Was Burke involved?

[bettybaby00]

I think you are misinterpreting the document. All members of the family had to be ruled out by LE therefore it would not be accurate in a legal document to state that Burke was never viewed as a suspect. He had to be ruled out as a suspect.

That said, I think all the staging was a reaction from Patsy because she immediately assumed Burke was involved. The Ramsey household seemed to be ruled by Patsy, a narcissistic mother who was consumed with the image of perfect family. I think Burke is as much a victim as his sister and the little girl was killed by somebody who lurked around those ridiculous beauty pageants Patsy subjected her to.

BBM

I don't think so. This was part of a largeg discussion. The point being that r
This affidavit was about as legitimate as MLs exoneration.

 

[Tawny]

Again, what would be YOUR reaction if you found one child gasping on the floor and the other standing over his sibling with a hammer/torch/gun/whatever?

The natural reaction is to summon help. NO PARENT says "gee, now look at that. He's half killed her. Well, I better finish the job".

THAT is what I call Insane.

No one said they were sane for what they did. Honestly, I think one or both of them are extreme sociopaths, only capable of caring what happens to the individual self. They assumed JBR was dead or near death, and faced losing their last remaining child together if the truth got out about what BR did (may have done).

Would a rational, logical parent do what the R's did? NOPE! That's the point. They are not rational, logical people. They are calculating and manipulative people.

Apologies to all but this BDI really gets my goat.

How do you think it happened? No matter which way I play it in my head I get the same answer.

Burke could never have got JB into that basement. NEVER.

How do I think it happened? BR and JBR were involved in sibling molestation (it happens. a lot. more than is comfortable to talk about). He lured her to the basement (or this happened in her bedroom and she was moved by JR later), things got out of hand, he bashed her. The parents either heard the alleged scream or BR told them what happened. Who knows if they freaked out or not, but not everyone reacts the same to a panicked situation. I totally picture JR being the calm next to PR's storm. They told BR to go to bed, they'd take care of it, and that's why he knows nothing about the note, the ligatures, the staging etc.

That is all JMO, of course. Just my personal theory.

Can you explain why he was nonplussed in the morning? Why he asked nothing about his sister? Why the parents weren't worried an intruder would target BR next? NONE of that is normal behavior, since you're clearly concerned with what kind of behavior is "normal" in a situation like this. Can you answer to any of that? THAT behavior, IMO, is "insane".

 

[EastCoast]

I could explore BDI up to the point where PR and JR have made preparations for a guardian for him, expecting they might be arrested. And then possibly face charges that lead to the DEATH PENALTY. And becoming willing to see that possibility through without making legal arrangements of some sort to disclose the reality of a psychologically damaged son having murdered their daughter?

That type of concession and disclosure would have garnered them public empathy that should have swept the case out of any further media coverage, assured them of continued financial health, and would have kept JR a kingpin in his successful business endeavors, rather than sending him into a world of rejection and continued public damnation for himself and Burke after Patsy died.

If the R's covered for Burke to buy him, and themselves, a respectable future, it sure looks to me like that's the one thing in this crime they DIDN'T get away with.

But they did, it worked for them. JR and BR doing fine.

 

[otg]

The photo referenced earlier by DeDee that I had used to show approximate relative heights of JonBenet and Burke was from a photo shoot done by Judith Phillips, who later married “Doc” Miller’s (the attorney who wrote the book JonBenet Ramsey: Prostitution of Justice). Besides a professional photographer, Judith considered herself Patsy’s friend. Things change. Judith was a poster at our sister forum, and some of the things she posted about this photo can be found beginning at about page 12 of [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8098"]this thread[/ame] (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8098). Here are a few excerpts:

It was interesting doing the photo shoot of Patsy and all. I instruct my clients to wear whatever is comfortable and then plan the image they wish to project on film. When Patsy walked into the studio, I was a bit surprised at her outfit and those of Burke, Nedra and JB. I don't recall anyone else that I have ever photographed for the Motherhood book that showed up dressed to the hilt like the Ramsey family. Just an interesting observation.


At the time I was shooting photos for the Motherhood book and exhibition, I instructed each client to make their own decision on their apparel. In walked the RAMS family with full makeup and pagaent-like clothing. It just surprised me at that time.


My technique in studio photography is to record on film what is happening right before my eyes. I shoot alot of film during a session, usually 3-4 rolls of film (100-130 images). I don't wait to pose my subjects. I simply ask them to sit or stand, if they prefer. Then away I go...........


I was kind of going for the American Gothic look. Unlike in the painting where the husband and wife were holding a pitchfork, they all should have had tierras or holding a baseball bat, golf club and/or a garrote.
​

Here's the photo without the lines added:

 

[Tawny]

Such an awkward photo. No emotion.

