Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

[Truly]

I have a question. The government doesn't/can't or severely limits giving federal funds to a religious organization. The law is really big on that. Meaning church schools, day cares, soup kitchens, community centers and so forth.

How about contracts? Can the feds contract with a religous organization? As in defense contracts? I mean, we know the FLDS has held government contracts. But if they claim to be a religous organization, is it legal for them to hold the contracts? If it is illegal for the church to be a contract agency with the feds, then I think the FLDS should not be viewed as a church.

The contracts were actually with businesses owned by FLDS members, who would then hand the money to the cult leaders. Western Precision (renamed NewEra Manufacturing) had 1.1 million in defense contracts between 2003-2007!

 

[mollymalone]

What can they inherit? They don't 'own', everything they have or receive is 'owned' by the church- including their wives and children.

Right, but people like Warren Jeffs and his "leaders" I believe would have tucked away money for themselves outside of the communal funds. Inherit the "priesthood" or seats on councils etc.. is more what I was thinking of.

 

[mollymalone]

On the contracts - since information is coming to light that the use of underage boys were used in violation of child labor laws I would suspect that those contracts would be in review and those companies fined. I'm not sure whether they could place them on a list stating that these companies should not be awarded contracts based on this or that the monies go to support what the Southern Law Poverty center has deemed a "hate group."

 

[southcitymom]

Lots of people on the internet are saying it is religious persecution and they should have been left alone.

Do you mind telling me where?

ETA - Nevermind, I'll go find!

 

[mysteriew]

Right, but people like Warren Jeffs and his "leaders" I believe would have tucked away money for themselves outside of the communal funds. Inherit the "priesthood" or seats on councils etc.. is more what I was thinking of.

I hadn't considered that. Like the children of wives 2 through whatever couldn't ever become a leader. But why make even the first a legal marriage? After all, they don't recognize the state's statutes on marriage anyway. The fact that their 'prophet' approved the marriage, and sealed them seems to be all the FLDS considers important. So why make the first marriage a legal, state recognized marriage? If it wasn't state sanctioned, wouldn't the FLDS still recognize it and give the same considerations? As far as inheritance goes, the 'first wife' would still be recognized as such within the community.

 

[FlowerChild]

That too! Wouldn't that be interesting to see? Who's name is on the license performing those marriages. I can't see them going to the JP. They had LE who were FLDS that did their bidding over their oaths, so why not other officials? There's a prominent lawyer in Nevada named Kingston, and he's FLDS and runs the Kingston clan.

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just in a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "temple" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Originally Posted by FlowerChild
OK, I wish everyone would please stop with the whole "sounds like" or not thing. It either SOUNDS LIKE the woman accused or not - and we aren't going to find that answer HERE! It doesn't MATTER, the courts have already said the children were removed because of what they observed after paying a visit to try and locate "Sarah". They were on the property to CHECK OUT a complaint and found other problems...for which they got a 2nd COURT ORDER. THE END!

There were almost 50 underage pregnant girls and underage mothers with a child or children at the YFZ Ranch ALONE. There are no doubt MORE of them elsewhere - and we still have NO PROOF which children at the YFZ Ranch BELONG biologically to which MOTHERS OR FATHERS (if they belong to ANY of the adults). THIS IS A PROBLEM! Adult MEN are having sex with CHILDREN (teenagers) and impregnating them - almost 50 that WE KNOW OF. I do not see how WE or CPS can ignore that FACT and suggest it doesn't matter and should just be put aside for the benefit of the "Group" their religion or their beliefs/lifestyle. This many underage mothers in a group of say 600 (462 of which are CHLDREN under 18) people is not a "fluke" or a misunderstanding - nor did this occur because of ignorance of human reproduction or because the real age of the girls was unknown. BEFORE these girls were impregnated every single one of them was sealed in plural celestial marriage inside that "temple" with the bed inside to a MAN - AN ADULT MAN. And we KNOW that a sex act DID OCCUR - because they become pregnant. HOW can any rational adult sane person look at this and say it's excusable, acceptable or something we should just "ignore" because it's "none of our business" or might be misconstrued as "persecution of religion".

It should NEVER be acceptable to hide SEX CRIMES behind a smokescreen of God or faith - and that's what the FLDS would LIKE us all to do - just look the other way and allow them to go about their lives and continue teaching young girls to "be sweet" and obey their fathers and husbands so they can all get into heaven.

If THAT'S really heaven, I'll just have to pass.

