint, an expert on Mormon splinter groups considers FLDS a church.

................
A constitutional law professor agreed FLDS is a church.

But Douglas Laycock of the University of Michigan didn’t think FLDS’s status as a church would make any difference in court or in determining whether the raid on the sect in Schleicher County was lawful.

“If there’s probable cause, the government can search churches like anyplace else,” Laycock said.

 

[golfmom]

That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

Just posing the question here, but why exactly do they need a marriage license. They view their marriages sanctioned by their prophet. Why would they care what the state says? There's more reasons for them not to get marriage licenses than not.

 

[Trino]

Okay, then I stand corrected in your case, but that's exactly what LindaNJ7 and Trino did!

Back to the case. It's fairly obviously that RS, although Black, had the hot line fooled. RS most likely did not speak Black English.

 

[Seven]

"there was an actual graveyard of the babies who had died shortly after childbirth, from an illness they get from inbreeding."

I heard about this earlier this week. It's a birth defect that results from a recessive gene on the first chromosome known as "fumarase deficiency." It's deficiency of the protein needed to convert nutrition in to nourishment, and it's effects can be devastating.

"In the 1930s, two families, the Jessops and the Barlows, settled the area around Hildale, Utah, along the border with Arizona, where they founded the FDLS — and began handing down to their descendants a recessive gene for a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency. The birth defect has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist, now retired but formerly with the Children's Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix. He saw his first case when an FLDS mother brought her severely retarded son to see him. Tarby asked the mother whether any of her other children had problems, and she mentioned a daughter with cerebral palsy — testing proved that she, too, had Fumarase Deficiency syndrome.

The birth defect — an enzyme deficiency — causes severe mental retardation, epilepsy and disfigurement of features. "The retardation is in the severe range — an IQ around 25," Dr. Tarby says. Afflicted children are missing portions of their brain, often cannot sit or stand, and suffer grand mal seizures and encephalitis. Language skills are nonexistent or minimal."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1732498,00.html

Sad.

 

[Truly]

I thought they were for profit-didn't something come out about Jeffs holding government contracts with his factory??

Polygamist sect gets millions from U.S. Government in loans, contracts
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1354729

The firms were owned by members, and all of the proceeds were funnelled into the pockets of the leaders of the cult. I do not know if the FLDS operated their massive empire directly or not. They had their own concrete plant in Texas, and they had applied to operate as their own water treatment plant. I'd love to see those documents.

 

[southcitymom]

...... HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion"......

Who's saying this? Is anyone?

 

[mollymalone]

Just posing the question here, but why exactly do they need a marriage license. They view their marriages sanctioned by their prophet. Why would they care what the state says? There's more reasons for them not to get marriage licenses than not.

Good question!! Perhaps so that their legal male children could inherit and there'd be no questions? The only ones seeming to have birth certificates seem to be those who were "legally" married to one of those high ranking within the sect.

 

[mysteriew]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.

 

[LinasK]

OK, I wish everyone would please stop with the whole "sounds like" or not thing. It either SOUNDS LIKE the woman accused or not - and we aren't going to find that answer HERE! It doesn't MATTER, the courts have already said the children were removed because of what they observed after paying a visit to try and locate "Sarah". They were on the property to CHECK OUT a complaint and found other problems...for which they got a 2nd COURT ORDER. THE END!

There were almost 50 underage pregnant girls and underage mothers with a child or children at the YFZ Ranch ALONE. There are no doubt MORE of them elsewhere - and we still have NO PROOF which children at the YFZ Ranch BELONG biologically to which MOTHERS OR FATHERS (if they belong to ANY of the adults). THIS IS A PROBLEM! Adult MEN are having sex with CHILDREN (teenagers) and impregnating them - almost 50 that WE KNOW OF. I do not see how WE or CPS can ignore that FACT and suggest it doesn't matter and should just be put aside for the benefit of the "Group" their religion or their beliefs/lifestyle. This many underage mothers in a group of say 600 (462 of which are CHLDREN under 18) people is not a "fluke" or a misunderstanding - nor did this occur because of ignorance of human reproduction or because the real age of the girls was unknown. BEFORE these girls were impregnated every single one of them was sealed in plural celestial marriage inside that "temple" with the bed inside to a MAN - AN ADULT MAN. And we KNOW that a sex act DID OCCUR - because they become pregnant. HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion".

It should NEVER be acceptable to hide SEX CRIMES behind a smokescreen of God or faith - and that's what the FLDS would LIKE us all to do - just look the other way and allow them to go about their lives and continue teaching young girls to "be sweet" and obey their fathers and husbands so they can all get into heaven.

If THAT'S really heaven, I'll just have to pass.

My Opinion

FlowerChild, unlike the ANS forum, in this case I am in total agreement with you.

 

[mysteriew]

Good question!! Perhaps so that their legal male children could inherit and there'd be no questions? The only ones seeming to have birth certificates seem to be those who were "legally" married to one of those high ranking within the sect.

What can they inherit? They don't 'own', everything they have or receive is 'owned' by the church- including their wives and children.

 

[SewingDeb]

Who's saying this? Is anyone?

Lots of people on the internet are saying it is religious persecution and they should have been left alone.

 

[mollymalone]

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.

The contracts were not awarded to the flds church but to individual businesses. Those were owned by people who were/are FLDS members. The contracts are awarded according to bid, not based on your religious affiliation. I'm sure that now they're aware of the fact that the money gets funneled to the flds leaders who make up the "church" then there might be a review of how the contracts funds are being used. The companies may no longer be approved for contracts, but in reality the defense dept. cannot discriminated based on religion.