Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police

[Glow]

What do you see happening here, Glow?

I see a cult with armed guards wearing night vision goggles preventing anyone from entering or exiting. I see aged pedophiles forcing young girls to break the laws of the State of Texas by forcing them to marry their own fathers and uncles before the girls have even reached the age of legal consent.

I see busloads of young girls. What has become of all the young boys? I have read that the boys are taken and dropped off in the desert so that the creepy old pedophiles can rape and impregnate all of the young girls without any young men around to interfere. I have read that they expel the young boys and only permit them to return when they have brought back their own 'first wife' from the 'outside world'. I read that the pedophile-in-chief can then expel the young man again and 'reassign' his new wife and her children to one of the creepy old pedophiles.

What exactly bothers you about this? Is it the fact that the Pedophile Cult calls itself a 'religion'?

I am all about civil liberties. But this is a case of pedophiles holding children in armed compounds for the purpose of using them as sexual slaves. Nothing could be done to help the kids until someone who was harmed came forth. Then the warrants were issued and the search proceeded according to law.

What precedent are you concerned about setting here? Did you object when Shawn Hornbeck was rescued from his sexually abusive captor? To me, it is similar. The kids cannot escape on their own, and they deserve to be rescued from pedophiles.

What do you see happening here, Glow?

* What I see happening is people who are already generally frustrated finding a "focus" for their frustration



I see a cult with armed guards wearing night vision goggles preventing anyone from entering or exiting. I see aged pedophiles forcing young girls to break the laws of the State of Texas by forcing them to marry their own fathers and uncles before the girls have even reached the age of legal consent.

*I agree. The thing we have to remember is that even the mother of Jesus was 13 or 14 when she "conceived" and dont you and others celebrate that every December?


I see busloads of young girls. What has become of all the young boys? I have read that the boys are taken and dropped off in the desert so that the creepy old pedophiles can rape and impregnate all of the young girls without any young men around to interfere. I have read that they expel the young boys and only permit them to return when they have brought back their own 'first wife' from the 'outside world'. I read that the pedophile-in-chief can then expel the young man again and 'reassign' his new wife and her children to one of the creepy old pedophiles.

*Yes. I can say the same thing..."i have read" but where did I read it from? Did I read it from a non biased publication or news source?


What exactly bothers you about this?

*The fact that this can start on the fringe of society and then move inward to more and more traditional groups. The fact that we give "government the moral right to "think" for us as people. That is what concerns me.

Is it the fact that the Pedophile Cult calls itself a 'religion'?

*No


I am all about civil liberties. But this is a case of pedophiles holding children in armed compounds for the purpose of using them as sexual slaves. Nothing could be done to help the kids until someone who was harmed came forth. Then the warrants were issued and the search proceeded according to law.

*We dont know if the person who called was harmed. We assume that to be the case and we all at this point act on that asumption.


What precedent are you concerned about setting here?

*The fact that the government that we are supposedly in charge of can violate its own law to do what is emotionally deemed appropriate in the moment.

Did you object when Shawn Hornbeck was rescued from his sexually abusive captor?

*No I did not. There was enough evidence and the "people" were involved and this was a garden variety PERV, not a religious group with roots that stretch back thousands of years.

The kids cannot escape on their own, and they deserve to be rescued from pedophiles.

I agree with you completely on this statement.

 

[Glow]

The armored vehicles were brought in when it became apparent that there may become a time when a standoff occurred over the LE entering the temple. At that point SWAT was brought in and things were very tense. There was no telling how it was going to go. By not allowing them to search the temple, they were in violation of a court ordered search warrant. It eventually ended peacefully, with the SWAT guys using the Jaws of Life to enter the Temple, but it could have been so much worse.

So the armored car came only when the occupants of the compound began to threaten non-compliance with the court ordered search warrant.

I thought that the search warrant was for a named individual. So that would negate any right to enter a building. Especially a building deemed as "Holy" by its worshipers.

To illustrate my point...if an armored car was sent to crash through the doors of a Catholic church IE; (a holy building) people would be enraged. Why is it different if we dont agree with the people it is happening to?

 

[Truly]

I guess perhaps I am. What I mean is whatever is wrong at that compound was wrong the day before the 16 year old called. LE knew that there were things wrong...heck the whole town knew..that is one reason they are coming out in support with blankets and food and so on.

I would never condone children being abused, but if we move away from that hot button issue for just a moment, what does it mean when one phone call can bring an armored vehicle on to your property? What is that?

Let me state again that I dont disagree with rescuing the women and children who are involved. I am only trying to open a discussion about what role the government plays in this.