My Opinion


Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you it is NEVER acceptable. What I was trying to figure out is whether the authorities are going to take the wrong road out of this! I just hope that they are looking for sarah and not just simply relying and assuming that it was a hoax call. I am certainly not saying anything about the way the search warrents were handled. I fully agree with what law enforcement and CPS have done. I just don't want the authorities to give up on locating sarah, in case she really is out there and in trouble.

 

[mollymalone]

I hadn't considered that. Like the children of wives 2 through whatever couldn't ever become a leader. But why make even the first a legal marriage? After all, they don't recognize the state's statutes on marriage anyway. The fact that their 'prophet' approved the marriage, and sealed them seems to be all the FLDS considers important. So why make the first marriage a legal, state recognized marriage? If it wasn't state sanctioned, wouldn't the FLDS still recognize it and give the same considerations? As far as inheritance goes, the 'first wife' would still be recognized as such within the community.

:waitasec: I would think they would, but it seems the first one is done legally for some reason. Could it be because before the Flds split from the Mormon church that it was done that way? Or did they ditch that along with the other teachings they didn't agree with?

 

[mollymalone]

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just lin a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "tempe" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

Yes, I understand, that's in regards to the other wives, (and they do seal the first wife also right?) we're wondering about the "legal" marriage to the first wives. Our question is, if they don't follow or believe in our laws, why would they have a "legal" first wife? Why not marry her spiritually like they do the others? And who would perform the "legal" marriage?

 

[southcitymom]

Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you it is NEVER acceptable. What I was trying to figure out is whether the authorities are going to take the wrong road out of this! I just hope that they are looking for sarah and not just simply relying and assuming that it was a hoax call. I am certainly not saying anything about the way the search warrents were handled. I fully agree with what law enforcement and CPS have done. I just don't want the authorities to give up on locating sarah, in case she really is out there and in trouble.

They might have taken the wrong road in, Ladybass. I'm interested about the hearing next Tuesday regarding the lengthy Motion questioning a number of facts surrounding the warrants. Some real mistakes may have been made. If this is the case, any hope that possible child molesters will be punished declines.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Merrill Jessop has hired an attorny

http://myeldorado.net/

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/003469.html
According to a study sponsored by the American Academy of Arts and Science, communities organized around the fundamentalist agenda have five defining characteristics:

There is one set of rules and every human being must be subject to those rules. In FLDS that man is Warren Jeffs.

Men are the rightful rulers and women are totally subservient to them. Women are defined as obedient wives, homemakers and mothers.

Fundamentalists control education and define what will be taught because there is only one right way to think.
Fundamentalists hate the modern world and aspire to a golden age, one that never existed.

**Warren Jeffs sister Elaine stated that she thinks this is what Warren is trying to attain... a perfect people.**

Several of the scholars observed a strong and deep resemblance between fundamentalism and fascism. Both have almost identical agendas. Men are on top, women are subservient, there is one rigid set of rules, with police and military might to enforce them, and education is tightly controlled by the state. One scholar suggested that it's helpful to understand fundamentalism as religious fascism, and fascism as political fundamentalism. The phrase “overcoming the modern” is a fascist slogan dating back to at least 1941.

Finally, fundamentalists are disconnected from reality and unable to examine their own history in an objective or non-mythical manner.

 

[Truly]

I'm quoting myself only because it seems that this was missed. It appears that neither FLDS / YFZ has filed for non-profit status. However, I have some experience with non-profit organizations and know that they can be hidden under a non-related name and in other people's names. So, it may be that no one's uncovered a non-profit rather than there is no non-profit.

Yes, thank you, I remember reading that article. So it seems as if it is a matter of personal opinion whether to call them a church or not. If they are on file as a non profit hidden under another name, then maybe we should be calling them the 'Allred Construction Company Church', as that is who showed up in Texas to purchase the YFZ property. I wonder whose name is on the deed. That is open public record.

 

[Fairy1]

Do you mind telling me where?

ETA - Nevermind, I'll go find!

I've seen plenty of this opinion in the news also. I feel quite certain the FLDS is banking on this sentiment to get LE and CPS to leave them alone. This is what worries me - along with the sheer magnitude of the situation. I completely understand the concern people have with regard to the well-being of the children now in state custody. Truth be told, CPS all over the US leaves something to be desired. With that said, let's please give the state and people of TX a chance to do the right thing. No one wants to see children "torn" away from their families. But the truth is, there is strong evidence that these children are abused is some manner. None of us should be willing to stand by and allow it to continue. I'm not going to subscribe to the philosophy that the "devil you know is better than the devil you don't know" or however the saying goes. This case is unique and I'm confident that it will require a lot of thinking outside of the box. I personally do not care from whom the phone call that began this investigation originated. And I do not believe it will matter in the end. The FLDS needs to be stopped - and the sooner the better.

