Was Burke involved?

[Linda7NJ]

If Burke was a vicious raping psychopath at 9, chances are he would be even worse now he's a grown adult.

From all appearances he has never repeated the violence of that night, before or since.

He's functional, has an education and a career and a girlfriend and a private life which seems to be going well despite his traumatic childhood.

Very often, time is the best judge. This case is an excellent example, general agreement is that the Ramseys were not able to be exonerated by Lacy. Emotion has died, common sense replaces it, and people slowly start to agree that if it looks like a snake, it probably isn't a kitten.

I suggest the adult Burke is PROOF that he wasn't a sociopathic sadist at age 9.

This crime looks like an adult in that house abused JB repeatedly, went too far on Christmas night, then tried to cover it up, forcing their likewise abusing spouse into helping.

Perhaps that's because, it's what happened?

Mary Bell murdered two children by age 11. She grew up to be a productive and law abiding member of society.

The literature doesn't support your assertions. Most children can and do grow up to be productive and law abiding.

I never called Burke a psychopath.


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[Chewy]

She did not. She's a hermit that hides from the world and has had years and years of documented mental health issues.

She just never killed again

Described by court psychiatrists as "intelligent, manipulative, and dangerous," Mary proved herself a problem inmate. In 1970, she fabricated charges of indecent assault against one of her warders, but the man was acquitted in court. In September 1977, she escaped from Moor Court open prison with another inmate, but the runaways were captured three days later.

http://murderpedia.org/female.B/b/bell-mary-flora.htm

She also confessed pretty quickly and committed several violent acts including vandalism and two murders

 

[Linda7NJ]

The partially opened gifts were part of the staging to explain why either child was in the basement.



I certainly do not believe late at night either of those children was in the basement playing doctor. I also do not believe Patsy opened a dictionary to incest because she didn't know what it meant. I think it was just more staging to implicate her son.

In another scenario, I have Patsy partially opening to gifts searching for the size 12 Bloomingdales panties that were supposed to be a gift for someone else, to put on JonBenet after cleaning her up.


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[Chewy]

Why? why not just put on her regular underwear?

 

[bettybaby00]

OMG...still raging I see.

 

[Linda7NJ]

She did not. She's a hermit that hides from the world and has had years and years of documented mental health issues.

She just never killed again



http://murderpedia.org/female.B/b/bell-mary-flora.htm

She also confessed pretty quickly and committed several violent acts including vandalism and two murders

Do you have a link for " years and years of mental health issues"?

She has a new identity and to my knowledge became a good mother and was never arrested again after she was released.


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[SapphireSteel]

Mary Bell murdered two children by age 11. She grew up to be a productive and law abiding member of society.

The literature doesn't support your assertions. Most children can and do grow up to be productive and law abiding.

I never called Burke a psychopath.


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Ahhh Mary Bell.

You may have never called Burke a psychopath, but Mary Bell was one and you are comparing them!

What sort of family life did Mary have? White, upper class, well off, nurtured?

No, she was dragged up by her ears by a prostitute in a deprived part of town and didn't know her father. Her mother forced her to have sex with men from age 4 and also attempted to kill Mary several times without success. God alone knows all the ways she was brutalised.

No comparison can be conceivably be made between Mary Bell and Burke Ramsey.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Why? why not just put on her regular underwear?

Hmmm why? Maybe Patsy wanted her in some clean underwear for a change? Maybe she didn't want to run back upstairs to fetch a pair of stained up ones she usually wore? Maybe knowing how much JonBenet wanted those panties, Patsy wanted to appease her somehow in death?

I don't know. I never claimed to have all the answers. I prefer to discus logical possibilities that fit the theory from all the other extraneous information available


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[Linda7NJ]

Ahhh Mary Bell.

You may have never called Burke a psychopath, but Mary Bell was one and you are comparing them!

What sort of family life did Mary have? White, upper class, well off, nurtured?

No, she was dragged up by her ears by a prostitute in a deprived part of town and didn't know her father. Her mother forced her to have sex with men from age 4 and also attempted to kill Mary several times without success. God alone knows all the ways she was brutalised.

No comparison can be conceivably be made between Mary Bell and Burke Ramsey.

Abuse and it's effects are in the perception of the victim.

Victims don't need to be poor, sold for sex, or tortured to turn into perps. They can be rich, spoiled, outwardly charming and still become perps.

Thankfully the vast majority of child victims never abuse anyone. Only a few identify with their abuser and become just like them.

Abuse isn't necessary or required to become a perp either.

All IMO


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[Chewy]

What part of "breaking out of prison" reads "law abiding" to you?

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:


In her old age she's law abiding but when she was Burke's age she was a mess.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What part of "breaking out of prison" reads "law abiding" to you?



:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:





In her old age she's law abiding but when she was Burke's age she was a mess.

She was a mess .....and once she was RELEASED she never committed another crime.




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[SapphireSteel]

And the evidence of BDI is....?

 

[Linda7NJ]

He arranged a boat, spent weeks preparing, made cement anchors, took her out to sea and dumped her overboard.



We don't know precisely how he killed her because of the condition of the body which different in Jonbenets case.



We line up the evidence, motive and timeline

I suggest you do the same in the case at hand. If you aren't capable of coming up with at least a few possible scenarios....I don't know what to tell you.
The problem with this case is there are TOO many possible scenarios.


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[Mama2JML]

I agree. It's a convoluted theory that makes no sense other than fit with the "anybody but the Ramseys" goal.