LE cannot legally act until after a crime is committed and a person who was harmed, ie, an actual victim of the crime, steps forward to file a complaint. CPS probably has a lot more leeway if they feel a child is in imminent peril. In this instance, the police knew they were dealing with armed and possibly desperate cult leaders...and they also had hundreds of child victims to protect. An armored vehicle and some comfortable buses seem like sensible vehicles to arrive with.

Glow, I am interested in hearing what role you think government plays in this? I think that child abuse is often pushed to the back burner on lawmakers agendas because children have no power or money and cannot vote. I think that crimes against children are swept under the rug more often than not because the perpetrators have big bucks and a powerful position in society. I am not terribly concerned about the implications of this situation, but you clearly are, so...please explain what it is that you are concerned about. Nobody wants a police state, I totally get that. But I am not understanding what you think LE should have done. Thanks.

 

[Truly]

What do you see happening here, Glow?

* What I see happening is people who are already generally frustrated finding a "focus" for their frustration



I see a cult with armed guards wearing night vision goggles preventing anyone from entering or exiting. I see aged pedophiles forcing young girls to break the laws of the State of Texas by forcing them to marry their own fathers and uncles before the girls have even reached the age of legal consent.

*I agree. The thing we have to remember is that even the mother of Jesus was 13 or 14 when she "conceived" and dont you and others celebrate that every December?


I see busloads of young girls. What has become of all the young boys? I have read that the boys are taken and dropped off in the desert so that the creepy old pedophiles can rape and impregnate all of the young girls without any young men around to interfere. I have read that they expel the young boys and only permit them to return when they have brought back their own 'first wife' from the 'outside world'. I read that the pedophile-in-chief can then expel the young man again and 'reassign' his new wife and her children to one of the creepy old pedophiles.

*Yes. I can say the same thing..."i have read" but where did I read it from? Did I read it from a non biased publication or news source?


What exactly bothers you about this?

*The fact that this can start on the fringe of society and then move inward to more and more traditional groups. The fact that we give "government the moral right to "think" for us as people. That is what concerns me.

Is it the fact that the Pedophile Cult calls itself a 'religion'?

*No


I am all about civil liberties. But this is a case of pedophiles holding children in armed compounds for the purpose of using them as sexual slaves. Nothing could be done to help the kids until someone who was harmed came forth. Then the warrants were issued and the search proceeded according to law.

*We dont know if the person who called was harmed. We assume that to be the case and we all at this point act on that asumption.


What precedent are you concerned about setting here?

*The fact that the government that we are supposedly in charge of can violate its own law to do what is emotionally deemed appropriate in the moment.

Did you object when Shawn Hornbeck was rescued from his sexually abusive captor?

*No I did not. There was enough evidence and the "people" were involved and this was a garden variety PERV, not a religious group with roots that stretch back thousands of years.

The kids cannot escape on their own, and they deserve to be rescued from pedophiles.

I agree with you completely on this statement.

Whoa. Um. So... you see a difference between religious pervs with roots stretching back thousands of years vs. 'garden variety' pervs?

And you think that the 'garden variety perverts' are worse than the 'religious perverts who have been assaulting kids for thousands of years'? Holy chit. I am at a loss for words.

 

[barb0301]

I thought that the search warrant was for a named individual. So that would negate any right to enter a building. Especially a building deemed as "Holy" by its worshipers.

To illustrate my point...if an armored car was sent to crash through the doors of a Catholic church IE; (a holy building) people would be enraged. Why is it different if we dont agree with the people it is happening to?

The search warrant was for the girl, the man, and any and all documents pertaining to the marriage and child. The judge also allowed CPS workers to go into the compound to talk to the occupants. CPS workers do not need a judge to do this - they need a citizen complaint, which they had already. The judge arranged LE protection and coordination.

When a complaint comes in to CPS that they deem a child is in imminent danger, they must make contact with that child to determine what is going on. They HAD to go into the compound to contact her. At the same time, they have leeway to talk to her family and friends to see how she is, how she has been treated, etc. Same as in any other child abuse investigation. As they begin their investigation "something" happened that led them to believe that none of the children were safe at the compound, and the judge said for all of them to be removed in order for the interviews to be continued away from the compound. Again - nothing any different from any other child abuse case.

So now, we have LE looking for the evidence cited in the search warrant, and it can't be found. Leaders refuse to allow them access to the temple. LE brings in equipment, including medical, in case something drastic happens, and heavy equipment to break down the doors of the temple if necessary. Again, nothing "illegal" - they have a legal search warrant for the entire compound, including the temple, and are now being refused entry. Same thing would happen if parishioners of my Methodist Church refused LE access to it and they had a search warrant. Especially if the rest of the scenario was the same.

I don't see this as any different than any other crime scene. It is what it is. A possible (probable), crime scene. It just happens to be at a large religious site. A crime perpetrated on "religious" property is still a crime. And the investigatiion into that crime is going to happen the same way any other crime is investigated.