As an aside (sort of), can we PLEASE drop this racial discussion? This case is complicated enough and the whole black/white thing is an unnecessary distraction and totally off-topic.

 

[galvino]

Molly-

You have provided GREAT links on here- I have been reading and researching fast & furiously- so much so that my head is spinning. Between all of the intermarriage and subterfuge, financial issues and history, I need a flowchart to keep even a portion of all this straight. I have ordered several books from Amazon now. I wonder if any Universities in the US teach about this cult/'religion' in their curriculum (sp?)? They would have to devote many semesters on them- in all areas (psych/religion/poly-sci etc, ad nauseum).

Funny how in school I groaned about having to spend alot of time researching- now I'm like a kid in a candy store and I want to find out everything I can! I hope I am not the only one, b/c even tho there have been a small minority of folks who have spoken out about this sect, I venture to guess it has fallen on deaf ears for the most part, unless the listeners were being directly affected, or were regionally interested.

I Pray, Pray, Pray that those who aren't directly affected by this nightmare will (because of the scale of this latest debacle) will not allow this to be swept under the rug again.


Did you read the 2nd post (by Joseph) under that last link you provided? Very Interestink!

 

[LinasK]

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/003469.html
According to a study sponsored by the American Academy of Arts and Science, communities organized around the fundamentalist agenda have five defining characteristics:

There is one set of rules and every human being must be subject to those rules. In FLDS that man is Warren Jeffs.

Men are the rightful rulers and women are totally subservient to them. Women are defined as obedient wives, homemakers and mothers.

Fundamentalists control education and define what will be taught because there is only one right way to think.
Fundamentalists hate the modern world and aspire to a golden age, one that never existed.

**Warren Jeffs sister Elaine stated that she thinks this is what Warren is trying to attain... a perfect people.**

Several of the scholars observed a strong and deep resemblance between fundamentalism and fascism. Both have almost identical agendas. Men are on top, women are subservient, there is one rigid set of rules, with police and military might to enforce them, and education is tightly controlled by the state. One scholar suggested that it's helpful to understand fundamentalism as religious fascism, and fascism as political fundamentalism. The phrase “overcoming the modern” is a fascist slogan dating back to at least 1941.

Finally, fundamentalists are disconnected from reality and unable to examine their own history in an objective or non-mythical manner.

That's what the phrase "Keep Sweet" really means=obedience!

 

[galvino]

Oops-

The comment by Joseph was in Molly's next to last post- It took me too long to type with my broken wrist and she was too fast for me!

 

[mollymalone]

Merrill Jessop has hired an attorny

http://myeldorado.net/

Despite the fact that criminal charges haven't been filed against him. He's hired a "criminal defense attorney."

 

[southcitymom]

I've seen plenty of this opinion in the news also. I feel quite certain the FLDS is banking on this sentiment to get LE and CPS to leave them alone. This is what worries me - along with the sheer magnitude of the situation....

I have found some support of the FLDS rights, but no one saying we should allow children to be abused in the name of those rights!

I am glad for it honestly (people speaking up for the FLDS). It helps keep the scales balanced and gives people in a position of great authority over the personal lives of others added incentive to "do right." The FLDS may not be enjoying much freedom right now, but thank goodness some of us still are.

 

[Fairy1]

You do understand that "sealing" in a Plural Celestial Marriage" isn't "legal" outside the FLDS. They don't really "marry" these girls legally, (That would be illegal BIGAMY) just in a "spiritual way". They marry only ONE wife legally - the rest are just wives in THEIR RELIGION. And yes, they do it at YFZ in that "temple" they built and ANY of the Apostles or Bishops in their religion can perform the ceremony - which, if it's like the LDS temple marriage, is HOURS long and rather complicated. They don't HAVE to do it in the temple tho - they can do this "sealing" anywhere - in a hotel room (like Warren Jeffs did and got put in prison for). It's a marriage in name only - not legal in ANY WAY and isn't recognized outside the church - which is why all the mothers are getting WIC and food stamps - out here in the infidel world - these are single mothers with no job, husband or support...

My Opinion

On the face of it FC, that is true. However, it's been stated here that the state of Texas recognizes "common law" marriages. If, in fact, the plural marriages are considered to be legal, perhaps TX can charge these folks with polygomy....