 

[bettybaby00]

I could explore BDI up to the point where PR and JR have made preparations for a guardian for him, expecting they might be arrested. And then possibly face charges that lead to the DEATH PENALTY. And becoming willing to see that possibility through without making legal arrangements of some sort to disclose the reality of a psychologically damaged son having murdered their daughter?

That type of concession and disclosure would have garnered them public empathy that should have swept the case out of any further media coverage, assured them of continued financial health, and would have kept JR a kingpin in his successful business endeavors, rather than sending him into a world of rejection and continued public damnation for himself and Burke after Patsy died.

If the R's covered for Burke to buy him, and themselves, a respectable future, it sure looks to me like that's the one thing in this crime they DIDN'T get away with.

I can't follow the first part of your comment??? Sorry :blushing:

As for the rest....I'm not so sure about them garnering public empathy if BDI, and they told the truth. I used as an example the other day Adam Lanza. I know it's not the same, but in certain ways it is. What is similar that if BR was exposed, many in the public would have blamed Patsy, much like how they blamed Adam Lanza's mother. She would have been forever known as the "that women who raised that boy who brutally killed his sister." People would have questioned her, and asked what type of horrible mother she was to have produced such a killer.

The other day Adam Lanza's dad was interviewed by the New Yorker. He commented that he and his son seriously considered changing their last name b/c of the negative connotation, and they were even living with Adam for the last few years of his life.

As for a respectable future, it's true that they have had to live with some negativity, but IMO, most reports by the media portray them as victims, not only by the "intruder" but also by LE. Considering they could have faced a life time in prison, or BR could have been taken away from them, the fared ok....much better than JonBenet did.

 

[Tawny]

As for the rest....I'm not so sure about them garnering public empathy if BDI, and they told the truth. I used as an example the other day Adam Lanza. I know it's not the same, but in certain ways it is. What is similar that if BR was exposed, many in the public would have blamed Patsy, much like how they blamed Adam Lanza's mother. She would have been forever known as the "that women who raised that boy who brutally killed his sister." People would have questioned her, and asked what type of horrible mother she was to have produced such a killer.

RSBM THIS THIS THIS

And what was PR if not concerned with what people thought of her?

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

I don't think so. This was part of a largeg discussion. The point being that r
This affidavit was about as legitimate as MLs exoneration.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe any attorney would sign a court document stating a member of the household was never a suspect.

 

[EastCoast]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe any attorney would sign a court document stating a member of the household was never a suspect.

Was never a suspect and could be a future suspect, two different things, that IMO was a legal phrase stuck in the document to thwart possible disclosure regarding where the investigation was going. It depends on the date the legal document was filed, if at all.

 

[MyBelle]

No one said they were sane for what they did. Honestly, I think one or both of them are extreme sociopaths, only capable of caring what happens to the individual self. They assumed JBR was dead or near death, and faced losing their last remaining child together if the truth got out about what BR did (may have done).

Would a rational, logical parent do what the R's did? NOPE! That's the point. They are not rational, logical people. They are calculating and manipulative people.



How do I think it happened? BR and JBR were involved in sibling molestation (it happens. a lot. more than is comfortable to talk about). He lured her to the basement (or this happened in her bedroom and she was moved by JR later), things got out of hand, he bashed her. The parents either heard the alleged scream or BR told them what happened. Who knows if they freaked out or not, but not everyone reacts the same to a panicked situation. I totally picture JR being the calm next to PR's storm. They told BR to go to bed, they'd take care of it, and that's why he knows nothing about the note, the ligatures, the staging etc.

That is all JMO, of course. Just my personal theory.

Can you explain why he was nonplussed in the morning? Why he asked nothing about his sister? Why the parents weren't worried an intruder would target BR next? NONE of that is normal behavior, since you're clearly concerned with what kind of behavior is "normal" in a situation like this. Can you answer to any of that? THAT behavior, IMO, is "insane".

I don't believe it is common for a 9-year-old boy to awaken in the middle of the night to lure his little sister to the basement to molest her. In this case, I doubt there is even a shred of evidence to support your theory.

There are other explanations that would better explain Burke's reactions. Such as, he was a 9-year-old boy living in an imperfect family.

 

[MyBelle]

Was never a suspect and could be a future suspect, two different things, that IMO was a legal phrase stuck in the document to thwart possible disclosure regarding where the investigation was going. It depends on the date the legal document was filed, if at all.

I'll continue to hold the opinion that it was a legal document that needed to contain only true statements. Every member of a household must be ruled out as a suspect, especially when the house is the crime scene.

 

[Tawny]

Define "common".