They can't hide behind their religion. Nor could I, nor could you, nor anyone else here.

 

[barb0301]

I thought that the search warrant was for a named individual. So that would negate any right to enter a building. .

The "ARREST warrant" was for a named individual.
The "SEARCH warrant" was for the entire compound, includng all buildings, temple included.

 

[Pepper]

Did you object when Shawn Hornbeck was rescued from his sexually abusive captor?

*No I did not. There was enough evidence and the "people" were involved and this was a garden variety PERV, not a religious group with roots that stretch back thousands of years.
.

I disagree with the part I have bolded. This group does not have roots that stretch back thousands of years. The mainstream Mormon religion was founded in 1820. This fundamentalist cult broke off from the LDS in 1890. There is much controversy over whether or not Mormons are Christian due to their belief in polytheism. Therefore their roots only go back less than 200 years.

 

[Truly]

I disagree with the part I have bolded. This group does not have roots that stretch back thousands of years. The mainstream Mormon religion was founded in 1820. This fundamentalist cult broke off from the LDS in 1890. There is much controversy over whether or not Mormons are Christian due to their belief in polytheism. Therefore their roots only go back less than 200 years.

Yes, pepper, as i understand it, the regular mormons only gave up the practice of child sexual assault in 1890 as a condition for Utah to be accepted as a State. This offshoot morman cult has continued it since 1890! A single instance of child sexual assault is enough to demand police and CPS. These sick freaks have been hiding out in their armed compounds abusing kids for far too long. If the cult went by any other name, I would feel the same way. They are not permitted to break the law and violate children just because they call themselves a 'religion'. What a bunch of sick perverts. I hope they prosecute all of these men to the fullest.

I am actually concerned about which girls may have met a boy on 'the outside', and ended up trapped in sexual slavery in the armed compound. Maybe we'll find some of our missing teenage girls when this whole thing shakes out.

 

[mysteriew]

The bottom line is, CPS has the legal responsibility and authority to investigate any allegation of child abuse. And they received two calls from a child who said she was being abused.

As citizens, we are all bound by the search warrant. If presented with a search warrant, we must allow our persons and property to be searched. If we do not allow it, it will be searched by force. In other words, it was the FLDS refusing to allow the search that caused the show of force. All that is needed for obtaining a search warrant is probable cause- in this case it would be the child's two calls to the CPS making allegations of abuse. The search is for any evidence of the alleged crime.

It isn't a matter of Catholic vs. FLDS, if I am not mistaken there were a lot of search warrants served on the Catholic Churches during the investigation of child sexual abuses in the not too distant past. And the Catholic Churches honored those search warrants, even if they did protest.

But the comparisons of the FLDS and the Catholic Church is apt. Both are churches and both were plagued with allegations of child sexual abuse. But in the Catholic Church the abuse wasn't considered a divine right or a matter of doctorine. Even the Catholic Church has apoligised for their failure to protect their congregation and have made some amends. Perhaps they have not done all they could or should, but they did make some attempt. The FLDS locked their doors and tried to claim a divine right to be exempt from the search warrant.

 

[trixie]

Everybody knew they were there. I think it's interesting that all it took to get them out of there was one (or 2) phone call from a 16 year old girl. So if a 16 year old girl from every cult called authorities eventually all the cults would be eliminated? I don't think that is a bad thing. Women and children HAVE no civil liberties in those compounds. I wonder how many women and teen girls fell to their knees in prayers of gratitude when all this started happening? Most, I bet.

 

[Linda7NJ]

nevermind

 

[Floh]

Everybody knew they were there. I think it's interesting that all it took to get them out of there was one (or 2) phone call from a 16 year old girl. So if a 16 year old girl from every cult called authorities eventually all the cults would be eliminated? I don't think that is a bad thing. Women and children HAVE no civil liberties in those compounds. I wonder how many women and teen girls fell to their knees in prayers of gratitude when all this started happening? Most, I bet.

None, I bet. they are so insulated from the real world and so brainwashed they probably believe armageddon has arrived and everything they have been told about outsiders is true.

so any prayers now are for their good selves to return home. this is what i believe.

 

[SuziQ]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5677683.html

(snip)
"They huddled together. It was very obvious they were scared. They were non-responsive. They looked like deer caught in the headlights," said church leader Helen Pfluger, 59.
She estimates she spent at least 30 hours with the women and children over the weekend but said communications never rose above the most basic level.
"I felt like I was from Mars, that I was alien to them. There was not one thing we had alike, except that we were female and had children," she said.
Pfluger said the children dressed in 19th-century garb, did not know what crayons or breakfast cereal were, and that they were not accustomed to some of the food they were offered.
"Our food made some of the children sick. They are used to drinking raw milk and they asked for it," she said.
"When they had clothing needs, it was impossible to give them what they needed. Where are you going to find a long-sleeve, high-neck, loose-waist, long dress for a 3-year old girl?" she asked.
On Sunday, they were taken in buses 40 miles north to San Angelo's Fort Concho. The historic site has facilities to rent for social and business gatherings, and it also has a state office building that a tour guide said includes a child welfare office.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The children didn't know what CRAYONS WERE!