I just did a little research on the comment that JR's phone records weren't available. That's straight from Steve Thomas who said Trip DeMuth refused to sign a subpoena for the long distance phone records. Trip DeMuth later went to work for Ramsey's attorneys. And I'm pretty sure his daddy, Larry DeMuth was legal counsel for U S WEST. Those long distance records would have shown any phone calls made by Ramsey to their attorney or anybody else.

I think it is entirely possible the two-hour window John Ramsey mysteriously left his house was go to his office to call his attorney and the strategy was hatched.

BBM
Linda Arndt, 03.08.00 (LA v. BPD):

"25 Q. And you had lost track of John Ramsey for a

Page 117

1 period between 10:40 and twelve o'clock?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You didn't see him during that period of

4 time; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It's not correct?

7 A. That is not correct."​

 

[Tawny]

You implied it. What your theory is missing is the fact that even if BR hit her over the head and her body was crumpled on the floor, there was no way to tell she had been sexually abused. That didn't come up until autopsy. Kids hit each other over the head daily and the normal reaction of the parent isn't shame, it is to get immediate medical attention.

So the idea that a parent is going to find her daughter crumpled to the floor and immediately believe her 9-year-old hit her intentionally and the mother decided to cover it up by further mutilating the body because she wanted to protect him really makes no sense.

JMO

I did not remotely imply she would be more shamed by sibling abuse than parental abuse to her small daughter. How could I have implied that when I did not mention JR in that capacity AT ALL?

She possibly already KNEW or SUSPECTED the abuse, and I also didn't say PATSY mutilated JBR in the least. I said I think JR did the staging of the body.

If you're going to pick something apart, and accuse me of saying things I never said, at least read the entire post.

When you have to add "Maybe" it's because it is a weak argument. I suppose, based on your own experience, you can view that level of sexual depravity and moral corruption as something that could apply to the whole family but I think it is really pushing credibility to suggest the mother, father and nine year old boy were all equally sick and evil to the point that Burke could fool law enforcement in ways that Ted Bundy couldn't

Or, you add maybe because you don't have every single last detail and it's still a THEORY.

He didn't have to fool law enforcement. It's not like he was in an interrogation room being grilled. He was questioned lightly by police while eating a sandwich. He said he was asleep.

I suggest you do the same in the case at hand. If you aren't capable of coming up with at least a few possible scenarios....I don't know what to tell you.
The problem with this case is there are TOO many possible scenarios.


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I agree.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't believe Burke inflicted any head injury based on the circumstances we know. It was late at night and he was nine-years-old. I don't believe he reached for any bat or flashlight and I don't believe his sister was "horsing around" with that kind of energy.

Well... IIRC the time of death was somewhere around midnight. According to Burke he went to bed around 11...according to his parents it was around 9:30.

Quite a difference.

Burke said she walked in the house that night.

Patsy says John carried her in and up to bed. Then John went down to put together a toy with Burke for a few minutes.

John says he carried her upstairs and read to JonBenet.

Yet there's a bowl with pineapple and a glass with a tea bag with Patsy & Burke fingerprints. It wasn't there previously.

Patsy says there was no snack.
Patsy says JonBenet was zonked out.
Patsy denies the pineapple is even Ramsey pineapple.

The pineapple from the fridge matched the pineapple inside JonBenet matched, down to the rind.

Yet there's a bowl with pineapple and a glass with a tea bag with Patsy & Burke fingerprints. It wasn't there previously.

Patsy says Burke never owned a pair of Hi-tech boots.
Burke and someone else state he did.

.............


The morning.

Patsy and John both claim Burke slept though everything and new nothing.

Years later we learn Burke was awake that morning.

Why all the distancing, lies and throwing up roadblocks?



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[SapphireSteel]

Patsy and John lied about everything that night.

I personally think the oddities of the staging come from two people who didn't communicate, trying to work together.

I don't see Burke in any of the crime, nor the staging, nor the collusion, due to his comment the next morning on the 911 call.

I actually think they kind of forgot about Burke.

PR may have tried to incriminate him with the pocket knife as part of her disorganised thinking, before she settled on the Foreign Faction.

What seems certain is that neither prepared him before they dialled 911. If they had, he would have been silent, not asking awkward questions at awkward times in the background.

At the point of the 911 call, ie, AFTER the murder and staging, Burke did not know what his parents had "found".

 

[MyBelle]

If Burke was a vicious raping psychopath at 9, chances are he would be even worse now he's a grown adult.

From all appearances he has never repeated the violence of that night, before or since.

He's functional, has an education and a career and a girlfriend and a private life which seems to be going well despite his traumatic childhood.

Very often, time is the best judge. This case is an excellent example, general agreement is that the Ramseys were not able to be exonerated by Lacy. Emotion has died, common sense replaces it, and people slowly start to agree that if it looks like a snake, it probably isn't a kitten.

I suggest the adult Burke is PROOF that he wasn't a sociopathic sadist at age 9.

This crime looks like an adult in that house abused JB repeatedly, went too far on Christmas night, then tried to cover it up, forcing their likewise abusing spouse into helping.

Perhaps that's because, it's what happened?

Well said.

 

[Tawny]

Nobody has called Burke psychopath or sociopath. I'm honestly getting REALLY tired of the insinuation that that's what BDI theorists have been saying.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM
Linda Arndt, 03.08.00 (LA v. BPD):

"25 Q. And you had lost track of John Ramsey for a

Page 117

1 period between 10:40 and twelve o'clock?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You didn't see him during that period of

4 time; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It's not correct?

7 A. That is not correct."​

And that proves what exactly?