"It is estimated that approximately 15% of all people report some kind of sexual activity with a sibling in childhood. More specifically, studies have shown that between 2% (Leder, 1991) and 4% (Finkelhor, 1999) of people have been sexually victimized by a sibling as the sexual contact involved some degree of forced or coercive activity." http://www.pandys.org/articles/siblingsexualabuse.html

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/111312p18.shtml

"It is typically only the most extreme cases requiring medical attention or police intervention that are reported. Many cases of sibling abuse occur "under the radar" on without parental or adult intervention." http://outofthefog.net/Relationships/SiblingAbuse.html

"TTypically sibling or cousin sexual contact is defined as "abuse" when it is marked by a five year difference; when the children are less than five years apart in age, the interaction is not deemed abusive unless force, coercion, injury, or penetration occurs. The criteria of force and/or coercion may be the most highly associated with negative outcomes, regardless of the specific sexual behavior (e.g., kissing, fondling, simulated intercourse, or exhibition) experienced (Haugaard and Tilly, 1988). Incidence of sibling or cousin sexual abuse varies greatly among studies, ranging from 10% to 40% among those reporting sexual abuse, although sibling and cousin sexual abuse are about equal in such samples (De Jong, 1988). Typically, the abuse begins when the victim is around six to seven years of age." http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/sib_abuse2.htm


I can keep c/p'ing if necessary.

 

[Tawny]

It is "far more common" than any other type of familial abuse.

 

[EastCoast]

I don't believe it is common for a 9-year-old boy to awaken in the middle of the night to lure his little sister to the basement to molest her. In this case, I doubt there is even a shred of evidence to support your theory.

There are other explanations that would better explain Burke's reactions. Such as, he was a 9-year-old boy living in an imperfect family.

Maybe the discrepancy in whether JB was asleep or awake, per what BR and JR said, when they got home that evening, is the answer. I think that she was awake and BR and JBR went to the kitchen for a snack, pineapple, and the head blow occurred there. Parents upstairs, exhausted, etc. BR had nothing to do with basement, coverup, etc.

 

[bettybaby00]

BR didn't have to get JBR into the basement. The headbash could have been delivered by BR in JBR's bedroom. One or both of the other R's brought her to the basement, then into the WC.

Or he could have said, ".....Psssst JonBenet, you have to be quiet, I know where mommy & daddy/or Santa hid more presents."

My brother used to say stuff like that to me all the time...difference was though, he actually did lead me to the secret stash!

 

[EastCoast]

I'll continue to hold the opinion that it was a legal document that needed to contain only true statements. Every member of a household must be ruled out as a suspect, especially when the house is the crime scene.

And that's the way it should be, but in light of what we know about the opposing attorneys, not just considering the R's attorneys but considering the DA and the LE at the time, and what transpired, the legal wording was a major factor in what each side would accept. As an example, look what happened in the GJ debacle and the wording and denial of that that recently came to light.

 

[otg]

(bbm)

otg,
BBM: ITA. I reckon this along with BR returning to bed faking being asleep tells you all three R's colluded in the death and staging of JonBenet.

Why do you think BR whacked JonBenet on the head, would he not be compounding any, then current, problems?

The sexual assault can be explained away as can the ligature asphyxiation, but the head blow, that escapes me.

Why did the parents not dial 911 for medical assistance, they must have known JonBenet was alive?


.

Was she? (I don't think so.) I don't buy Dr. Lucy's opinion that JonBenet was alive for up to 2 hours after the head blow. She based that opinion (according to Kolar) on cerebral edema and tissue necrosis. The amount of edema was affected by strangulation, and the amount of necrosis can be accelerated by sloppy autopsy procedure. She only had a fixed section of brain and photos to make her analysis, and it was in complete disagreement with nearly every other medical examiner consulted.

 

[EastCoast]

(bbm)Was she? (I don't think so.) I don't buy Dr. Lucy's opinion that JonBenet was alive for up to 2 hours after the head blow. She based that opinion (according to Kolar) on cerebral edema and tissue necrosis. The amount of edema was affected by strangulation, and the amount of necrosis can be accelerated by sloppy autopsy procedure. She only had a fixed section of brain and photos to make her analysis, and it was in complete disagreement with nearly every other medical examiner consulted.

nd that is why we still argue this point. Let us not forget, she IMO gave up the ghost, passed the buck, she cannot be more in the know than the ones who have studied, toiled, researched this case in depth. What is the issue here with her?

 

[EastCoast]

ML wanted an end to this, and IMO she exonerated, stated her point of view on the case. It is what it was. I don't blame her for wanting to bring Bolder Co, out of all that. Enough is enough for her and the good people that want to lay this to rest and consider it a cold case.

 

[Tawny]

Poor JonBenet