I know it may sound like a silly little thing, but that made me cry.

 

[Floh]

The children didn't know what CRAYONS WERE!

I know it may sound like a silly little thing, but that made me cry.

It's a great example of how insulated they are.

 

[believe09]

I would think that for the short term, it is more important to speak with these folks in a manner that they are accustomed to, and to obtain for them the things that they need, like if they don't have crayons, perhaps they are familiar with chalk and slates...I am not being flip, just using an example. I don't recall it being against FLDS beliefs to play, but I do not know. The adult women should be able to communicate/translate the needs of the children with an idea of common goods in a non compound society...like my kids drink raw milk and have never had processed food so please do not give them fruit loops...am I making sense?

And I think that they should bring in some folks from LDS who may be able to help them with a little more understanding....

 

[Linda7NJ]

I would think that for the short term, it is more important to speak with these folks in a manner that they are accustomed to, and to obtain for them the things that they need, like if they don't have crayons, perhaps they are familiar with chalk and slates...I am not being flip, just using an example. I don't recall it being against FLDS beliefs to play, but I do not know. The adult women should be able to communicate/translate the needs of the children with an idea of common goods in a non compound society...like my kids drink raw milk and have never had processed food so please do not give them fruit loops...am I making sense?

And I think that they should bring in some folks from LDS who may be able to help them with a little more understanding....

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8835442

People who have left sect go to Texas to help

They can explain the group's culture and comfort displaced women and children

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/07/2008 12:35:48 AM MDT


ELDORADO, Texas - Carolyn Jessop, once married to the man who oversees the FLDS church's besieged ranch, arrived Sunday in west Texas with two daughters she hoped to reunite with their half siblings.

Jessop, whose memoir Escape detailed her experiences in and departure from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, visited the Schleicher County Civic Center Sunday to explain the group's culture to authorities working with women and children taken from the YFZ Ranch this weekend.

Also in Texas: Elissa Wall, the young woman whose testimony sent sect leader Warren S. Jeffs to prison in Utah on convictions for rape as an accomplice, and Shannon Price of the Utah-based Diversity Foundation, which helps teens leaving the sect.

Jessop said that she thought she had seen one of her four stepdaughters on a school bus as it left Eldorado earlier in the day. "It would be monumental if I could see those girls after five years," she said.

Born and raised in the faith, Jessop became the fourth wife of Merrill Jessop when she was 18; he was 50. They had eight children together in Utah before she left him in 2003.

Betty, Jessop's oldest daughter, returned to the sect after she turned 18. Jessop said Betty, whom she speaks with regularly, does not live at the ranch. Merrill Jessop has been in charge of the YFZ Ranch for several years.

****more at link[/FONT]

 

[barb0301]

I would think that for the short term, it is more important to speak with these folks in a manner that they are accustomed to, and to obtain for them the things that they need, like if they don't have crayons, perhaps they are familiar with chalk and slates...I am not being flip, just using an example. I don't recall it being against FLDS beliefs to play, but I do not know. The adult women should be able to communicate/translate the needs of the children with an idea of common goods in a non compound society...like my kids drink raw milk and have never had processed food so please do not give them fruit loops...am I making sense?

And I think that they should bring in some folks from LDS who may be able to help them with a little more understanding....

I agree with you believe....somehow, they need to find a way to make this transition more comfortable for the women and children. It's a shame that the men couldn't have been removed and the women and children left at the compound where they could do their own cooking, have their own food, toys, clothing, bedding, etc. Since that didn't happen, it seems as if they should have some way to retrieve more of their belongings from the compound such as their clothing and children's toys. I wonder if Red Cross could come in and help with arranging food that is more what they are used to? It would be wonderful if they had their own cooking facilities there at the fort.

I wish there was someway I could offer help, but right now, they are not accepting any help from the community. They say there are no "unmet needs". I think they are probably working on how to make it more comfortable and are trying hard to recognize the differences in culture.

It's all such a shame, and so sad. My heart goes out to all the women and children. This is one story that is keeping me up at nights.

 

[SuziQ]

The below linked quote is what I'm afraid will happen. IMO, this could backfire bigtime. Also there are supposed to be briefings today.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3025493

No one can remember anything like this since the famous anti-polygamy raid in 1953 on the Utah-Arizona border. That operation led to a public backlash that set back anti-polygamy efforts for half a century.

 

[SuziQ]

Background on the Short Creek raid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_Raid